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"Top questions and doubts about UFO whistleblower, Luis Elizondo "


mike

Paranormal Adept
What do you think Fravor and his wingman, and their respective WSO's saw............

Other than something else........
 

Walter Bosley

Paranormal Adept
Does that gratify you ?
Is that what you want to achieve ?

Is that your contribution to the debate ?

If the answer is Yes to any of those then you are just trolling us.

Genuine research and debate on this topic seeks more than "something else" as input.

Do you have anything of real substance to add to the debate ? (Protip "something else" isn't worth anything)
OK, Scarlett O'Hara, settle your nerves.

As regards my bonafides for speaking here in this forum, ask Gene, Chris, Don Ecker, Greg Bishop and the others who've seen my DD214 and documents etc etc etc. And regarding the substance I've added, I gave it to you: my professionally experienced opinion. You just simply disagree with it and you don't like how I express myself. But that's OK because you're not my type and I'm not asking you out for an evening on the town. :D
 

Thomas R Morrison

Paranormal Adept
The ETH is lacking
Please provide one example.

Not Every Pilot Is Read-In On Everything.
We've been getting credible reports of the exact same kinds of apparently instantaneous dramatic accelerations and silent nonaerodynamic levitation by these unexplained devices for about 70 years now. If you're suggesting that we've secretly had that level of capability since the late 1940s, then it's safe to say that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, because we still don't even have a clear conceptual strategy for producing the signature performance characteristics of the anomalous UFOs reported over the last seven decades.

I would love to believe that the US military had achieved the metric propulsion system required for these kinds of maneuvers, because that capability is synonymous with interstellar spaceflight capability, according to the theoretical physics of general relativity. But jumping to the conclusion that we've had that level of engineering capability for over half a century defies all known facts and scientific reasoning, so the only viable explanation that we're left with is nonhuman technology.
 

Walter Bosley

Paranormal Adept
Roswell. There's an example. The 'witnesses' are pretty much all questionable or just simply BS at this point. It has been picked apart enough times. If you want more examples, how about every time something can't be explained within 'conventional' technology, believers slap ET onto it, based on little more than hunch, opinion and faith. For decades. You're in denial.

You're believing everything you hear in the reports and you're accepting video at face value.
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
I didn't question your bona fides, Just the value of your opinion.
And the way you've framed the debate disparaging the pov of those, (including the eyewitnesses themselves) as being wrong.

Luis Elizondo head of the program acknowledged to be a real thing by the DoD With direct access to the data which you don't. Who's taken the view the information hes had access too suggests ET as an answer.
The (multiple) Pilots and their WSO's who witnessed the event , Which you didnt who have formed the view the performance characteristics they witnessed (which again you didnt) suggests to the ET is the answer.

Held against our resident high priest of USG intelligence who saw nothing, but suggests it was "something else"

I don't know if what they saw was ET, that's the honest answer. And neither do you. That's the honest reality.

Presenting yourself as the high priest of USG intel and offering "something else" as a god of gaps explanation , reflects on you not me.

I'm happy to let these chips fall where they may.

But personally an honest I dont know lets dig deeper, beats the i'm the high priest of knowledge, accept my god of gaps answer as gospel reply.

Yours is the quasi religious pov here, not mine.
 

Walter Bosley

Paranormal Adept
I've said all I need to say so you zealots enjoy yourselves now. Be sure to chalk my departure from this discussion as a victory for your side. :D
 

Walter Bosley

Paranormal Adept
Mike,

Let it go. You haven't won anything, least of all a 'debate' in a forum discussion, lol. Have you any concept how little this means?

:)
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
We've been getting credible reports of the exact same kinds of apparently instantaneous dramatic accelerations and silent nonaerodynamic levitation by these unexplained devices for about 70 years now. If you're suggesting that we've secretly had that level of capability since the late 1940s, then it's safe to say that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, because we still don't even have a clear conceptual strategy for producing the signature performance characteristics of the anomalous UFOs reported over the last seven decades.
 

