Socorro UFO Incident Questions

[exo_doc]

considering the location of the sighting, it might have been an experimental moon lander being tested.

Why the scerecy then? Wouldn't NASA have flaunted such a craft?

 

[exo_doc]

This is a sketch made by Lonnie Zamora of what he saw:

And this was NASA's moon lander test vehicle:

And if I remember correctly, that was a JET engine, not a rocket giving lift.

Compare the two. Any resemblence?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Everyone knows that when the para-power reactors overheat they shoot flames out the ports. It is a safety feature. Sorta.

lol, yeah but... Accordimg to Ray, Zamora's description was of the apparent engine flames, heat and exhaust knifing into the ground. The heat apparently was not deflected by the hard-pan earth, but heat was present as we know from the ignited chico bushes in the AF report.

*psssttt* Another interesting bit of physical evidence that Ray has managed to hold on to is a piece of vitrified rock from the site that shows rudimentary quartz/crystalline structures melted from/by some sort of high-heat event... but who cares about physical evidence, right Tony? ... let's dig up questionable letters. listen to ineuendo and confabulate them into a grandstanding theory to attempt to debunk this extremely well-documented event.
Yeah, nice try guy...

 

[trainedobserver]

The Soccoro case has a definite place in UFO history. The fact that it is controversial is just par for the course.

 

[bbridges]

The Soccoro case has a definite place in UFO history. The fact that it is controversial is just par for the course.

Ahhh, New Mexico, Land of Enchantment...

 

[Bob Watson]

trianed hope this helps you find the spot!
Socorro Landing

 

[boomerang]

Keyhoe, Ruppelt - thinking of going that way. Any reason I should not, cos there is a contemporary book that's better?

Early ufologists (the good ones) provide a kind of historical frame of reference to the modern age of ufo's. Investigators and writers seemed to have operated in an atmosphere of lower ambient sociological noise. It was not unusual to see credible reports on the front pages of major newspapers in olden times. IMO, the subject was not treated with as much overt contempt by national media. People in positions of power seemed as genuinely puzzled as the public. We can't say for certain.

Valle notes that the information age has made uncontaminated field study almost impossible. One could in, say 1952, be among the first to speak one-on-one with witnesses, given adequate motivation and ability to travel. Things now "go viral" overnight.

The first head of the Central Intelligence Agency, Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, was also among the founders of NICAP in late 1950's and early 1960's, serving on their board of governors from "about 1957 until 1962" [wiki]. Try to imagine Bush senior as president of MUFON. Something has obviously changed.

 

[Randall]

I would consider this to be a case of "high strangeness" based on officer Zamora's observation of flames coming from the craft.
Pixel already pointed out that advanced visiting ET's probably wouldn't use something so primitive and inefficient as rocket propulsion. The size of the craft would not allow room for very much fuel.
So what the heck was it? It used a rocket propulsion to land, then take off. It created orange/blue flames.
At take off, after the object attained a few meters in height, the rocket shut off, it became silent, then flew away.
Why would two humanoids want to land there anyway? And get out and walk around?

It's really bizarre when you think about how illogical the whole event is.

My two cents about a possible hoax: How would hoaxers know there would be anyone around to see their craft? As I recall, it was a fairly remote area. If I went to all the trouble to build a rocket powered craft of some sort, I sure wouldn't fly it out in the middle of no where if I were hoaxing. I'd make sure there were lots of witnesses.
And how did they time it to coincide with officer Zamora's arrival?

All good points. I suppose that one might propose that if it was a hoax that the car Zamora was chasing was in on it and intended to get Zamora to give chase and lead him out to where the event took place. Anyway, my opinion on the event is that it was not a UFO ( alien craft ) because the majority of the event can be explained using technology of the day e.g. jet and/or rocket power, there were human looking occupants, and it was in proximity to a military testing area ( White Sands ). If it wasn't an elaborate hoax, then I think Quintanilla was onto something with his LEM theory, only that it was some kind of spin off rather than the actual LEM test vehicle. If it was a hoax then it must have been Zamora himself who perpetrated it. I don't see how a bunch of college kids could pull off a stunt that sophisticated ( a rocket powered flying vehicle capable of carrying occupants ).

