Jacques Vallee

[Kieran]

I understand. And just to be clear, I am not doubting that you had an experience. I am questioning your conclusions about them. There is a difference. I also think you are engaging in "special pleading" for what its worth.

In the same breath, you don't doubt I had an experience, but you do question my conclusions about that experience. Well Sir, there is hint of hypocritical posturing on your behave. Ok firstly, I play the game with you. Just to let you know, i have had more than five experiences, all but two, were UFO sightings. Three of those experiences, I have posted, previously in lot of detail. I think you should say what you feel in plain language, and would it be much easier for both of us.

You doubt my conclusions, so basically you doubt the experience in the way I tell it! Well I am perfectly happy to avoid arguing with you, about what the experiences mean to me specifically, if you feel the need to disbelieve my "Opinions" perfectly fine with me! But the only opinions, that will ever matter to me, would be the opinions of the handful of people, who were there at the times, I witnessed these UFO's, OK, if they had a different opinion to me, and said, hang on Kieran, that never happened, or I see it differently. I would have to question my conclusions greatly, but it has been a numbers of years since the most strangest sighting occurred, and none of the people "Ever" doubted what I said to be true, all saw the same thing as me. Well that is what 'they told me anyway!

I can't be one hundred per cent confident, like everyone else, who is a critical thinker it was "Aliens" that word is such a loaded term, but whatever I saw, was in my "Opinion" Alien to the planet and me, thats my opinion. You question my conclusions, that is perfectly fine, like I said above, I have no evidence to give to you, to prove what I am saying is correct, so your fully entitled to disagree to a point, as long you don't get stubborn about making your point known to me!

There is number of factors, and reasons, why I have the believe it was an intelligence, basically non human. I will just mention a couple. My weirdest sighting occurred in a place, were there was no logical reason for me to have that sighting there, when you often say "Government" you are referring to your Government, and its Institutions you respect maybe not? I live in different political system with different views, there is no Military industrial complex in Ireland, I do not belong to the community, you often reference. The technology I have seen "Visually" had no business been were it was, unless it was belong to intelligence that was non Human. The technology that I saw is only ever seen by UFO witnesses, I have read reports in way that are similar, but nothing I have ever read has matched my sighting back then in 1993.

The technology to my non trained eye was technology, it might not have been, but these objects around four were of different colors shaped like long School rulers, one changed to form another shape, and all four disturbed the sky causing a shock of some kind, the sky was basically pulsating for more than minute, this is just a short version of what happened. Also my sighting was part of actual UFO flap that occurred, and was documented by three separate Countries (Ireland England and France) My sighting was March 30 1993, Official records from the "Ministry of Defense" related to these sightings are out in the public domain now. Nick Pope calls the incident over England "The Cosford Incident" You should really check that out?

I posted a report from Ireland about the UFO flap in 1993, (. In that report, a place that is only a couple miles away from were I live was mentioned. Two on patrolled Garda (policemen) observed a craft in the sky over a field near telephone lines, a couple of hours before I had my sighting, it was object with one light in the front and two and the back and made no noise, it was shaped like a boomerang or triangle. My sighting on the same day as you know, was totally different. There a number of other reasons why I believe what I do, but hopefully this might help you?

 

[trainedobserver]

In the same breath, you don't doubt I had an experience, but you do question my conclusions about that experience.

All I'm saying is I don't know what the origin if you have experienced is and I don't think you can know that either. Maybe I should have said I doubt the certainty of your conclusions. I really didn't mean to be insulting and if I was it was a failing on my part.

I can understand why you might have an impression one way or another and would be going with it. I don't really have a problem with the possibility of non-human intelligences. I'm just, in my own thinking at least, trying to come to terms with a lot of the cultural programming aspects along side the very real military intelligence involvement in perpetuating the non-human origin speculation. It could very well have been of non-human origin but I think there is reason to at least consider the possibility that it was intended to be perceived as such and realize an observer on the ground would have little way of knowing. Maybe I'm betraying my hopes that non-human intelligences aren't visiting us I don't know. But I think we can agree you experienced something that appeared to be of non-human origin. However, I just don't see how anyone can say for certain what its origin or nature truly was given the circumstances. It's certainly not meant to be indicative of anything other than the uncertainty of this whole UFO business.

