• NEW! LOWEST RATES EVER -- SUPPORT THE SHOW AND ENJOY THE VERY BEST PREMIUM PARACAST EXPERIENCE! Welcome to The Paracast+, eight years young! For a low subscription fee, you can download the ad-free version of The Paracast and the exclusive, member-only, After The Paracast bonus podcast, featuring color commentary, exclusive interviews, the continuation of interviews that began on the main episode of The Paracast. We also offer lifetime memberships! Flash! Take advantage of our lowest rates ever! Act now! It's easier than ever to susbcribe! You can sign up right here!

    Subscribe to The Paracast Newsletter!

Jacques Vallee

I don't pretend that my personal litmus test can absolutely explain away all cases of the paranormal, but I think that in order to make a case for something truly extraordinary, truly solid evidence must be presented. In the absence of that, my money is on the more prosaic explanations involving the human tendency to tell stories, seek attention, imagine things, outright lie, engage in wishful thinking, embrace religion and misinterpret the stimuli reported by their senses, to mention only a few of the ways we tend to get things wrong. Even one little piece of unambiguous evidence would completely change my mind. Just one.
I've always thought that part (if not most) of the UFO phenomenon would eventually be explained by sciences such as psychiatry and psychology. I'm not saying that most witnesses suffer from mental conditions or are compulsive liars but, after some years reading and analyzing sightings/experiences reports, I've concluded that a large section of their descriptions pertain to what is commonly refered to as altered states of consciousness (I'm not the only one at that, to be fair). The origin of these changes in perception is probably the great mystery. Does it originate in our physical environment (geological, meteorological, etc)? Is it caused by chemical changes in the percipients minds and bodies? Is it being controlled by an outside force/intelligence (whatever its origin might be)?
Questions such as these can't be seriously tackled by amateurs and self-taught hypnotists. The psychological factor in paranormal occurences has frequently been dismissed either by concentrating attentions on the "nuts and bolts" factor of the manifestations or by ignoring the often devastating after-effects of such experiences (changes in the witnesses' mood, worldview, personal life, etc). In short, I think that the first step to understand the UFO problem is to fully understand the complexities of its percipients (both psychological and physical). That process wiould certainly produce results that could be applied well beyond the paranormal field.
I am a skeptic. As such, I can't assume an inactive posture, waiting for "believers" to present the evidence I need to satisfy my standards. On the contrary, I must make my own inquiries and approach the subject from a demanding perspective, with enough doses of doubt and rationality. The worst thing to be is an armchair skeptic or believer.
 
There hasn't been a nice debate like this on the forums in a while - apart from one post that went too far, the discussions have been civil, despite the fact that people don't agree.
 
I think its really odd that the word "science" thrown about like its an institution, organization, or living thing. It isn't.

Science doesn't study the paranormal because science is people performing science. People do expensive and time consuming things like scientific investigation only when there is some gain involved. Generally speaking scientific investigation occurs when there are problems that other people are willing to pay to have solved. It gets down to money.

If someone is willing to pay for it they can get "real" scientific investigation performed on anything. To bemoan the lack of scientific findings about subjects that few see any return on the investment for is being unrealistic to say the least. Some might say doing so indicates a view of the world where money, time, and need are trumped by wants and desires.

I am fairly certain that there is a great deal of money being spent on exotic concepts, phenomena, and technologies. It is being done privately however and any information gained is proprietary. The general public will only see the results that trickle out indirectly as in many things that have their origins in the space program. The "science" is hidden behind a screen of counter-intelligence where the gullibility and willingness to believe is capitalized on and exploited.
 
All that said, the Kelly Cahill case is very interesting and I'd like to see it investigated by someone with a true skeptical bent.

I agree Macdaddy if you mean a "true skeptic." Just as Whitley Strieber (and I agree here also) need not apply neither should James Randi.

I consider myself a true skeptic. Although I admit my bias toward spirtual reality I am not a true believer. I have to see things for myself. I have seen things in the sky but like you they have not convinced me. I have not seen evidence that would sway me to the beleif in E.T. Still, the abduction (some anyway) cases are provocative as well as the areial reports of pilots and the trace evidence of folks such as Ted Phillips. The problem with science conducting research is (as T.O. and others have already stated) It takes money and grants and time. Then you have the personal agendas. I am at a point in my life where I search within myself and if some scientist or other person validates something I have felt or observed that's great. But, I don't hold out hope for disclosure or absolute scientific proof in this lifetime. Still, ya never know.
 
All that said, the Kelly Cahill case is very interesting and I'd like to see it investigated by someone with a true skeptical bent.

