Would Contact with Extraterrestrials Benefit or Harm Humanity?

[Trajanus]

I strongly believe that barring any very sinister covert long-term action being carried out by ET right now,
ET, or whatever seems to be the origin of UFO's and historical stories of Gods visiting us through the ages, would have acted already if complete annhilition were their goal.

Maybe they're just waiting to harvest enough useful genes before doing that.

In the main, it seems to me that our seeing UFO's is mostly coincidental, in that UFO's are going about their business anyway, regardless of whether any human is observing them or not and mostly they either do not care, do not even consider us worthy of interest

Many accounts suggest that. Aliens were seen collecting samples, indifferent to human observers.

Maybe the Vatican's announcement that belief in ET life does not conflict with a belief in God was a very clever get-out clause so that if such a thing becomes fact, it will not lead to Catholics dying out, both as a religion and as people.

Seems to be happening already--look at the shortage of priests.

 

[trainedobserver]

@trainedobserver, good question about whether there have been cultures who have wholly benefited from a more advanced culture absorbing them?
I suppose Native Americans are a good example in as much as to my knowledge at least, alcohol and firearms did not exist until Europeans arrived. The introduction of such accurate killing devices and the possibility of alcoholism and people acting differently because of alcohol, I think are pretty negative outcomes. However, this must be balanced against things like increased awareness of health issues, general knowledge of the wider world (I for one, would like to know about extraterrestrial life just for the sake of it, if nothing else). I imagine many native americans were happy to learn more about the world and universe that they may otherwise have not discovered for some time.

Sweet Jesus. You cannot be serious. The total destruction of numerous Native American cultures, we are talking entire ways of life, along with what can only be described as genocide, cannot in any way shape or form be balanced against awareness of anything. I'm really surprised that you would suggest such a thing.

Reading things like Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and Black Elk Speaks gives a hint of the incredible tragedy and horror that occurs during such a clash of civilizations. The aftermath for the Native American is the loss of their lands, their way of life, and to a large part their history and identity. Native American culture in no way benefited from its contact with the superior European culture because it was destroyed. Any short term benefits experienced by individuals were quickly lost by the systematic destruction of their culture and murder of their people.

 

[wwkirk]

Here's some excerpts from the article leading off this thread.

"Our analysis suggests some immediate practical recommendations for humanity. One recommendation is that messages to extraterrestrials should be written cautiously. For example, prior messages have included details of human biology, such as the numbers one through ten (our base ten system is likely derived from the number of fingers on our hands) and the form and structure of the DNA molecule. However, details about our biology, though seemingly harmless, may actually help certain ETI to cause us harm. A malicious ETI listener may use a message about human biology to design a potent biological weapon for use against Earth. Since these messages will ultimately be sent toward unknown ETI, we cannot know whether or not they might be received by such a malicious ETI. Therefore, caution is warranted. For example, initial communication with ETI may be best limited to simple mathematical discourse for security purposes until we have a better idea of the type of ETI we are dealing with. In our view, decision making regarding messaging should factor in the probabilities and magnitudes of possible message scenarios through a formal risk analysis that could draw on the scenario analysis presented here.

"Another recommendation is that humanity should avoid giving off the appearance of being a rapidly expansive civilization. If an ETI perceives humanity as such, then it may be inclined to attempt a preemptive strike against us so as to prevent us from growing into a threat to the ETI or others in the galaxy. Similarly, ecosystem-valuing universalist ETI may observe humanity’s ecological destructive tendencies and wipe humanity out in order to preserve the Earth system as a whole. These scenarios give us reason to limit our growth and reduce our impact on global ecosystems. It would be particularly important for us to limit our emissions of greenhouse gases, since atmospheric composition can be observed from other planets. We acknowledge that the pursuit of emissions reductions and other ecological projects may have much stronger justifications than those that derive from ETI encounter, but that does not render ETI encounter scenarios insignificant or irrelevant."

We need to be careful about how we present ourselves.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Sweet Jesus. You cannot be serious. The total destruction of numerous Native American cultures, we are talking entire ways of life, along with what can only be described as genocide, cannot in any way shape or form be balanced against awareness of anything. I'm really surprised that you would suggest such a thing.