Thanks for mentioning Cosford.

 

[Kieran]

I don't know how to respond to this. Can you tell me some vividly described legends that you don't believe? Do you believe that Mohammed flew up to heaven on a winged horse in front of thousands? Does Thor hurl thunderbolts? Zeus? If you don't believe that Medusa had a head full of snakes and could turn people to stone, on what basis do you doubt it? I'm not trying to be disrespectful here, but you seem to believe in some really out there stuff. I can see where the photograph you posted would affect a person like you very viscerally, but I really can't get too excited about it. I wish you all the best, I do. You seem like a nice person.

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---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

!

Your trying to draw me out, good try. Ok I play with you to see what Happens! Love all those analogies you come up with have to admit some of them made me laugh!

I do believe in legends not all, I look for historical evidence, and Archaeological information, which may prove a legend!, but this are two important areas, I obviously look for before i even waste my time researching a mystery, that is given very little or no- attention by the historical academics community. I'm only wasting my time with you (I believe you know that already), it is the believe of most if not all skeptics, there is no mysteries to history, history is linear, i on the otherhand always seem to find bumps, and curves when I research human history? I personally believe there is a grain of truth to the legends of Ireland long ago, but your tone shows you have ruled against that been the case. Fine no point wasting my time, and yours trying to convince you there!

You mention a few stories, and do I believe in them. Ok Mohammed flying up to heaven on a winged horse, I have no reason to believe or disbelieve, if i put this tale through my filtering process, I say it has religious feeling to it. Do i believe Mohammed was a messenger from a God called Allah, personally just my opinion I doubt he was, well he probably exploited the idea of God for his own gain, but the idea of God itself, it not something that I challenge, it could be very- possible a supreme being is out there somewhere, or around somewhere who knows. Is this literally an accepted event by Muslims do you know, I have never looked into it so I ask you for information!

You bring up Thor and Zeus. Do I a literally believe Thor once lived, nope I personally have to reason to believe he existed, the legends in the "Ragnorak" are however extremely interesting. Thor, Odin, Freyr, and other Norse gods are referenced heavily in old Norse traditions. The most interesting legend, is the legend about the end of a cycle on earth, were a flood destroys everything on the earth, and the life of many is ended, but the earth later reemerges, it almost identical description to what happened to the Planet during the "Great Flood" that was depicted inside the pages of the Bible.

Do i literally believe in many stories about Zeus? Maybe you should re-ask that this way!

Do I believe the legends that Greeks handed down to be true! Personally lot of it reads like fiction including the legend of Medusa. For the Greeks, as a civilization, the populace literally believed Zeus was real, and was the father of all Mankind. Greek culture build numerous temples for Zeus, which the Greeks conducted daily worships at, now do I believe in God, I personally have never seen evidence for whatever God is, but how many people worldwide today pray to their God!, the Greeks were doing the same thing in Antiquity times as we do today in modern times. People might not be aware of this Zeus is the same God human beings pray to in churches, we just don't call him Mr Zeus Anymore, the Romans renamed Zeus, Jupiter the Roman god, and Jupiter became God, once Rome became Christen after the removing of paganism.

I only posted that picture, you'd been a skeptic and all, find out what would be your opinion on it! You cleverly avoided answering the question, but by Cleverly not answering it, you left a bad impression. So I ask you again in a different way. Those that image not intrigue you, if it doesn't well, I will stop pestering, and move to something else, that might yet get you stimulated!

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

My friend, I was in the army. I went active duty in 1975, but spent most of my military career in Germany and never saw any combat. I’m sure your combat experience makes you more qualified than me to speak for all Cold War vets. Still, I worked with a great many other soldiers and I have to tell you that we made a lot of mistakes in judgment and perception, probably at just about the same rate as civilian humans. No, I don’t think many of us are insulted by the “crappy lighthouse theory” because very few of us think of ourselves as godlike observers incapable of getting caught up in the moment and making mistakes. There are too many instances of friendly fire mishaps to give the lie to that belief.