I agree Macdaddy if you mean a "true skeptic." Just as Whitley Strieber (and I agree here also) need not apply neither should James Randi.

I consider myself a true skeptic. Although I admit my bias toward spirtual reality I am not a true believer. I have to see things for myself. I have seen things in the sky but like you they have not convinced me. I have not seen evidence that would sway me to the beleif in E.T. Still, the abduction (some anyway) cases are provocative as well as the areial reports of pilots and the trace evidence of folks such as Ted Phillips. The problem with science conducting research is (as T.O. and others have already stated) It takes money and grants and time. Then you have the personal agendas. I am at a point in my life where I search within myself and if some scientist or other person validates something I have felt or observed that's great. But, I don't hold out hope for disclosure or absolute scientific proof in this lifetime. Still, ya never know.


I guess it depends on how you define the term, Tyder.
 
Yep, we all have our defintions I guess. :) But, I think most will agree that Streiber has a world view that he filters through. Randi has a world view that he filters through. But, then again we all do don't we? Still, I cringe when anybody be they believer or debunker try to out yell or out authority somebody else. I have seen different people take something like the so called "God" spot and a beleiver will say "See? we are hard wired to the truth" and a debunker will say "See? it's all natural selection" and neither has any real absolute proof. The debate continues. But, I do enjoy the civil exchange of ideas. Believe it or not I have learned some things here from both the so called beleivers and the so called skeptics. Nothing has changed my own world view since it's not quite that fragile. But it does make me think.
 
Witnesses, who've claimed over the years of having observed strange and weird things in the sky, are too often put down by skeptics as being unreliable. But which part is the most unreliable bit for Skeptics, the person telling the story, or is it, the event or sighting that is being called into question? I guess Skeptics would argue it is the Human being that is totally unreliable, not the event per-se, that may of course of happened, but it can be explained in a number of ways without looking for the paranormal answer.

In all cases that have been reported over a vast number of years, surely, and put it to the skeptics, some the witnesses gave an accurate account of, what they'd seen? As others have somewhat suggested the History of the World, is all about stories, so if witness testimony is so unreliable to go by can we trust history at all?

I guess, History of the last hundred or so years, can withstand the scrutiny or unreliability of witness testimony to events, since they're is a backing up of some recent history of yesterday so to speak, with video, film and there is greater access to the printed word today then ever before with (books, magazines, newspapers and the internet.

I can defend the recent history of UFO's reports, and the evidence so far accumulated since the 1950's, and on. Why? The evidence is far more than just words on paper, and you have to Understand 'MacDaddy' something that doesn't exist should never appear on film and on photographs ever, the fact that these Objects have no apparent identification markers, have an odd shape for flight, and the objects seen move at speeds faster, than any plane we know about should be able to, and people all the time are capturing images, and videos of these objects in the sky from around the world, and nobody can explain what it is people are seen, should give an honest- Skeptic pause shouldn't it?

It not that hard to understand "Science" is fairly sure photographs before the age of the computer were almost impossible to mess with, and I fairly sure, ordinary people in mass were not trying to hoax an event to get public attention, so surely some of the videos and photographs are capturing real-life unexplainable objects in the sky!

I would, if I wasn't an "Experiencer" have had a real hard time believing in the subject of UFO'S, but I am open-minded person, so if I had gone and researched some of the cases. I still-believe, I would have found much of the evidence, that there is out there in the public domain compelling. I believe it is wrong for so called Skeptics to believe "Everyone" who saw things in the sky, do not know what there looking at.

While it may be true, a witness is not educated enough to actually know what the object represents, but most-people are able-bodied enough to be able to describe what they saw in the sky, and in the majority of cases, give an honest description to someone who is willing to listen, without all the silly objections and obstructions.


In my world it safe to assume, the more witnesses there is to a UFO sighting, the better that case becomes, and people from all walks of life, should at least, have some wonder about what happened at the place, were people reported the usual sighting. We've had a number of those Cases which are compelling were video was taken (the Hudson Valley flap) is a perfect example of were thousands of people saw objects in the 1980's, never an honest explanation has ever been given to explain those sightings!

Vallée is not out to prove his theory over another, he has publicly stated that the "ETH" is a valid hypothesis, but what he has found, by doing relentless research into medieval tales of fairies, and wee-people, as some people often mention, that some of the actions of what ordinary people claimed in the past, does closely match the actions of the intelligence doing the abductions of recent times, that is a curious whatever peoples pet-theory is about this stuff, if the actions are the same, it could well turn out whatever the people witnessed back then is the exact same thing as what people see now, our vocabulary has changed, language spoken in the past is different to how we speak it today. The English language is a universal language today, so it much easier today for everyone to describe events that happened, and other cultures who speak a different language, to least understand what is being said.

