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Jacques Vallee

Jeff Crowell

Paranormal Annoyance
Okay, I know I'm a bit late due to the holiday and all on this one, but did I miss the thread on Dr. Vallee or what?

This was the first podcast (Paracast or otherwise) that I heard with the man and I must say he lived up to the legendary expectations I had for him. Dr. Vallee is every bit the researcher and is nothing less than the absolute best quality of investigator we could have in this esoteric endeavor. I was extremely impressed and awed by his sheer persona and approach to the paranormal.

Two things struck me particularly impressive with Dr. Vallee; he's a professional scientist by trade. It's his day-job so quality of data and research will withstand the most intense scrutiny when it comes to his work. Second; he's not afraid to admit he's ignorant regarding a particular aspect or topic within the field of paranormal research. Several times he made it clear that, when asked about something specific he's not looked into himself, he was merely speculating and giving his own personal opinion. You could tell he was hesitant to approach such subjects and for one so clearly intelligent and open-minded to admit that he doesn't know something about a fringe element of his topic of expertise is overwhelmingly impressive to me.

If I was younger, wealthier, and possessed a higher education in any field of science, I would follow in the path of Dr. Vallee precisely along the study of the paranormal. Unfortunately, all I can do is learn from his methods and hope to mimic them in some way.

Thank you, very much, for having him on, and I look forward to having his co-author on soon as well.

My 2 cents.
 

CapnG

Devil's Advocate
I don't think you missed it, as far as I can tell no such comment thread exists. Seems to be a trend lately, the okay-good shows don't generate discussion, only the very bad or very good shows.

Oh hey Chris about your book, I was wondering if maybe having the word "stalking" in the title might have been the problem. Perhaps "Tracking the Trickster" would have worked better (I'm always a sucker for illiteration). As for a sequel, might I suggest "Trail of the Trickster: Chasing Coyote's Tale".
 

Jeff Crowell

Paranormal Annoyance
I don't think you missed it, as far as I can tell no such comment thread exists. Seems to be a trend lately, the okay-good shows don't generate discussion, only the very bad or very good shows.

Oh hey Chris about your book, I was wondering if maybe having the word "stalking" in the title might have been the problem. Perhaps "Tracking the Trickster" would have worked better (I'm always a sucker for illiteration). As for a sequel, might I suggest "Trail of the Trickster: Chasing Coyote's Tale".
Well, that's an outrage! This show, I believe, was a "very good" show, in my opinion.

I can see where "stalking" may come across as something a bit intimidating. I mean what did you do, Chris? Sit outside a trickster's house peering in his bedroom window with a pair of binoculars? I like your sequel titles, Capn.
 

Brian Now

Paranormal Pimp
I thought it was a good show too and he's a very interesting guest. I was hoping for more stuff from the book though. This and Leslie Kean's book are probably two books I learned about on the Paracast that I will eventually buy.
 

grannysmith

Skilled Investigator
I'm always a sucker for illiteration
Surely not.:p That doesn't sound like you at all.

Re forum silence :

I don't think the new listeners are coming to the forums like the old podcast junkies used to.

Also, Vallee is actually a bit dull in conversation, to be fair.
 

Apocalypto

Paranormal Maven
Great show. Thanks Gene and Chris.

I've read Vallee's earlier books (when I was a kid) and I plan on going over them again. He is a genius, of that there is no doubt. His books had a sort of consciousness-expanding effect on me on the subject of UFOs. I had been very interested in UFOs since the age of around 8 or 9, and I had read many other books on the subject. I was also a huge science fiction fan: Star Trek, science fiction movies, etc. I also devoured Isaac Asimov's books, reading one after the other until I finished every single fiction book he ever wrote. My mother got into the routine of bringing home book after book from the local library.

By the time I reached Vallee's books, I had started to develop a clear "nuts and bolts" notion of what UFOs were. Vallee tore that from me, and replaced it with a wider, more thoughtful mindset. At first I rejected some of his concepts.

I remember having this notion of Vallee as a dreaming speculator... over time I realized that my perceptions were an internal signal. Something was wrong. There is no logic in having firm beliefs in such an enigmatic subject.

Chris, I just wanted to say I'm very impressed with the work you're doing in the San Luis Valley. I'm VERY impressed. I've been listening to you talk about it for a long time now, but I haven't yet made any comments on the project. There's a saying in the gold business. The best location to find gold is where it has been found before. The same goes for UFOs. You know what I'm talking about here; I just wanted to chuck the thought out there and add my voice as a supporter. My prediction is that this is going to be big. I like the sound of the set-up and the folks you have working on it with you. I have a very strong feeling you are going to make some startling and possibly even earth-shattering finds.