Reading things like Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and Black Elk Speaks gives a hint of the incredible tragedy and horror that occurs during such a clash of civilizations. The aftermath for the Native American is the loss of their lands, their way of life, and to a large part their history and identity. Native American culture in no way benefited from its contact with the superior European culture because it was destroyed. Any short term benefits experienced by individuals were quickly lost by the systematic destruction of their culture and murder of their people.

i think you've misunderstood me a bit. nothing excuses slaughter of any culture or race. my point is despite there being possibly huge negative consequences of learning about ET life, if it happens we probably will not be in a position to do much about it. you cannot turn back time and to go back to my native american analogy, if i am correct, some of the nations who fought against the superior sized forces of the invaders and some tried to live along side (even though complete submission may not have been enough to guarrantee continued existence. some nations were destroyed while others will have survived by adapting.
so my point was only that it may be pointless trying to resist a wilful and vastly superior alien race - perhaps the humans that would still be alive several hundred years after contact will be the ones that just accepted they had to change without resistance.
i am not saying this is at all a happy prospect. it might be the only thing to do?
i am only talking for me but for the chance to jump in some alien ship and see the universe would i renounce my culture? you bet i would. but thats just me!
gordon

 

[trainedobserver]

All such romantic notions aside, the destruction of everything that defines a people through discovery by another more advanced society is a very real phenomena and one that needs to seriously considered when entertaining these ideas. Individuals may happily abdicate their heritage to embrace some other but this says little about the great loss, misery, and suffering the human race will be subjected to as a whole by such an event.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

All such romantic notions aside, the destruction of everything that defines a people through discovery by another more advanced society is a very real phenomena and one that needs to seriously considered when entertaining these ideas. Individuals may happily abdicate their heritage to embrace some other but this says little about the great loss, misery, and suffering the human race will be subjected to as a whole by such an event.

agreed. but talking about the whole history of the human race, countless cultures existed that no longer do, and ones today will not exist in the future, perhaps my own.
i cannot get too misty-eyed over something that has always happened and probably will for a long time yet. the loss of a culture, it could be argued is not as bad as the loss of a species but that happens all the time too.
there is a place of course for caring about the little guy not getting shat on by the big guys just because they can but i say it is still going to happen. maybe what is most important is with this knowledge, how can we prepare to survive contact if it becomes a reality?
gordon

 

[trainedobserver]

i cannot get too misty-eyed over something that has always happened and probably will for a long time yet. the loss of a culture, it could be argued is not as bad as the loss of a species but that happens all the time too.

I guess we can afford to be callous until it happens to us, our families, and everything we love and hold dear.

... maybe what is most important is with this knowledge, how can we prepare to survive contact if it becomes a reality?

In a phrase. "Tool up." Also, "Hide." comes to mind and is probably the more effective strategy. Most of the detrimental effects of such contact are unintentional and just the natural consequences of cultures in collision, so "Avoid" seems the best way deal with it. After a contact is made, I think fierce philosophical battles will occur within the human population as to how to deal with it. New religions will spring up, old ones will adapt or die, new political movements will attempt to exploit the chaos that will naturally erupt. I think individuals will be too consumed with their own personal survival to worry about loosing their culture to an alien influence or becoming too enamored with alien technology or culture. I certainly don't think we'll be taking joy-rides at their expense.

 

[tyder001]

Wow, I'm amazed at this thread. I had no idea that people took this stuff so seriously. I mean some of you have absolutely mapped out what you think and how you are going to act and what part in evolution it plays. I feel unworthy. I just think it's a fun little subject to think about and talk about. I love to read and talk about ancient aliens and biblical and Torah scenerios of ancients mistaking aliens for gods and demons. I think the pictures with alledged flying craft are fun to speculate on. But, I'm real skeptical about it all. But, some of you! Well, like I said I'm not worthy!

 

[mike]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

The australian aboriginal is a classic example. Technologicaly superior races, invariably displace the less advanced.
The AA now have lower infant mortality rates, speak (for the most part) a common language english, and have access to better technology than that which they possesed when they had first contact with europeans.