I understand the history of the Island I live on, people might not be aware the Keltics had a language, but it was only spoken orally, nothing if anything was ever written down, so we virtually have no record of what actually took place back then, everything about themselves, was passed from one generation to the next by word of mouth, and by other cultures who came into contact with them like the Romans!

As for the Tuatha Dé Dannann (MacDaddy) fairies and wee-people. There is actual-real life history spanning back centuries way before the Birth of the Roman Empire. Historians in Celtic Countries who know the history, don't object to or discount a people called the Tuatha Dé Dannann existed, and they were often depicted as people, in the many records and books written by Monks in the 11th and 13th century, that are now in public and private ownership across the UK and Ireland. The argument among Historians is the accuracy of the tales that are depicted, especially since the 17th century, not all, but lot of them tales are talking about "Magic" being used.

They'd the ability to change the weather patterns, there is lot of weird stuff in the original tales, to go into now in one post. Here is just one. When the King of the Tuatha "Nuada" lost an Arm in fierce battle with the FIR-BOLG, his surgeon replaced that arm with a working silver one, he almost died from injury but he survived to do battle later!

Battles were often described in accurate detail with names and places and Frankly the vivid descriptions of what just can't be denied.

Some of the original tales that were written by the Monks have been changed to suit a certain point of view. This is one example. It said when Tuatha Dé Dannann arrived in Ireland. It said they arrived in "Dark Clouds" upon the highest mountain in Ireland, and conquered Ireland from the Inhabitants already here, the "Fir-bolg". It later accounts is said the Tuatha arrived in Ships from the sea totally different to the original accounts. The Tuatha later, fought another group called the "Formori",, which is claimed in tales and legends were living in a sea paradise, not above, but under the oceans of the planet. This stuff would be tough reading for many lot of the tales were in Latin, and translated later, but the believe of the Monks who wrote these tales, is there was truth to lot of what was claimed by peoples in Ireland long ago!

There is strong possibility, the Fir bolg and Formori, is from were the wee-people legends originated from, not the Tuatha Dé Dannann. The Tuatha were described as a looking very Human, Blonde hair and pales skin, almost identical to the Nordics that people claim they have seen in contact cases!


Vallée book "Passport to Magonia" I have never read it, but from what I understand.

Vallée, referenced many tales from Ireland, that were hundreds of years ago in the past. The tales and legends as I have discussed are much older then that, we have records from the Roman era that talk about the Tuatha Dé Dannann, and most importantly we have a record to look at that came from the Monks, in the monasteries, lot of the monasteries, were build at locations that were close to towns and villages, were the ordinary folk live. They'd, and probably were of the few who had the ability, to write and document history in medieval times, and they'd done so.

What business would Monks have in creating tales that do go against everything they believe to be true? Vallée probably, his research came from reports that came from the Monks and Priests, and people who had to ability to read and write back then.

I ask MacDaddy, this Photograph have never been debunked or proven to be hoaxed. What would be your view or current understanding on what is show in the Photograph? The Photograph was taken in the 90's during the Belgium flap over twenty years ago. Please enlighten me to what you personally see here!
 

Attachments

  • walloniabelgium.jpg
    walloniabelgium.jpg
    23.9 KB · Views: 34
The thing about stuff caught on video and photographs - no one is ever saying that what is seen does not exist. It's when people insist that they know it's an alien space craft, or whatever. There's no proof of that. That's what skeptics like Shermer and Randi are saying - and I agree with them.
 
The thing about stuff caught on video and photographs - no one is ever saying that what is seen does not exist. It's when people insist that they know it's an alien space craft, or whatever. There's no proof of that. That's what skeptics like Shermer and Randi are saying - and I agree with them.
As the portuguese historician and UFO investigator Joaquim Fernandes once said: "We're not at a point where we can say what the UFO phenomenon is. We can only say what it isn't."
 
The thing about stuff caught on video and photographs - no one is ever saying that what is seen does not exist. It's when people insist that they know it's an alien space craft, or whatever. There's no proof of that. That's what skeptics like Shermer and Randi are saying - and I agree with them.