 

[Randall]

Keyhoe, Ruppelt - thinking of going that way. Any reason I should not, cos there is a contemporary book that's better?

Get a decent UFO encyclopedia like JCs ( Jerome Clark's ) and pick up a copy of Beyond Top Secret by Timothy Good. Kean's latest book is also pretty good, and to round it out with a bit of skepticism get Alexander's latest book as well. Collect as many classics and other titles as you can and build yourself a UFO library. I have quite a few titles available directly through USI, plus we have our online Amazon specialty catalog. Visit www.ufopages.com to view the catalog. For a list of titles available directly from USI send me an email.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Thanks for the suggestions. I read Above Top Secret but not 'Beyond' as yet. I have a copy of Leslie's book and it is a very fine work. I have Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs and I have a copy of 'somebody else is on the moon' (little off topic but you understand) - which I picked up for 50pence !!! I dreamed of even reading that book, did not expect to but found it in a charity shop! Providence indeed!
Has Dolan become recommended reading?
Jerome has been and still is on le list!

Oh and you have a good point that I should indeed make sure I read some skeptical work. I try not to be closed-minded about looking at all sides but it can be difficult when you read quotes by supposedly intelligent skeptics that amount to bargain-basement debunking. It's as horrid as buying into the one-armed swiss cowboy.

I shall indeed reach out to see your list. Cheers

 

[trainedobserver]

trianed hope this helps you find the spot!
Socorro Landing

Wow! Thanks Bob! That is exactly what I was after!

 

[Trajanus]

Pixel already pointed out that advanced visiting ET's probably wouldn't use something so primitive and inefficient as rocket propulsion.

In fact there are other reports of such propulsion in strange craft. Not all UFOs have to be hyperadvanced.

The size of the craft would not allow room for very much fuel.

Which may explain why it was soon turned off.

Why would two humanoids want to land there anyway? And get out and walk around?

They could've been there to collect samples of soil or air in a sensitive area or because of some mechanical glitch they planned to fix where they thought they could work without interruption.

My two cents about a possible hoax: How would hoaxers know there would be anyone around to see their craft? As I recall, it was a fairly remote area. If I went to all the trouble to build a rocket powered craft of some sort, I sure wouldn't fly it out in the middle of no where if I were hoaxing. I'd make sure there were lots of witnesses.

This whole hoax allegation is a complete waste of time. Nobody should even bother with it it until the actual alleged perpetrators come forward and show how they did it i.e. just as soon as all hell freezes over.

And how did they time it to coincide with officer Zamora's arrival?

In fact the noise they made attracted him.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

There have been many UFO sightings of strange horizontally-flying objects that seem to have some kind of fire or jet thrust - but not necessarily solely for lift?

I have often scratched my head at reports of such things, but then I think of the stuff at the Sherman ranch and I just give up even trying to work it out!

 

[Ezechiel]

i doubt a ET craft landed via some sort of flaming rocket power.

Good point... but...

The real question is: If you've solved the interstellar space travel dilemma does it automatically mean that you've stopped using chemical reactions for controlled landings on alien planets. It might be a fusion reactor releasing extra heat ?

If you factor in the potential of thousands of civilizations at different stages of evolution... you're bound to run into all kinds of strategies that get the mission done.

All kinds of weird fish in the seas

 

[Randall]

Thanks for the suggestions. I read Above Top Secret but not 'Beyond' as yet. I have a copy of Leslie's book and it is a very fine work. I have Alien Agenda by Jim Marrs and I have a copy of 'somebody else is on the moon' (little off topic but you understand) - which I picked up for 50pence !!! I dreamed of even reading that book, did not expect to but found it in a charity shop! Providence indeed!
Has Dolan become recommended reading?
Jerome has been and still is on le list!

