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"Top questions and doubts about UFO whistleblower, Luis Elizondo "

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marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
What about energy creating space time curvature? Astrophysicists found black holes and neutron starts that curve space time, but nobody so far found pure radiation that curves space-time. And GR predicts that.
Yup it does. Saw an experiment that validated it, I believe. Will try to find it.

It boils down to mass-energy equivalence I believe.

Edit: Just saw Thomas’ post. Ya, what he said.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
As always @Thomas R Morrison that was excellent explanation. Although I expected that answer ;-)

But try this. If one plugged in a total energy of all the gluons inside planet Earth into energy-stress tensor, with corresponding density etc., would he get the same space-time curvature as Earth's gravitational field creates? In short, can one link Quantum Chromodynamcis and GR?

The greatest thing about GR is that it was completely developed from the first principles and than it later was independently confirmed by experiments. Other theories, like QM or QFT were simply curve-fitted onto experimental data. QFT is matching electron's behavior down to 12 digits because it was shoehorned all the way. But when QFT is tested on muons, electron's first cousin, than it only matches about 5-6 digits. So, QFT is still unfinished. More shoehorning on the way :)
I believe the gluons would need an equivalent amount of energy as the Earth has.

Which is quite a lot.
 

Constance

Paranormal Adept
Re the excuse that 'you can't plan for it', the elephant remaining in the room signifies that many phenomena we can't 'plan for' continue to appear. The choices articulated in this long and interesting conversation fall along the dividing line between those who say "according to my paradigm that can't happen so let's ignore it", and those who say "we should investigate the anomalous until we either reconfirm the current paradigm or move beyond it."
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Re the excuse that 'you can't plan for it', the elephant remaining in the room signifies that many phenomena we can't 'plan for' continue to appear. The choices articulated in this long and interesting conversation fall along the dividing line between those who say "according to my paradigm that can't happen so let's ignore it", and those who say "we should investigate the anomalous until we either reconfirm the current paradigm or move beyond it."
Uh, no, it’s called not moving the goalposts for something you want to be true.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Now I get it – you and marduk are hung up on my informal use of the phrase “a valid theoretical proof.” The correct formal terminology would have been “a valid theoretical derivation,” because technically there isn’t even a formal proof for general relativity - nobody’s ever come up with a purely axiomatic derivation of it:
Hmm... maybe?

When I think proof, I think in one of three paths:

  1. A valid logical proof, like a sentential logic formal proof. Like Modus Ponens.
  2. A valid mathematical proof. Like Godel's theorem.
  3. Experimental empirical evidence achieved using the scientific method.

Regarding relativity, 1 and 2 haven't been proven, but 3 has. It really doesn't have context in 1 or 2. Attempting to axiomatically prove E=MC^2 would be a category mistake, I believe.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Haha – you have to understand a logical fallacy before you can use it in a debate. The appeal to authority fallacy doesn’t apply to scientific theories like GR, because they’re established by evidence - observation and experiment, not by individual and fallible human beings or nebulous entities like "the scientific community" - relativists are well aware that negative/repulsive gravitation is an intrinsic and well-proven concept in GR, and always has been (starting with the cosmological constant). The larger consensus of scientists which includes biologists, psychologists, etc., isn't relevant to this discussion at all.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia

As for the rest, whatever. I've made my points, and defended them, and then defended them some more, so people can draw their own conclusions. This has devolved into pointless nit-picking and bickering. The rest of us have better ways of spending our time.
Listen guys, you both have made some good points.

You have to admit Thomas, he's poked some holes in some soft spots in your argument. It doesn't mean your argument is invalid, it means it needs more work.

This place can be a crucible or dojo - it's not a court determining right or wrong.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Then your case is worse than I thought.
I literally mean I don't know what that sentence means.

I believe you are trying to say that our current scientific paradigm is incapable of resolving the conundrums we are currently facing?

Or something?
 

Hollywood Tomfortas

Paranormal Adept
Well, Brother Morrison, the time has come for me to disclose my “Sekret” TTSA agenda here in the Kingdom of Paracast. You first designated me as a possible Disinformation Agent of the government, and your instincts were right, just not in focus. To clarify, I do not report to anyone in the gov’t but to an “Evaluator” in TTSA. Nor do I spread “disinfo,” to sow “discord” here, but rather do I glean real info to reap rewards for the targets of my mission.