Ya, far enough take your point, but the problem is your friends 'Shermer and Randi, have never proven we have not been visited, surely anything that is not real, can be proven with evidence to be a lie! anyone can just say no way that happened, and here is the some problems with the testimony of the witness, but witness testimony alongside images or video of what happened to them is compelling stuff. Nobody, is sure we are dealing with Aliens, but we have to speculate based on the evidence, so far gathered, no nation on earth has the technology I have seen, and I am convinced of that, you can discount my opinion. Doesn't really matter to me, but I am pretty sure some of the technology, that has been seen, was not build by humans occupying the world today. You will never understand from were i come from , because you have never been in my shoes, anybody on here can say they saw things, but I know I have, it not belief system for me. I don't believe in it, I know it is real no need for belief.
 
Ya, far enough take your point, but the problem is your friends 'Shermer and Randi, have never proven we have not been visited, surely anything that is not real, can be proven with evidence to be a lie! anyone can just say no way that happened, and here is the some problems with the testimony of the witness, but witness testimony alongside images or video of what happened to them is compelling stuff. Nobody, is sure we are dealing with Aliens, but we have to speculate based on the evidence, so far gathered, no nation on earth has the technology I have seen, and I am convinced of that, you can discount my opinion. Doesn't really matter to me, but I am pretty sure some of the technology, that has been seen, was not build by humans occupying the world today. You will never understand from were i come from , because you have never been in my shoes, anybody on here can say they saw things, but I know I have, it not belief system for me. I don't believe in it, I know it is real no need for belief.

It's frustrating to read something like that. You can't prove a negative! It's not up to them to prove the claimant wrong - it's up to that claimant to prove he or she is right.
Randi has done plenty do debunk frauds on live TV - go to youtube and search. The UFO thing is more difficult but anytime someone has said they have definitive proof, they have been proven to be liars - e.g. Billy M.
 
It's frustrating to read something like that. You can't prove a negative! It's not up to them to prove the claimant wrong - it's up to that claimant to prove he or she is right.
Randi has done plenty do debunk frauds on live TV - go to youtube and search. The UFO thing is more difficult but anytime someone has said they have definitive proof, they have been proven to be liars - e.g. Billy M.

Your asking us who believe to prove the unexplainable, that is downright silly. If someone had the answers we would not be discussing the topic as we do now! The truth and just my opinion, can only come from the intelligence itself, everything else is just rumor. So far the intelligence behind it all, Has no wish to interact with everyone and make everyone aware, so take issue with the intelligence not me. I'm only here to figure out what is going on, I have limited knowledge, i have not been given special messages and not had interactions with Aliens. All I am sure of is, the technology is beyond what we could be capable of, experiences I have had, have given me some insight, but I never claimed to have the prove skeptics need or want!
 
It's frustrating to read something like that. You can't prove a negative! It's not up to them to prove the claimant wrong - it's up to that claimant to prove he or she is right.
It must be quite difficult for someone who had a "paranormal experience" to cope with that on a rational basis. Many people came into the UFO field after seeing something they weren't able to explain and articulating that personal side with the detachment needed to approach the phenomenon may prove to be impossible. For them, skepticism or even debunking may seem like a disrespectful thing generating an attitude of "I know what I saw and who are you to tell me that it wasn't real?". Human behavior and reactions are a conundrum of their own.
 
Nobody, is sure we are dealing with Aliens, but we have to speculate based on the evidence, so far gathered, no nation on earth has the technology I have seen, and I am convinced of that, you can discount my opinion

Don't you think it is a bit unrealistic to think that anyone in the general public has even a small inkling of what technology is being developed or deployed by government sponsored research institutions? To think a technology or object is of alien or non-human origin because it isn't commonly known is a incredible and unfounded leap to make IMHO. In the case of most products of weaponizable technology we'll know about it only after it is deployed openly, becomes obsolete, or something else has taken its place. I think its safer to just chalk these things up as unknown and since as far as we know, all manufactured technological objects are manufactured by human beings, it is not a reckless or irrational thing to seek to attribute them to human activity until proven otherwise.
 
I've always thought that part (if not most) of the UFO phenomenon would eventually be explained by sciences such as psychiatry and psychology. I'm not saying that most witnesses suffer from mental conditions or are compulsive liars but, after some years reading and analyzing sightings/experiences reports, I've concluded that a large section of their descriptions pertain to what is commonly refered to as altered states of consciousness (I'm not the only one at that, to be fair). The origin of these changes in perception is probably the great mystery. Does it originate in our physical environment (geological, meteorological, etc)? Is it caused by chemical changes in the percipients minds and bodies? Is it being controlled by an outside force/intelligence (whatever its origin might be)? Questions such as these can't be seriously tackled by amateurs and self-taught hypnotists. The psychological factor in paranormal occurences has frequently been dismissed either by concentrating attentions on the "nuts and bolts" factor of the manifestations or by ignoring the often devastating after-effects of such experiences (changes in the witnesses' mood, worldview, personal life, etc). In short, I think that the first step to understand the UFO problem is to fully understand the complexities of its percipients (both psychological and physical). That process wiould certainly produce results that could be applied well beyond the paranormal field.