I was never stationed at Bentwaters but I’ve been there. That doesn’t make me an expert, but I do have a feel for the terrain. The lighthouse light would have appeared fairly low in the forest because that area is at a much higher elevation than sea level. How come UFO buffs always leave out the testimony of other soldiers stationed there at the time who have stated that nothing much was going on? Only a very few soldiers claim that something paranormal happened and most of the rest kind of shake their heads and chuckle. UFO buffs are very selective about the evidence they report.

But to get back to your comments about my supposed disrespect of Cold War vets. I have known many blowhards like you who think that it’s cool to substitute pseudo-patriotic attacks for reasoned arguments. It’s not cool. It makes you look like a turd. You’re not a turd, are you? Then stop posting like one.

First of all I never said I was Cold War Veteran nor a serviceman or combat experience but I have experience terrorist attack on military installations as well other family members which I rather call horrid experience and my family are career Cold War Veterans who saw combat and served alongside USA & NATO Cold War veterans. I disagree with your comments blowhards & pseudo patriotic statement which is political correctness BS. Your thoughts on the lighthouse light theory is misguided and COL Halt was a eyewitness who saw this object and you telling me highly qualified professional servicemen in charge of Nuclear Weapons could not make out the difference between LIGHTHOUSE light & UFO which managed to land and then leave impressions in the ground give me a break listen to the podcast interviews, read Mr Hasting UFO Washington Press Conference 'testimonies' that right legal documents by these Cold War Veterans who swore a oath and by the way thank you for service. I agree there is historical incidents of military personnel who are lose cannons regards shooting episodes as the same in civil society. Also those who have embellished careers in the service and those who impersonate Veterans which are SCUM regards stolen valor.


Sending best wishes to all USA & NATO servicemen and women who are serving at home and oversees during this Xmas season,

 

[MacDaddy]

I only posted that picture, you'd been a skeptic and all, find out what would be your opinion on it! You cleverly avoided answering the question, but by Cleverly not answering it, you left a bad impression. So I ask you again in a different way. Those that image not intrigue you, if it doesn't well, I will stop pestering, and move to something else, that might yet get you stimulated!

Well, if that picture has a good back-story, I might be interested. Right now, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. Can you give me the details about who took it and when and what the paranormal claim is?

By the way, you sound like you might get into the Jamesons a little bit now and then, am I right? I myself am a big fan of the stuff since a trip to the Emerald Isle two years ago. Slainte!

 

[SRL+]

When listening to Dr. Salisbury's account of Junior Hicks seeing the shed and not a trailer that the bulls had been placed I really wonder what the true account is.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

By the way, you sound like you might get into the Jamesons a little bit now and then, am I right? I myself am a big fan of the stuff since a trip to the Emerald Isle two years ago. Slainte!

Kudos to that. Jamesons is a truly great whisky! I also like the excellent Irish beer Guinness.

 

[Kieran]

Well, if that picture has a good back-story, I might be interested. Right now, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. Can you give me the details about who took it and when and what the paranormal claim is?

By the way, you sound like you might get into the Jamesons a little bit now and then, am I right? I myself am a big fan of the stuff since a trip to the Emerald Isle two years ago. Slainte!

Shouldn't, you know this story already, it is afterall , one of the best-documented UFO incidents on record. I can't do all the work for you!

Type into google, the Belgium Triangle 1990.

You'll Receive the information about the whole incident for your viewing pleasure. What it is supposed to be?.. what does it look like to you? To me, it looks like a craft of unknown origin that has never been identified to date! I never said it represents something paranormal, but to me, it does show a craft of unusual shape- that no wings no visible windows, and that object was spotted in Belgium airspace not by hundreds well thousands in the late 80's and 90's, well the Photograph has been in the public domain for twenty odd-years, it is considered by lot of people, even I Guess Skeptics to be genuine, it has never been debunked by people you represent.

So what would be your take on it? Who do you think that object belongs to in your opinion? Officially the most powerful nation militarily and economically in the world, has denied it belongs to them, if that is true, we are left with very few options to consider. Someone most own it!. and if does not object belong to us as a species, it most be belong to a non-human intelligence, well it not that hard to fathom, if you understand the facts that are currently out there about the incident.