You see dear Brother Morrison, (may I call you Frater Thomas in honor of the Thelemic roots of TTSA?) I am here to scout prospects for TTSA and I am now authorized to disclose that you are #1 on my RRR form. (Recruitment Recommendation Roster). Not to worry though, I’m just the Scout who informs the Recruiter. But if you were to read the glowing report I have drawn up for you, well, you would blush with embarrassment and self-deprecate with proper modesty. (Give it 6 months after a FOIA request and you can read it.)

But I can reveal a précis of the “Executive Summary” which is unclassified but still not to be disseminated in full.

What first caught my Eagle scout’s (yes I’m in the Aviary) attention, Brother Morrison, was your all-consuming passion for engineering the Spacetime metric to achieve your guiding Utopian dream of leaving this planet for Bliss Beyond, if I may coin a phrase. You demonstrate a most winsome yearning for transcendence, which indicates a personal desire to be anywhere but here, though I don’t yet know enough about you to determine whether it’s the external shackles of the planet earth environment you wish to escape, or, the internal constraints of your physical body. (SOMA SEMA as the Stoics would say: “The body is a grave [for the soul].”)

Be that as it may, there are a few issues to clear up first about your recruitment. And I am also authorized to tip you off a little bit about the final test you must take and pass before you can be initiated into the TTSA fold. (More about that later but I’m confident you will do well since the test involves advanced modern physics notions like GR, QED, QCD, QFT, Amplituhedron, Standard Model stuff, etc.)

Now first we must address the proverbial “elephant in the box,” a phenomenon with far more gravitas than Schrödinger’s quite portable cat.

So please do not take this the wrong way, as I will eventually explain it, but Thomas, you’ve always impressed me as a “Scientology kinda guy.” However, I must immediately assure you that it’s not your grandmother’s Scientology anymore, but instead, a new kind, one gloriously liberated from the stifling shackles of its founder’s dark and dismal — yea, I will even say pathological — personality defects. In fact, we might characterize this Nouveau Scientology as a decentralized, egalitarian, non-hierarchical crowd-sourcing Scientology with a new name that honors the history of its Intelligence Agency roots. I proudly present to you now: The OSS = Open Source Scientology.

Now before you recoil too much in horror at the prospect of joining a cult-religion, allow me to reassure you that you will be owing no allegiance at all to the original founder, Lafayette Ron Hubbard, the same way that Martin Luther, e.g., no longer owed allegiance to the Pope after 1519. You see, the OSS of TTSA is really a breakaway sect founded by the visionary pioneer who had himself achieved Operating-Thetan VII (OT-7) status in the mother religion in 1968. Of course, he is none other than your local spacetime metric engineering hero, Dr. Harold E. Puthoff.

Now let me give you time to absorb the shock of this revelation before I prep you for solving the initiation riddle. When you pass, you’ll be whisked away to Las Vegas to intern at Bigelow Aerospace where, who knows, by the end of the year you might even be sent on a test flight and if successful, you could send Brother Realm a postcard from Zeta Reticuli, taunting him as a Terra Firma stick-in-the-mud.

Your faithful scout (actually hierophant),

Father Thomasius


PS Speaking of Brother Realm, that reminds me. I have a research assignment for him.

Brother Realm, I want you to research how Hal Puthoff was able to break away from the mothership Church of Scientology yet be so remarkably immune to the inevitable ominous and draconian consequences of all others who dare leave the cult. Hal was never declared a Suppressive or a Squirrel and never subjected to the Gestapo-like harassment others would receive. Curious, isn’t it?
 

Constance

Paranormal Adept
I literally mean I don't know what that sentence means.

I believe you are trying to say that our current scientific paradigm is incapable of resolving the conundrums we are currently facing?
No. I'm saying that we do not know whether the current scientific paradigm is capable of solving those conundrums that persist, that challenge the presuppositions still embedded in the paradigm. Like it or not, to claim that the current paradigm can and will do so is an act of faith.
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
No. I'm saying that we do not know whether the current scientific paradigm is capable of solving those conundrums that persist, that challenge the presuppositions still embedded in the paradigm. Like it or not, to claim that the current paradigm can and will do so is an act of faith.
Do you have something to offer as an alternative?
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Well, Brother Morrison, the time has come for me to disclose my “Sekret” TTSA agenda here in the Kingdom of Paracast. You first designated me as a possible Disinformation Agent of the government, and your instincts were right, just not in focus. To clarify, I do not report to anyone in the gov’t but to an “Evaluator” in TTSA. Nor do I spread “disinfo,” to sow “discord” here, but rather do I glean real info to reap rewards for the targets of my mission.