Thomas R Morrison

Paranormal Adept
Roswell. There's an example.
No, that's not a pertinent example. I asked you for one example where the ETH is lacking. The legitimacy or illegitimacy of any given case is irrelevant to the logical and factual credibility of the ETH itself.

You're believing everything you hear in the reports and you're accepting video at face value.
Not at all - I don't believe any case 100% because any specific case can be a hoax, mistake, delusion, PsyOp, whatever. I'm looking at the key features of UFO sighting reports in general, which have been both unique and eerily consistent for at least 70 years, and then I'm comparing those features with the history of theoretical physics and applied sciences, to conclude that the key features of the most credible UFO reports over the last 70 years can't be achieved with today's technology (almost certainly) and definitely couldn't be achieved with the state of human technology of half a century ago.

If you disagree, then your logic is faulty.
 
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mike

Paranormal Adept
OK, Scarlett O'Hara, settle your nerves.

As regards my bonafides for speaking here in this forum, ask Gene, Chris, Don Ecker, Greg Bishop and the others who've seen my DD214 and documents etc etc etc. And regarding the substance I've added, I gave it to you: my professionally experienced opinion. You just simply disagree with it and you don't like how I express myself. But that's OK because you're not my type and I'm not asking you out for an evening on the town.
Yeah your professional opinion its "something else"

And is DD214 your man boob bra size ? if so thats the first time today ive been impressed.
 

Realm

Paranormal Adept
One thing however is the undeniable change in the media's attitude toward the subject. This is nothing short of a paradigm shift. Too bad the sort of unification I'd hoped for in the ufology community hasn't materialized or we'd be in a position to leverage this opportunity for all it's worth. Instead the community remains divided and focused on territory and self-interest and the TTSA doesn't seem to be any exception.
The subject matter itself seems to interest most of us, so it's all about credibility and bandwagon effect from there. It just needed a couple of serious articles by reputable newspapers, and others followed, which sort of allowed the public to speak about it seriously as well.

I for one haven't really given that much thought for the whole matter for more than a decade since O'Hare. Speaking of which:

The best thing to do is go about our business and see what time does for this whole thing.
That's what seems to have happened to the O'Hare case. Pretty much everybody seemed to just wait to see what time does. It just faded away, like memories. It could have been something more, there could have been reliable witnesses to be interviewed, maybe even pics. To me it has always looked like a missed opportunity. It took more than a decade before this Nimitz case hit the news and I once again had real reason to look at the matter seriously. If this doesn't lead to anything, well, let's talk about the next one maybe in 2030 or something then...

I know there are many who are already convinced that aliens are here or something similar and see cases like this as just another confirmation among many other cases. But for people like me it doesn't really matter how many mediocre cases there are, especially since most of them are more likely something else and will rather decrease the overall credibility. Just give me one solid case or a few, and then I take it seriously.

On this note I wrote to the TTSA people asking them why they had no serious ufologists on their team and they told me that they could not answer my question and referred me to their public relations circular. A follow-up request asking them why they could not answer my question has gone unanswered. Needless to say I'm not impressed.
I have seen similar stories in other forums. It seems like they are using that as their excuse for not answering to anything. The more I have seen how they operate, the more worried I am. Because of that:

It's just a matter of time before the media messes up and are embarrassed by airing some hoax video or story they think is legit because they don't do their homework first and are just hungry for ratings. Then it will all go back to not being taken seriously.
There has always been media making "Elvis was an alien" type of articles, and I believe that most understand those tell more about the media and less about the actual subject. It's not that hard to see that the media is a separate entity from the subject they are reporting about.

I'm more worried it's the TTSA that messes this up. One of the problems being that people in general probably don't see a similar clear separation between the parties that are involved, and that suits the agenda of the TTSA. They are not simply trying to shout out that "Look at this interesting case!". They seem to be at least as interested in shouting "Look at us! Invest in us! This interview is EXCLUSIVE to us!".