I sound!, like I get into the Jameson's a little bit now and again, odd phrasing, Well I don't believe you have ever met me! I phrase stuff wrong all the time no biggie. Actually, I do drink, but no way could my little stomach handle such tough whiskeys. I drink only at the weekends, maybe every one or two weeks, and it be light beers like Budweiser. I believe I get my drink habits from my mother, she doesn't take fondly to people who fall all over the place after a drinking session. In Ireland their is a culture-of drinking, but socially, it not that bad as some people outside the country believe, people enjoy their weekends, but the majority after the weekends, ending are too busy to continue drinking, and most are fairly worn out from drink after the weekend anyway.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Yes a little whiskey is nice and hot toddy for a bad cold

 

[Kieran]

Yes a little whiskey is nice and hot toddy for a bad cold

I have, heard that over the years from other sources, I tend to just take a UNI-FLU medical tablet to get over it. I haven't had the Flu or a Cold in four years strange enough as that sounds to someone.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

I have, heard that over the years from other sources, I tend to just take a UNI-FLU medical tablet to get over it. I haven't had the Flu or a Cold in four years strange enough as that sounds to someone.

That's interesting and how many do you take during a bad cold?

Yes an old Scottish recipe for Hot Toddy :2 Tablespoons of Fresh honey, One small stick of Cinnamon , Teaspoon of Lemon Juice , 1 Clove & Double or Triple shot of top of the shelf whiskey and hot water.
If doesn't relive your symptoms it get you drunk
Clause Adults only

 

[Kieran]

That's interesting and how many do you take during a bad cold?

Yes an old Scottish recipe for Hot Toddy :2 Tablespoons of Fresh honey, One small stick of Cinnamon , Teaspoon of Lemon Juice , 1 Clove & Double or Triple shot of top of the shelf whiskey and hot water.
If doesn't relive your symptoms it get you drunk
Clause Adults only

You take four tablets each day not recommended to take more, one yellow one it just Vitamin C and the other one is large lilac color tablet. It works wonders I not sure, if it sold in Australia, if that is were you currently live, just ask someone in the chemist for it, and see is it sold in your region of the world!

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Well, if that picture has a good back-story, I might be interested. Right now, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. Can you give me the details about who took it and when and what the paranormal claim is?

By the way, you sound like you might get into the Jamesons a little bit now and then, am I right? I myself am a big fan of the stuff since a trip to the Emerald Isle two years ago. Slainte!

Are we talking about the Belgium triangle here? That's one of the most famous UFO cases ever. Really don't see how you can go onto a UFO board and start arguing if you don't know what that is. That would be like me arguing on a physics board without ever having heard of relativity. But anyway, the Belgium triangle had thousands of witnesses, was tracked by 5 different radar stations, was intercepted by 2 F-16s which both painted it on their on-board radar systems as well. One achieved a lock-on. When it did the craft immediately dived with such speed that the g-forces would be sufficient to crush any human pilot (I'm going off of memory here but I think it might have been 46 gs or something like that. Like I said going off the top of my head so that could be wrong.). The craft was described by witnesses to disappear from one spot and reappear in another, to hover, to suddenly accelerate with impossible speeds, etc. A photograph was taken and so was a video by a news crew (The photo is everywhere but the video isn't as close-up and is much more difficult to find.). A press conference was held by the Belgium armed forces confirming all of this and they admitted they didn't have a clue what in the hell it was but was certain it had been there. The picture is one of the most striking UFO pics (Very close. Another one I put up there with it as being a very important UFO photograph is the 1971 Lago de Cote, Costa Rica pic taken from a mapping plane.) I've seen and it has held up under scrutiny.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

Are we talking about the Belgium triangle here? That's one of the most famous UFO cases ever.