You see dear Brother Morrison, (may I call you Frater Thomas in honor of the Thelemic roots of TTSA?) I am here to scout prospects for TTSA and I am now authorized to disclose that you are #1 on my RRR form. (Recruitment Recommendation Roster). Not to worry though, I’m just the Scout who informs the Recruiter. But if you were to read the glowing report I have drawn up for you, well, you would blush with embarrassment and self-deprecate with proper modesty. (Give it 6 months after a FOIA request and you can read it.)

But I can reveal a précis of the “Executive Summary” which is unclassified but still not to be disseminated in full.

What first caught my Eagle scout’s (yes I’m in the Aviary) attention, Brother Morrison, was your all-consuming passion for engineering the Spacetime metric to achieve your guiding Utopian dream of leaving this planet for Bliss Beyond, if I may coin a phrase. You demonstrate a most winsome yearning for transcendence, which indicates a personal desire to be anywhere but here, though I don’t yet know enough about you to determine whether it’s the external shackles of the planet earth environment you wish to escape, or, the internal constraints of your physical body. (SOMA SEMA as the Stoics would say: “The body is a grave [for the soul].”)

Be that as it may, there are a few issues to clear up first about your recruitment. And I am also authorized to tip you off a little bit about the final test you must take and pass before you can be initiated into the TTSA fold. (More about that later but I’m confident you will do well since the test involves advanced modern physics notions like GR, QED, QCD, QFT, Amplituhedron, Standard Model stuff, etc.)

Now first we must address the proverbial “elephant in the box,” a phenomenon with far more gravitas than Schrödinger’s quite portable cat.

So please do not take this the wrong way, as I will eventually explain it, but Thomas, you’ve always impressed me as a “Scientology kinda guy.” However, I must immediately assure you that it’s not your grandmother’s Scientology anymore, but instead, a new kind, one gloriously liberated from the stifling shackles of its founder’s dark and dismal — yea, I will even say pathological — personality defects. In fact, we might characterize this Nouveau Scientology as a decentralized, egalitarian, non-hierarchical crowd-sourcing Scientology with a new name that honors the history of its Intelligence Agency roots. I proudly present to you now: The OSS = Open Source Scientology.

Now before you recoil too much in horror at the prospect of joining a cult-religion, allow me to reassure you that you will be owing no allegiance at all to the original founder, Lafayette Ron Hubbard, the same way that Martin Luther, e.g., no longer owed allegiance to the Pope after 1519. You see, the OSS of TTSA is really a breakaway sect founded by the visionary pioneer who had himself achieved Operating-Thetan VII (OT-7) status in the mother religion in 1968. Of course, he is none other than your local spacetime metric engineering hero, Dr. Harold E. Puthoff.

Now let me give you time to absorb the shock of this revelation before I prep you for solving the initiation riddle. When you pass, you’ll be whisked away to Las Vegas to intern at Bigelow Aerospace where, who knows, by the end of the year you might even be sent on a test flight and if successful, you could send Brother Realm a postcard from Zeta Reticuli, taunting him as a Terra Firma stick-in-the-mud.

Your faithful scout (actually hierophant),

Father Thomasius


PS Speaking of Brother Realm, that reminds me. I have a research assignment for him.

Brother Realm, I want you to research how Hal Puthoff was able to break away from the mothership Church of Scientology yet be so remarkably immune to the inevitable ominous and draconian consequences of all others who dare leave the cult. Hal was never declared a Suppressive or a Squirrel and never subjected to the Gestapo-like harassment others would receive. Curious, isn’t it?
Man, you made me laugh out loud for reals.
 

Thomas R Morrison

Paranormal Adept
Well, Brother Morrison, the time has come for me to disclose my “Sekret” TTSA agenda here in the Kingdom of Paracast. You first designated me as a possible Disinformation Agent of the government, and your instincts were right, just not in focus. To clarify, I do not report to anyone in the gov’t but to an “Evaluator” in TTSA. Nor do I spread “disinfo,” to sow “discord” here, but rather do I glean real info to reap rewards for the targets of my mission.