Oh and you have a good point that I should indeed make sure I read some skeptical work. I try not to be closed-minded about looking at all sides but it can be difficult when you read quotes by supposedly intelligent skeptics that amount to bargain-basement debunking. It's as horrid as buying into the one-armed swiss cowboy.

I shall indeed reach out to see your list. Cheers

Beyond Top Secret is just an updated version of Above Top Secret. But it's still worth having if you can get a good deal on it.

 

[exo_doc]

In fact there are other reports of such propulsion in strange craft. Not all UFOs have to be hyperadvanced.

True there have been other reports, especially this one:

The Chiles-Whitted Encounter from 1948. They saw bright orange flames coming from the rear.

The only other one I can think of was the Cash-Landrum encounter from 1980, and this is close to what they saw:

But because of the helicopters in this incident, I'd tend to think that really was some sort of secret test craft that got out of control.

But the main point I was trying to make; If an ETC had the tech to reach earth, it just seems to me ridiculous to think they still have to rely on rocket propulsion. I mean it's bulky(for fuel storage), ineffecient, and dangerous.
But hey, I'm no ET engineer/physicist. Maybe I'm expecting too much.
.
.
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[Ezechiel]

But the main point I was trying to make; If an ETC had the tech to reach earth, it just seems to me ridiculous to think they still have to rely on rocket propulsion. I mean it's bulky(for fuel storage), ineffecient, and dangerous.
But hey, I'm no ET engineer/physicist. Maybe I'm expecting too much.

There's no need to carry the components... just calibrate your engine to use the gases in the destination planet's atmosphere. Suck it in and convert to rocket fuel
http://serc.carleton.edu/sp/mnstep/activities/26400.html

H2O conversion for earth. Methane for Titan.

The powercore driving this cool little fuel manufacturing plant could be a miniature fusion drive. Onboard production for immediate use... with maybe a buffer tank in case something goes wrong LOL.

 

[trainedobserver]

True there have been other reports, especially this one:

The Chiles-Whitted Encounter from 1948. They saw bright orange flames coming from the rear.

The only other one I can think of was the Cash-Landrum encounter from 1980, and this is close to what they saw:

Hence my comment about the para-power reactors© (whatever the hell it is that powers the things) throwing off flame and probably all sorts of nasty radiation under duress. They also appear to throw out slag on occasion as well. The para-power reactor© (patent pending) would appear to use some molten aluminum alloy as either a coolant or part of a kinetic/electromagnetic plasma generator©. You melt it, whirl it around real fast, run some electricity through it and you have anti-gravity via centrifugal force, electromagnetic fields and high energy plasma reacting with the environment. You could "sling" yourself in a direction, produce artificial gravity in the cockpit, "push" yourself using shaped plasma discharges and deflect things in the environment from your path. It has to poot out a bit of the molten metal now for whatever reason and perhaps in doing so plasma and flame fly out as well. There, that is my UFO mythos interpretation based on reading UFO lore for over 45 years. In all reality I have no freaking idea what in the hell is going on.

 

[Bob Watson]

If it was a lunar lander test what about the two humanoids? Those craft could not seat one not alone two. There was no report of any other land air craft. The lunar lander was not secret (I think) so why not just tell him that is what he saw?

 

[trainedobserver]

If it was a lunar lander test what about the two humanoids? Those craft could not seat one not alone two. There was no report of any other land air craft. The lunar lander was not secret (I think) so why not just tell him that is what he saw?

Chimps. They chained a couple of chimps in fire-suits in the damn thing with just enough slack so that they could jump off when it landed. Then, when it was time to go they reeled them back in and took off all via remote control. All this was to simulate astronauts landing, getting out, getting back in and taking off again. Cruel, but hey, the reality of the situation is that human progress is paved in chimpanzee corpses.