The Australian Aboriginal languages comprise several language families and isolates native to the Australian Aborigines of Australia and a few nearby islands, but by convention excluding the languages of Tasmania and the Torres Strait Islanders. The relationships between these languages are not clear at present, although substantial progress has been made in recent decades.[1]

In the late 18th century, there were between 350 and 750 distinct Aboriginal social groupings, and a similar number of languages or dialects.[2] At the start of the 21st century, fewer than 150 indigenous languages remain[3] in daily use, and all except roughly 20 are highly endangered. Of those that survive, only 10%, usually located in the most isolated areas, are being learned by children. For example, of the 5 least endangered Western Australian Aboriginal languages, 4 belong to the Ngaanyatjarra grouping of the Central and Great Victoria Desert. Bilingual education is being used successfully in some communities. Seven of the most widely spoken Australian languages, such as Warlpiri and Tiwi, retain between 1,000 and 3,000 speakers.[4] Some Aboriginal communities and linguists show support for learning programs either for language revival proper or for only "post-vernacular maintenance" (teaching indigenous Australians some words and concepts related to the lost language).[5]

The Tasmanian people were nearly eradicated early in Australia's colonial history, and their languages were lost before much was recorded. Tasmania was separated from the mainland at the end of the last ice age, and the Tasmanian Aborigines apparently remained isolated from the outside world for around 10,000 years. Too little is known of their languages for classification, though they seem to have had phonological similarities with languages of the mainland.

The vast majority of the dialects are lost, as are many of the traditional skills.

Genetically they are being diluted out of existance, a factor that plays into the ET scenario if they or we start using technology to swap DNA between various species.

Today lighting a cook fire is more likely to be done with a disposable lighter, than a traditional method, those methods are lost.
The same would apply with ET technology and our current methods.

The question is would this be a good thing or a bad thing.

To me the answer is like everything in life it would be a mix good and bad.

But if there is one thing that never changes, its that things change..............

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Word!

 

[tyder001]

I'm still trying to get into the Michael Tellinger book I mentioned in an earlier discussion. I don't think we come from ancient aliens but some of the folks like him and others do make a fair case for the possibilty. I think the inter dimensional possibility is intersting. Maybe parallel worlds or time travelers. I would subscribe completely to the military black ops if it were not for the fact that the reports go back way before there was such a thing. As I said before I did have a sighting once. I just can't decide what it was I saw and I can't buy into it being E.T. But, it hasn't been back so it seems it would not be a satalite (wouldn't they follow a pattern and return at some point?) Wasn't a plane because a plane doesn't just set there and not move for several minutes. Wasn't a copter because it made no sound and had no "flahing or spot lights" at all. I've seen planes and copters here and they have a distinct look and sound. It just hung there and then did a little zig zag after a short time. I acutally left and came back. Now, the weird part to me is why didn't I try to get closer. Oh well, the joys of hindsight I guess. It was interesting and I keep looking in the same spot but so far nothing there.

 

[wwkirk]

I'm still trying to get into the Michael Tellinger book I mentioned in an earlier discussion. I don't think we come from ancient aliens but some of the folks like him and others do make a fair case for the possibilty. I think the inter dimensional possibility is intersting. Maybe parallel worlds or time travelers. I would subscribe completely to the military black ops if it were not for the fact that the reports go back way before there was such a thing. As I said before I did have a sighting once. I just can't decide what it was I saw and I can't buy into it being E.T. But, it hasn't been back so it seems it would not be a satalite (wouldn't they follow a pattern and return at some point?) Wasn't a plane because a plane doesn't just set there and not move for several minutes. Wasn't a copter because it made no sound and had no "flahing or spot lights" at all. I've seen planes and copters here and they have a distinct look and sound. It just hung there and then did a little zig zag after a short time. I acutally left and came back. Now, the weird part to me is why didn't I try to get closer. Oh well, the joys of hindsight I guess. It was interesting and I keep looking in the same spot but so far nothing there.

You didn't try to get closer. Maybe that's what saved you. <TRICKSTER LAUGH>

 

[tyder001]

Yeah, maybe I was put into a hypno state and told not to come closer. Either that or the Office was coming on and I didn't want to miss it.