Per aspera ad astra!

I'm sure you know of Wilbur Smith? I'm pretty proud of him, being a Canadian. Some of his ideas are exactly like yours.


 

exo_doc

Foolish Earthling
I thought the show was top notch and well done. I'm listening to it again as I install a new dishwasher to catch anything I might have missed.

I think part of the reason no one is posting much anymore could be caused by a couple of factors; 1. People may only post replies to defend thier beleifs or to attack someone elses. Since nothing really controversial has come along lately it's reasonable to assume some people have had nothing to say. 2. Perhaps happy listeners are silent, disgruntled and unhappy listeners are noisy. There's more of a psychological urge to lash out than there is to pat someone on the back. So maybe there are just a bunch of happy listeners.
But that can sort of lead to a boring forum.
 

Kieran

Paranormal Adept
Having a man of such reputation on for less than an hour was not good. The show should have been rescheduled for a later time and date, just my opinion. Maybe that was not feasible not sure? I was disappointed. But the Hour of the show that was posted in the archives, was extremely good listening and was typical Vallée stuff! The rest of the show. Gene and Chris are steadily becoming a good partnership, the chemistry is finally there, it was rocky for a while there, but has improved over time.
 

Para

Paranormal Maven
One of the best Paracast episodes to date in my opinion. Mr Vallee was a very interesting guest.

Thank you.

:)
 

MacDaddy

Skilled Investigator
Jacques Vallee's entire body of work has not produced one iota of useful information about the true nature of UFOs. Human beings are unreliable witnesses, period. They lie, imagine, construct false memories, incorporate dreams into memories, make mistakes, hallucinate, fill in non-existent details and generally are terrible at reporting the confusing signals received by their senses. That's why we have science: to eliminate, as much as possible, the wretchedness of human observation, by systematizing it, subjecting it to cross-checking, challenging it at every opportunity.

No amount of collecting human stories and trying to fit them into a speculative pattern qualifies as science. It's entertaining, even interesting, but does nothing to advance our knowledge about the way the universe works. Science does that all the time. When science has a load of data it wishes to fit into a speculative pattern, it jolly well tests to see if that pattern fits with the way nature works. If it doesn't, it gets thrown out and some new pattern is devised and tested. If the data is any good in the first place, real advances occur in our understanding. Ufology is a source of humor in the wider world because it deserves to be. It appears to be a bunch of often intelligent people expending vast amounts of energy in "researching" a subject without ever discovering a single useful piece of knowledge about it. And when nothing ever (ever!) is nailed down, do the ufologists rightly conclude that there just may be nothing to all of this data but the vagaries of human perception and need to tell stories? No way! It's the government hiding stuff from us, it's the aliens or cryptos doing a perfect job of obscuring their trail, it's (and this is my favorite) the Trickster. The fucking Trickster?

If you believe that every story has value then there's no end to what you'll have to fit into your worldview. The angel Moroni, leprechauns, Mohammed ascending into heaven on a horse, garden fairies, flying saucers doing bovine autopsies, Jesus Christ rising from the dead, Skinwalker Ranch ... there's no end to it. If you can pick and choose without any real proof, you're making an emotional choice, a leap of faith that has no real value in advancing your knowledge. Jacques Vallee speaks in a seemingly rational manner and builds an interesting framework for laughably unreliable data. Jim Jones and countless others have done the same, but that doesn't mean it's wise to drink the Kool-Aid.

It's amusing to listen to shows like the Paracast. Get some real skeptics on the show and it will become even more interesting and perhaps even useful.
 

dyingsun

Paranormal Adept
"Human beings are unreliable witnesses, period. They lie, imagine, construct false memories, incorporate dreams into memories, make mistakes, hallucinate, fill in non-existent details and generally are terrible at reporting the confusing signals received by their senses. That's why we have science" --> or for that matter 'History', eh...
 

Christopher O'Brien

Back in the Saddle Aginn
Staff member
It's amusing to listen to shows like the Paracast. Get some real skeptics on the show and it will become even more interesting and perhaps even useful.
OK. Point well taken. But, you are listening! That speaks volumes. So, why did you come to the paracast in the first place? Just to dog us? Or perhaps because YOU ARE LOOKING FOR ANSWERS--just like the rest of us--and the methodology of the current "scientific approach" is dis-functional and lacking and you are looking for something (anything) else (?) So, when do we book YOUR appearance as the guest de jour? Gene? Sign this anonymous poster up for a guest slot. *smile* Come on: be honest: if you didn't give a shit, you would have never posted your opinion of Vallee--one of our most esteemed thinkers in the first place! Hmm, maybe YOU are the trickster sent here in disguise to challenge the status quo of cutting edge thinking or you're just the latest in a line of close-minded ringers mitching and boaning... *smile*
 

The Pair of Cats

a.k.a Philip Deane
.."MacDaddy's entire post has not produced one iota of useful information about the true nature of UFOlogy. Skeptics are unreliable, period. They lie, imagine, incorporate personal attacks into their responses, make mistakes, hallucinate and generally are terrible at reporting in a non biased and impartial way. That's why we have science: to worship, as much as possible.