The Belgian triangular-shaped UFO sightings in 1989 and 1990 are certainly one of the most famous and best documented group of cases in history. The Belgian Air Force investigated it and presented the results in an official report relased to the media. I was a kid when those sightings occured and I still remember buying a french "Science et Vie" magazine where the case was explored.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

The Belgian triangular-shaped UFO sightings in 1989 and 1990 are certainly one of the most famous and best documented group of cases in history. The Belgian Air Force investigated it and presented the results in an official report relased to the media. I was a kid when those sightings occured and I still remember buying a french "Science et Vie" magazine where the case was explored.

I'd guess it was a secret military vehicle.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

I'd guess it was a secret military vehicle.

Yep, never mind that the Belgium authorities, those who would be in a position to know, say that's impossible. What's important is that angelo has his religion to adhere to.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

I'd guess it was a secret military vehicle.

Basing my assessment on some of the witnesses statements and on the official report by the Belgian Air Force (including ground and on plane radar tracking data) that I read a few yeas ago I'd say it qualifies as an UFO or UAP, since the origin, characteristics and nature of the phenomenon haven't yet been matched with any known artificial or natural manifestation.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Yep, never mind that the Belgium authorities, those who would be in a position to know, say that's impossible. What's important is that angelo has his religion to adhere to.

It's a guess. It doesn't mean it's right. It is certainly more plausible that an alien spaceship as a way to explain what is truly a UFO. And this case is definitely a UFO. I just doubt that the extraterrestrial/non-human explanation is correct. Is that better?

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

Basing my assessment on some of the witnesses statements and on the official report by the Belgian Air Force (including ground and on plane radar tracking data) that I read a few yeas ago I'd say it qualifies as an UFO or UAP, since the origin, characteristics and nature of the phenomenon haven't yet been matched with any known artificial or natural manifestation.

Exactly. I'm only guessing here. It's definitely still a true UFO. I don't deny the existence of UFOs - it's a simple concept. Something we have not identified that was flying. I just don't think it's something otherworldly or paranormal.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Basing my assessment on some of the witnesses statements and on the official report by the Belgian Air Force (including ground and on plane radar tracking data) that I read a few yeas ago I'd say it qualifies as an UFO or UAP, since the origin, characteristics and nature of the phenomenon haven't yet been matched with any known artificial or natural manifestation.

In addition to about 47,000 other things there is a detail that makes his desperate plea impossible. At one point the craft passed below ground level. That's right, it means it went right through the ground. Hmm, somehow I'm doubting we have a prototype even now, 20 years later, that can do that. This is an interesting detail because it has been seized on in two different ways: the skeptics use it to throw out the entire case. They say that a craft passing through solid material is impossible and therefor the entire case should be ignored, the kzillion other data-points proving that a real, material craft was there be damned. And the other side uses it to illustrate the high strangeness of the event. After all, objects passing through solid material are common to UFO reports, albeit beings passing through walls in close encounters, or witnesses claiming to see saucers passing directly through trees and other structures.

 

[Charles Swenson]

Just a quick note from a newbie here. I was going to say it is to respond to your whining about the lack of comments on the Vallee show, but that might create an unintended snarkiness. The show was great and made me realize that perhaps rather than just listening I should, as an avid listener, let you know how much your work on the show is appreciated. Bringing in such illustrious guests as Mssr. Vallee is a incredible contribution to expanding the the mind set of the burgeoning group of avocational ufoologists out there who are alternatively being presented far less credible input on what the phenomenon is (or may be) all about. His Passport to Magonia was certainly one of the seminal works in retaking stock on the subject and his new book (and coauthor) seem to fill in the need for continuing a more serious approach to its implications.

And speaking of ufoology, I'm really looking forward to listening to Jim Mosely next week; it is through his book that I first came across that term and have come to more fully apprehend just how appropriate it can be at times, referring not only to the fools we suffer but the very nature of how the phenomenon seems to fool us just when we feel we may have finally figured it all out. He really is fun to listen to, and those of us who are a little longer in tooth after ironically having cut our teeth on the subject much longer ago can profit from his antiquarian antics.

Anyway, take heart in knowing that although podcast listeners such as myself have been sucked in by your show, not hearing from us does always mean we think it sucks.

Keep up the good work, gentlemen, and I look forward to looking through what your forum has to offer a bit more.

Thanks!