F-C, your pithy post pierces right to the heart of this debate. This could be the start of a beautiful friendship.
 
Don't you think it is a bit unrealistic to think that anyone in the general public has even a small inkling of what technology is being developed or deployed by government sponsored research institutions? To think a technology or object is of alien or non-human origin because it isn't commonly known is a incredible and unfounded leap to make IMHO. In the case of most products of weaponizable technology we'll know about it only after it is deployed openly, becomes obsolete, or something else has taken its place. I think its safer to just chalk these things up as unknown and since as far as we know, all manufactured technological objects are manufactured by human beings, it is not a reckless or irrational thing to seek to attribute them to human activity until proven otherwise.

You bring up some good points, but it not relative to my experiences! The only way you could ever really understand my view on this is, if you were actually in my shoes.

No matter, how much I explain my experiences, with words and language. You'll never get it, I'm not mocking your intelligence, you are intelligent, but my experiences to fully understand them, you'd would have to have been there, and personally guarantee you, you would get what I am saying straight away! Unfortunately that is not the case, so what can I do?
 
I think its really odd that the word "science" thrown about like its an institution, organization, or living thing. It isn't. Science doesn't study the paranormal because science is people performing science. People do expensive and time consuming things like scientific investigation only when there is some gain involved. Generally speaking scientific investigation occurs when there are problems that other people are willing to pay to have solved. It gets down to money. If someone is willing to pay for it they can get "real" scientific investigation performed on anything. To bemoan the lack of scientific findings about subjects that few see any return on the investment for is being unrealistic to say the least. Some might say doing so indicates a view of the world where money, time, and need are trumped by wants and desires. I am fairly certain that there is a great deal of money being spent on exotic concepts, phenomena, and technologies. It is being done privately however and any information gained is proprietary. The general public will only see the results that trickle out indirectly as in many things that have their origins in the space program. The "science" is hidden behind a screen of counter-intelligence where the gullibility and willingness to believe is capitalized on and exploited.

Excellent points. Science will nearly always follow the money. Places like MIT and the east and west coast elite universities spin off scientific start-ups like mushrooms on a damp lawn. The very fact that there is little if any scientific pursuit of paranormal topics is an indication that the topics probably do not have much potential for exploitable knowledge. It's already well-established that humans will cling to strange beliefs like barnacles and that fact is being amply exploited (just listen to the ads on the Paracast or note the massive amounts of time and money devoted to religious pursuits of all stripes). Beyond that, it's slim pickings. It seems to me that anyone who makes a real breakthrough in subjects like ESP, UFOs or the existence of tricksterish entities (to name just three) would stand to make silly amounts of reputation and money. The fact that our best and brightest (and most money-hungry) universities expend very little effort in these fields suggests to me that they have concluded that there just isn't much chance of there being anything useful to discover. They might be wrong, but they have a pretty good track record of shifting their resources to the right places.

---------- Post added at 01:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

Human behavior and reactions are a conundrum of their own.

Again, this is where I believe we'll find most of our answers. Very good post!
 
I have to respectufully disagree with you on that. There is ample evidence from such folks as Sheldrake, Chris Carter, Rhine Institue, University of Virginia, John Mack, Ian Stevenson and other military and private funded institutions that there is "something" more than chemical reactions to our reality. Please don't turn this into a debunking war cause yeah I understand not every researcher agrees with everybody else. Just trying to say there is legitimate work and people doing work. However, I do agree that if you follow the money and the lack of respect and threat to a carreer you have one or two of the reasons that mainstream science isn't to keen on pursuing such studies. I think private well funded research has a better chance of finding "proof" because of the expense and hits to reputations. Also, I have had expereinces (don't worry to other long time posters I'm not gonna go into it again here) that fly in the face of reductionism. Once you've had em you might not have all the answers. But, you realize that "debunkers" don't have em either.
 
Your asking us who believe to prove the unexplainable, that is downright silly.

Not silly. Many on this forum claim that these things are explainable --- by tricksters, aliens, cryptos --- so they are being asked to prove these explanations. It is not too much to ask that these explanations be backed up by good hard evidence. Speculations are fun, but many on this forum seem to base their world-view on these speculations and that's what's downright silly.
 
Back
Top