It's amusing to listen to shows like the Paracast. Get MacDaddy on the show and it will become even more interesting and perhaps even useful.
"
 

MacDaddy

Skilled Investigator
Yeah, the fucking trickster! Makes as much sense as the ever-evolving, always changing perception of what is truly "science" (or it's acknowledgment of a need for an evolving scientific method). Isn't it obvious, gentle poster? We need fresh, evolved thinking to examine and define the inexplicable and the sublime---yeah, like UFOs, crypto-creatures and my non-existent mother-in-law. OK. Point well taken. But, you are listening! That speaks volumes. So, why did you come to the paracast in the first place? Just to dog us? Or perhaps because YOU ARE LOOKING FOR ANSWERS--just like the rest of us--and the methodology of the current "scientific approach" is dis-functional and lacking and you are looking for something (anything) else (?) So, when do we book YOUR appearance as the guest de jour? Gene? Sign this anonymous poster up for a guest slot. *smile* Come on: be honest: if you didn't give a shit, you would have never posted your opinion of Vallee--one of our most esteemed thinkers in the first place! Hmm, maybe YOU are the trickster sent here in disguise to challenge the status quo of cutting edge thinking or you're just the latest in a line of close-minded ringers mitching and boaning... *smile*
No, the concept of the trickster does not make as much sense as science. What a silly statement. Science has produced results. The trickster is just a useless hypothesis which can't be refuted because any attack on it can be blamed on the trickster himself! It gets nobody any closer to the truth. Anything we don't understand we just blame on the trickster? If that's the answer, let's just shut down reasoned inquiry and stop pretending we're ever going to get anywhere. Yep, I listen to the Paracast. It's very entertaining, especially the ads. I listen to it in hopes of hearing any progress at all in explaining the paranormal. But I have so far waited in vain. There has been absolutely no progress in getting at the truth of UFOs and if Vallee is one of our most esteemed thinkers, there probably never will be. Give me one example of where Vallee has added to our store of knowledge of the way the world really works. I don't mean speculation, theorizing, pattern-building, tale-spinning or any of his very entertaining folkloric mumbo-jumbo, but just one real speck of truth he's discovered that is now a useful part of human knowledge.

Close-minded ringers? I reckon I'm as open-minded as the next fellow, but I have to admit that belief is a thing that I do not give lightly. If you say that there's a trickster, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, you have to give me some proof. I'm waiting...
 

CapnG

Devil's Advocate
Close-minded ringers? I reckon I'm as open-minded as the next fellow, but I have to admit that belief is a thing that I do not give lightly. If you say that there's a trickster, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, you have to give me some proof. I'm waiting...
You'll be waiting a while, I fear. Around here you'll also find that "open minded" tends to mean "uncritical".

I don't really have a beef with Vallee, I tend to regard him more as an explorer of ideas than a outright researcher, the difference being researchers have an aim. I think however that the problem with the whole trickster concept is this simple: it's a cop-out. Can't explain something? The trickster did it! If someone wanted to make the case that the trickster is a specific entity who engages in a particular behaviour then I'm interested in hearing about it. But if the argument is that the trickster is this nigh-universally present, all-powerful entity that just seems to like fucking around with people for the hell of it then why not just say "God" or "Satan"? Otherwise how at the end of the day is it anything other than paranormal fundamentalism?
 

Kieran

Paranormal Adept
Jacques Vallee's entire body of work has not produced one iota of useful information about the true nature of UFOs. Human beings are unreliable witnesses, period. They lie, imagine, construct false memories, incorporate dreams into memories, make mistakes, hallucinate, fill in non-existent details and generally are terrible at reporting the confusing signals received by their senses. That's why we have science: to eliminate, as much as possible, the wretchedness of human observation, by systematizing it, subjecting it to cross-checking, challenging it at every opportunity.