One of the reasons that makes the Nimitz case so compelling to me is that I can't see Fravor and others have had any obvious motives to perform a hoax for money or fame, and they have put their own personal reputation on the line. That is pretty much the opposite to the way TTSA has been structured, which is more like "disclosure for profit and entertainment", to put it bluntly. When people start to associate those too together too strongly, we see comments like these on Metabunk:

I think it's fair to say Fravor is a party to an effort to solicit investments for anti-gravity technology, ie, a salesman.
...
I don't think we know that money didn't change hands. He's had his story aired to millions of people all across major media. So it's not like an interview for TTSA was helping him get his story out. More like he was contributing his fame to assist what I believe is an obvious effort to dupe and bamboozle people on a false promise that their "investment" will bring about anti-gravity technology. Surely this is one of or the biggest scam(s) in the annals of woo-woo. I'd like to believe it was true, but my BS meter has maxed out.
2004 USS Nimitz Tic Tac UFO FLIR footage

As we know, reputation is hard to gain, harder to keep, easy to lose. I am actually sorry to say this, but at the moment at least, I see TTSA more as a liability for Fravor and this Nimitz case.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
OK how about quietly sliding through a 22 million dollar off-the-books allotment to investigate UFOs and we'll operate it out of a fictional janitorial office down there on the lower parking level?
Wish I could!

My point is that some folks may look at that number and think there's some giant program going on, when it's not actually a big number at all in modern bureaucracies.

And I just don't think any meta-level analysis or reporting project is going to yield anything.

We need new data that is verifiable and with controls in place.

Otherwise, we have more interesting anecdotes with blobby videos or pictures... but we have loads of those already.
 

Carl Grove

Paranormal Novice
It is a very complicated situation and I don't think that promoting one particular interpretation of it is wise or helpful. What are the basic facts?

1. For many decades we have been hearing about attempted interceptions of UFOs, involving radar-visual sightings sometimes with multiple witnesses and independent radar equipment. We have also been hearing about dark-clothed government agents confiscating photographic and radar evidence and warning witnesses not to speak about it. At least in the early days when Blue Book was under Ruppelt and intentionally releasing UFO reports to Donald Keyhoe, we had a lot of such cases revealed.

2. Also for decades, high up officials in the Air Force and government have been denying that UFOs have any defence significance and pouring scorn on the alien craft theory.

3. Suddenly, and totally without precedent in the US anyway, not only has it been officially admitted that the Pentagon has been running a UFO program, but its head has been giving TV interviews. And a tape of an alleged UFO has been released. And the pilot has been interviewed on TV.

4. Forget whistle blowing and similar concepts. None of these things could have happened without official sanction.

5. S
omebody at a very high level in the US establishment has permitted all these revelations.

6. We don't know for sure but it is possible that someone believes they know that UFOs are alien in origin and has decided that people must be told the truth. I don't go for this one. Why, when the official line has for years been that UFOs aren't real, has a lot of effort been made, beginning with Roswell, to promote the extraterrestrial theory through various disinformation operations and possible mind control? I have argued that the major aim is to cover up the US's own efforts in field propulsion, which likely have had some success (whether via Tesla, Biefield-Brown, or the Bell, we can only guess). But the more sinister possibility is that the scenario said to have been revealed by von Braun, namely a succession of threats -- terrorism, asteroid impact, and finally alien invasion -- is reaching a critical stage. What next? The worst case is of some horrendous atrocity that can be blamed on extraterrestrials. God forbid that happens, but it wouldn't be impossible to set up.

7. One thing is certain -- whatever happens UFOs will go on appearing, behaving oddly, and going on their way, as they have for many years.
 

Hollywood Tomfortas

Paranormal Adept
Subjecting the name Luis Elizondo to cursory psycho-forensic anagrammatical analysis yields a distinctive and robustly bifurcated cluster mapping of oppositional emotional phrases that make Luis the perfect spokesman for TTSA during this preliminary (“modified limited hangout”) stage of public UAP/UFO disclosure.

This does not mean that Luis is, like a stereotypical politician, “all things to all people” but rather that Luis has a distinct Zen-like “tabula rasa” quality to his personhood that quite irresistibly invites projection of others upon him of both psychiatric sympathies and antipathies.

Let me start with two starkly opposed anagrams to illustrate the “Love-Hate” reactions that Luis engenders:

[1] LIONIZED SOUL

Here I only need mention the name of Paracaster Thomas R. Morrison as the exemplar of this kind of admiration for Luis.