You see dear Brother Morrison, (may I call you Frater Thomas in honor of the Thelemic roots of TTSA?) I am here to scout prospects for TTSA and I am now authorized to disclose that you are #1 on my RRR form. (Recruitment Recommendation Roster). Not to worry though, I’m just the Scout who informs the Recruiter. But if you were to read the glowing report I have drawn up for you, well, you would blush with embarrassment and self-deprecate with proper modesty. (Give it 6 months after a FOIA request and you can read it.)

But I can reveal a précis of the “Executive Summary” which is unclassified but still not to be disseminated in full.

What first caught my Eagle scout’s (yes I’m in the Aviary) attention, Brother Morrison, was your all-consuming passion for engineering the Spacetime metric to achieve your guiding Utopian dream of leaving this planet for Bliss Beyond, if I may coin a phrase. You demonstrate a most winsome yearning for transcendence, which indicates a personal desire to be anywhere but here, though I don’t yet know enough about you to determine whether it’s the external shackles of the planet earth environment you wish to escape, or, the internal constraints of your physical body. (SOMA SEMA as the Stoics would say: “The body is a grave [for the soul].”)

Be that as it may, there are a few issues to clear up first about your recruitment. And I am also authorized to tip you off a little bit about the final test you must take and pass before you can be initiated into the TTSA fold. (More about that later but I’m confident you will do well since the test involves advanced modern physics notions like GR, QED, QCD, QFT, Amplituhedron, Standard Model stuff, etc.)

Now first we must address the proverbial “elephant in the box,” a phenomenon with far more gravitas than Schrödinger’s quite portable cat.

So please do not take this the wrong way, as I will eventually explain it, but Thomas, you’ve always impressed me as a “Scientology kinda guy.” However, I must immediately assure you that it’s not your grandmother’s Scientology anymore, but instead, a new kind, one gloriously liberated from the stifling shackles of its founder’s dark and dismal — yea, I will even say pathological — personality defects. In fact, we might characterize this Nouveau Scientology as a decentralized, egalitarian, non-hierarchical crowd-sourcing Scientology with a new name that honors the history of its Intelligence Agency roots. I proudly present to you now: The OSS = Open Source Scientology.

Now before you recoil too much in horror at the prospect of joining a cult-religion, allow me to reassure you that you will be owing no allegiance at all to the original founder, Lafayette Ron Hubbard, the same way that Martin Luther, e.g., no longer owed allegiance to the Pope after 1519. You see, the OSS of TTSA is really a breakaway sect founded by the visionary pioneer who had himself achieved Operating-Thetan VII (OT-7) status in the mother religion in 1968. Of course, he is none other than your local spacetime metric engineering hero, Dr. Harold E. Puthoff.

Now let me give you time to absorb the shock of this revelation before I prep you for solving the initiation riddle. When you pass, you’ll be whisked away to Las Vegas to intern at Bigelow Aerospace where, who knows, by the end of the year you might even be sent on a test flight and if successful, you could send Brother Realm a postcard from Zeta Reticuli, taunting him as a Terra Firma stick-in-the-mud.

Your faithful scout (actually hierophant),

Father Thomasius


PS Speaking of Brother Realm, that reminds me. I have a research assignment for him.

Brother Realm, I want you to research how Hal Puthoff was able to break away from the mothership Church of Scientology yet be so remarkably immune to the inevitable ominous and draconian consequences of all others who dare leave the cult. Hal was never declared a Suppressive or a Squirrel and never subjected to the Gestapo-like harassment others would receive. Curious, isn’t it?
Lol - yeah even I have to admit that was pretty flippin' hilarious.

I think you're completely out of your frickin' mind, but it's still funny.

It's certainly an unpopular position to give these guys a chance. But that's all I'm doing. Feel free to burn me at the stake for my heresy against the Orthodoxy of Pathological Cynicism running rampant around here. I just don't believe in declaring defeat before any effort is made. Crazy, huh?
 

marduk

quelling chaos since 2352BC
Lol - yeah even I have to admit that was pretty flippin' hilarious.

I think you're completely out of your frickin' mind, but it's still funny.

It's certainly an unpopular position to give these guys a chance. But that's all I'm doing. Feel free to burn me at the stake for my heresy against the Orthodoxy of Pathological Cynicism running rampant around here. I just don't believe in declaring defeat before any effort is made. Crazy, huh?
That’s funny, too.
 

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