No amount of collecting human stories and trying to fit them into a speculative pattern qualifies as science. It's entertaining, even interesting, but does nothing to advance our knowledge about the way the universe works. Science does that all the time. When science has a load of data it wishes to fit into a speculative pattern, it jolly well tests to see if that pattern fits with the way nature works. If it doesn't, it gets thrown out and some new pattern is devised and tested. If the data is any good in the first place, real advances occur in our understanding. Ufology is a source of humor in the wider world because it deserves to be. It appears to be a bunch of often intelligent people expending vast amounts of energy in "researching" a subject without ever discovering a single useful piece of knowledge about it. And when nothing ever (ever!) is nailed down, do the ufologists rightly conclude that there just may be nothing to all of this data but the vagaries of human perception and need to tell stories? No way! It's the government hiding stuff from us, it's the aliens or cryptos doing a perfect job of obscuring their trail, it's (and this is my favorite) the Trickster. The fucking Trickster?

If you believe that every story has value then there's no end to what you'll have to fit into your worldview. The angel Moroni, leprechauns, Mohammed ascending into heaven on a horse, garden fairies, flying saucers doing bovine autopsies, Jesus Christ rising from the dead, Skinwalker Ranch ... there's no end to it. If you can pick and choose without any real proof, you're making an emotional choice, a leap of faith that has no real value in advancing your knowledge. Jacques Vallee speaks in a seemingly rational manner and builds an interesting framework for laughably unreliable data. Jim Jones and countless others have done the same, but that doesn't mean it's wise to drink the Kool-Aid.

It's amusing to listen to shows like the Paracast. Get some real skeptics on the show and it will become even more interesting and perhaps even useful.
Some of the older Ufologists like Vallée and Keel, were talking up weird and possible theories for the origin UFO's, long and way before scientists started or take a look at the possibilities of extra dimensions beyond the third dimension, we occupy today. The new science of this generation does seem to be all about possibilities, as far as I am aware, Quantum theory and Quantum physics, and String Theory, are basically just thoughts processes, which have yet to be proven outright.

Here is my opinion on some of what you said, take it or leave it!

Vallée, and people like him who study UFO's are visionaries and thinkers. Vallée, has an opinion, UFO's whatever they are or turn out to be. Have been with us in someform for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and he concluded, we are dealing with a phenomenon that doesn't act in a way we, as humans, presume it would or should!

You have to understand nobody in Ufology, has the overall answers to what the UFO phenomenon is, everyone has a pet theory and even I Have a theory, but nobody can conclusively say one way another UFO''s come from a planet in our solar system or further out, or that UFO's come from dimensions, outside of our view or vision.

The fact that neither Skeptics and Science, will not look at the data, is what we believers (who believe something real not imagined is happening) find infuriating. You claim open-mindedness, but why do Skeptics, for the most part avoid many of the pondering questions. What is it thousands of people are observing or seeing in the skies? ( as a skeptic explain the shapes people seen, the photographs and video tapes, as far as I am aware images should not appear in a photograph if it does not exist!... If a phenomenon doesn't exist, shouldn't that be contradicted at every turn by records, the fact that we have a number of Records and documentation, that talk about the reality of the UFO phenomenon as being real not imagined should give every Skeptic pause!

You bring up Santa Claus (which in fact a man one lived that this myth arose from) and the Easter bunny silly analogies that don't fit the argument as all. The fact that the UFO phenomenon in some form or another has been spotted in every country, that has language to speak of, most tell you something? It wasn't reindeers and Santa, people saw, he only comes once a year (little joke) people are describing similar objects to what is seen on one side of the world to the next, and this is ample confirmation for me, the phenomenon is not fictitious or imagined.

You've a hard up for Vallée, ok I agree to this point. It is a leap of faith to believe one theory to origins over another one, but is simply wrong to suggest that the data is unreliable or not conclusive. We do have a genuine phenomenon there, more so, than any other paranormal topic than gets discussed on these type of shows. One witness or two witnesses, even ten we can not trust, but when you have thousands of peoples, over dozens of years, from around globe seen the same thing, then you have to be intellectually honest with yourself, and step back is really that insane people are seeing what they claim they have?

Science, just expects a different intelligence to award us with their presence for everyone to see, seemly is not like that, whatever this intelligence motives are, and I presume it is an intelligence, the intelligence acts in a way that all purposes is alien, or has something to hide from us? I do agree we all basically come on here everyday talk about the same stuff over and over again in a different way, but we do only because we honestly for the most part believe, the Phenomenon UFO exists. The weird theories only stem, and I just brought it up previously, that the Phenomenon itself is unrevealing, and Governments have no need to tell the public something exists, which is undoubtedly would be out of the norm, since the phenomenon doesn't intervene in World affairs, for the most part the Phenomenon just pops up, every now and again spotted, but it does not stick around long to be studied, that in my opinion is deliberate. Any self thinking intelligence would know the longer you stick around, the more attention you will receive!