================

[2]. LO! ZOUNDS! I LIE!

I suppose I should name SLR as the Paracaster exemplar for this sentiment against Luis. But also note that this is a self-referential anagram which then must be interpreted on 2 levels, first the literal and then the meta-level — both of which express Luis’ keen awareness of the effect he has in drawing forth the love and hate from his admirers and detractors, but here you see, he actually delights in self-mockery aimed at those who question his honesty — a sure sign of his, well, Zen-like quality.

=============

[3] I, ZEN SOUL IDOL
[4] ODIOUS ILL ZEN. (With variant: ODIOUS? I’LL ZEN!]

ZEN appears as an important keyword in many of the anagrams and I give 2 here, to show that Luis is, in the New Age parlance, ably practicing well the Zen of non-dualism, transcending the mutually exclusive polarities of [1] and [2] above. Note [4] which resonates with 2 interpretations due to the ambiguity of ILL = “sick” and I’LL = “I will”. The first indicates how Luis practices Zen to deal with all that comes his way that is either “odious” or “ill” or both. The variant then makes that Zen practice much more clear.

=======

[5] I SIN; OOZE DULL
[6] DOZE ILLUSION

Those of you familiar with the pedagogy of Waldorf schools, developed by Rudolf Steiner (1861-1925) know that the children are “grokked” by the teacher according to the 4 Humors or 4 temperaments: sanguine, choleric, phlegmatic, melancholic.

Since Luis is the classic phlegmatic body type (with his ego “surfing”, as it were, more the waves of his endocrine glandular system), then it’s not surprising to see anagrams expressing that temperament.
But once again Luis has been doing his Zen, and so he is keenly self-aware of the pitfalls and negative side of the phlegmatic temperament, which invariably falls into dullness, stupor and becoming quite boring and repetitious. He knows that when he falters, he will begin to ooze dullness to others, and when he dozes, he can fall prey to illusion, or become deluded. But, in the main, he expresses the positive side of the temperament which is being an indefatigable and assiduous worker who knows how to get things done.

————-

[7] LOUD SIZE LION

Yes, Luis has a temper and keeps it in check 99.99% of the time, but do beware of the volcanic eruption that is the other 0.01%

====

[8]. LO! IDOLIZE SUN!

Finally, I want to end this anagrammata-gram with a positive affirmation of Luis’ very upbeat and optimistic spirituality. He is not urging us here to become pagan sun-worshippers (idolizing the physical or macrocosmic sun), but rather to acknowledge and validate the microcosmic heart, which in alchemical parlance is the human heart, (if you know your astrology, Leo the Lion rules the heart) thus bringing us full Ouroboritic circle back to Luis anagram [1]

LIONIZED SOUL
 

Thomas R Morrison

Paranormal Adept
It is a very complicated situation and I don't think that promoting one particular interpretation of it is wise or helpful.
I emphatically disagree with that statement.

We all have a social obligation to be informed about the issues, to formulate positions based on that information and the application of reason, and to advocate those positions to the best of our ability so the best memes can prevail in vibrant public debates.

This core principle is why the academic scientific process works - informed peers publish their findings and advocate for a given interpretation of those results, and then dissenting views respond with their own findings and interpretations, until a clear victor emerges. This principle is also at the heart of our political process where a (formerly) free press debates policy and social issues until a majority consensus prevails, which is (or rather, should be) then codified into law to express the will of the people.

So if you’re not promoting an informed and rational interpretation of the significant issues that interest you, then you’ve forsaken your social responsibility to participate in the vibrant adversarial battlefield of ideas.

It’s a shame that you led with this, because I liked much of what followed in your post.

psycho-forensic anagrammatical analysis
Holy cow – is this what we’ve come to? Shall we now embrace numerology, astrology, phrenology, and palmistry? Rubbish.

Sir, I posit that you’ve abandoned anything even remotely resembling intellectual integrity or rationality, and everything that you say should now be forever regarded with the utmost suspicion in the minds of every reader at this forum.
 

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