 

[Randall]

I just enjoyed re-watching the move Contact. This is about the 4th time I've watched it, and this time I think I enjoyed it more than the first 3 times. I see a fair bit of symbolism and referencing to Sagan, like the fact that he was very interested in UFOs and alien contact, but couldn't approach the science with that attitude because of the politics. Related to that is the way the candidate for the project was chosen and the little speech he gave to Ellie. Ellie had told the truth before the selection panel about her disbelief in God. Consequently she lost. Her rival simply told everyone what they wanted to hear and won. He admired her idealism, but added that the world just isn't fair.

Ellie still gets her chance, but in the end she's essentially the alien witness who has no verifiable material evidence to prove she knows aliens are real, and a parallel is drawn between that and a belief in religious faith. Personally I think that wasn't meant to suggest we should have more religious faith, but to prompt the question: If people can have faith in superstitious religious beliefs, what's so difficult about believing someone credible who says they've had an alien encounter?

Anyway it reminded me that as someone pushing his 6th decade on this planet, that It's a tough lesson to learn that the world is more about power and perception management than truth and integrity. In the movie Ellie is constantly overridden and had her moments stolen or usurped by less deserving more powerful people. It reminded me of how tired I've become of the whole game of life myself. There are times I feel like just hanging it all up, selling everything, and seeing how long I can last sipping margaritas under an umbrella on some third world beach.

 

[Trajanus]

If people can have faith in superstitious religious beliefs, what's so difficult about believing someone credible who says they've had an alien encounter?

This has bothered me me for decades. Someone who believes in alien visitors is called crazy. Someone who believes "I am the living bread, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood shall live forever" is respected. It's a screwed up world...

There are times I feel like just hanging it all up, selling everything, and seeing how long I can last sipping margaritas under an umbrella on some third world beach.

Hang in there. I'm even older and not inclined to give up.

 

[DaveM]

This has bothered me me for decades. Someone who believes is alien visitors is called crazy. Someone who believes "I am the living bread, whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood shall live forever" is respected. It's a screwed up world...



Hang in there. I'm even older and not inclined to give up.

The Synoptic Gospels were written 40-60 years after the historical Jesus would have lived. The idea that any of his words were remembered that long afterwards doesn’t seem very likely. It’s a romanticized version, much like Jesus was a six foot, white man with long flowing hair. It goes against the historical facts of that era.

 

[Randall]

The Synoptic Gospels were written 40-60 years after the historical Jesus would have lived. The idea that any of his words were remembered that long afterwards doesn’t seem very likely. It’s a romanticized version, much like Jesus was a six foot, white man with long flowing hair. It goes against the historical facts of that era.

If you check out the Richard Carrier videos, he makes an almost airtight case that the whole Jesus story is pure mythology.

​

 

[DaveM]

If you check out the Richard Carrier videos, he makes an almost airtight case that the whole Jesus story is pure mythology.

​

Unfortunately, Mr. Carrier is a professed atheist who has been accused of sexual harassment. He doesn't help his argument very much.

 

[Randall]

Unfortunately, Mr. Carrier is a professed atheist who has been accused of sexual harassment. He doesn't help his argument very much.

Given his argument, I would expect him to be a professed atheist. The issue should be judged based on merit of the evidence rather than personality. Also accusations of sexual harassment are simply accusations. I don't pay any attention to them unless they're proven and are actually serious. Consider this: http://skepchick.org/2016/08/richard-carrier-turns-to-libel-bullying-to-fight-creep-charges/

Personally, I think if someone is going to make a formal complaint then a formal letter in response is perfectly reasonable. It's not "libel bullying" to defend one's self against libel. What kind of low BS is that? And now his attempt to defend himself has become a "woman's solidarity" thing. That's even more BS. I'm getting sick of people's professional credibility coming under attack over some individual's subjective interpretations of what is or isn't appropriate social behavior. Unless it's clear some law is broken then people's personal disputes shouldn't have any bearing on their professional competency.

 

[DaveM]

From Wikipedia. It would seem there was more to it than just simple accusations.

In June 2016 Carrier was accused of sexual harassment by Amy Frank, the former president of the Arizona State Universitychapter of the Secular Student Alliance. As a result, the SSA removed Carrier from its speakers list and Skepticon prohibited Carrier from attending any of its future conferences. Skepticon had previously stopped inviting him to speak after he displayed a pattern of inappropriate behavior at previous conferences.