Anyway, the Trickster is a joker, maybe people just can't take the possibility the phenomenon might be fooling us into believe one theory, over another, or that the phenomenon has they ability to transform it self from one thing to another, that stuff it really out there for lot of people to take in, but Chris is right in lot of Folkloric tales of weird goings on, that were handed down through the ages.

Cultures have made certain claims, they'd seen "Beings" change or morph from one state to the next and back again. In some Irish Tales locals described seeing fairy people change from animals to humans and back again.Those aspects of the Phenomenon is what lot of Ufologists who believe in the Nuts and bolts theory of UFO's, find hard to believe is real, who knows but the tales still exist, so we can't just pick and choose the tales we want to believe or the ones that suit the theory one pushes, we have to include everything as long as there is history or evidence there to back it all up!

Ufology causes a few laughs among ye skeptics, but maybe you need to consider the possibility the laugh is on you! Consider that one and smoke it!
 

tyder001

Paranormal Adept
What a pile of shit! IT's called the PARAcast. So, yeah there are people here who are interested in the paranormal. Hell ya what hoss run your azz over to the jimmy randi forum and say you think we are more than meatbots! Wanna see how long you last? Sheeeesh, get over it. I love science. I have a pc and a t.v. and I was raised watching black and white footage of John Glenn orbiting the moon. I "see" because of scientist using their God given intellengence to "design" a lens to correct my vision. I've dipped my toes in the ocean at Wakiki and walked the woods in the foothills of the Appalachian mountain chain in North Alabama because of planes that fly from one place to another. But, once you "ask" a question be it about evolution or God or life or death then ya know what? You just put "reason" into the equation. Matter of fact just by trying to "design" proof that evolution is a cosmic accident the materialist screws the pooch. So, wake up and stop "worshiping" a method of human inquiry that is a "amalgamation" of many disiplines and not simply a "thing" to be trotted out by loud mouth bullies to stop all wondering and mystery in the world. I take "science" for what it is. It's wonderful when it cures heart diesease and fights cancer. It's misguided when it invents bombs and sells out to the phamacutical industry. I indeed to take my intuition and inner life seriously. I go to the doctor when I'm in need of medical help. I pray and he/she does the medical and I have enough sense to know there isn't a grumpy old white man in the sky micro managing things. But, just coming here and attacking folks (on a frickin PARANORMAL board) for wondering if we are alone or not. Or wondering if we are more than a brain fart is just...oh I don't know...STUPID!

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

I wish I had read your post first Kieran because you said it much better and with less anger and combativeness than I did. But, it does get "tiring" to keep defending the right of people on a paranormal board to discuss serioulsy paranormal subjects. :)
 

grannysmith

Skilled Investigator
You'll be waiting a while, I fear. Around here you'll also find that "open minded" tends to mean "uncritical".

I don't really have a beef with Vallee, I tend to regard him more as an explorer of ideas than a outright researcher, the difference being researchers have an aim. I think however that the problem with the whole trickster concept is this simple: it's a cop-out. Can't explain something? The trickster did it! If someone wanted to make the case that the trickster is a specific entity who engages in a particular behaviour then I'm interested in hearing about it. But if the argument is that the trickster is this nigh-universally present, all-powerful entity that just seems to like fucking around with people for the hell of it then why not just say "God" or "Satan"? Otherwise how at the end of the day is it anything other than paranormal fundamentalism?
I agree. The 'Trickster' concept is merely a place-holder for ' I can't make any f**king sense of this - shit is weird'. Point is, it's actually an unhelpful and potentially misleading place-holder for that position since it appears as a positive metaphysical explanation (in terms of a posited subjectivity albeit of a possibly sui generis type) for what is, essentially, not understood.
 

The Pair of Cats

a.k.a Philip Deane
It would be helpful if science did get involved in the study of the paranormal at least substantially more than it does now. Its involvement in this arena amounts to bugger all in the scheme of things.
It appears that the so called scientists don't have the balls to step outside their cushy little well paid worlds for fear that their colleagues may laugh at them or they will be shunned.
It's then left to MacDaddy who, after trying to convince us that Vallee's contribution to the paranormal is irrelevant, then dazzles us with the breathtaking admission that he actually listens to the show. You can almost see him sitting there, listening away, box of tissues in his lap, excitedly waiting for the ad breaks. And then Christopher does his trickster voice and it's all over red rover. Of course then there's the old santa claus/easter bunny chestnuts which seem to get trotted out with monotonous regularity when other potentially more amusing analogies would be far more entertaining.
 


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