Socorro UFO Incident Questions

[trainedobserver]

Wow! Thanks Bob! That is exactly what I was after!

However, that webpage still doesn't tell you where any of that actually is or how it can be found on a map.

 

[exo_doc]

Hence my comment about the para-power reactors© (whatever the hell it is that powers the things) throwing off flame and probably all sorts of nasty radiation under duress. They also appear to throw out slag on occasion as well. The para-power reactor© (patent pending) would appear to use some molten aluminum alloy as either a coolant or part of a kinetic/electromagnetic plasma generator©. You melt it, whirl it around real fast, run some electricity through it and you have anti-gravity via centrifugal force, electromagnetic fields and high energy plasma reacting with the environment. You could "sling" yourself in a direction, produce artificial gravity in the cockpit, "push" yourself using shaped plasma discharges and deflect things in the environment from your path. It has to poot out a bit of the molten metal now for whatever reason and perhaps in doing so plasma and flame fly out as well. There, that is my UFO mythos interpretation based on reading UFO lore for over 45 years. In all reality I have no freaking idea what in the hell is going on.

Why melt it when there are other metals that are in a liquid state at temps higher than freezing water. Mercury comes to mind. Other than it's toxicity, would that work?

 

[exo_doc]

Mybe human

Chimps. They chained a couple of chimps in fire-suits in the damn thing with just enough slack so that they could jump off when it landed. Then, when it was time to go they reeled them back in and took off all via remote control. All this was to simulate astronauts landing, getting out, getting back in and taking off again. Cruel, but hey, the reality of the situation is that human progress is paved in chimpanzee corpses.

Maybe alien progress is paved with human corpses too. Creepy to think about.

 

[trainedobserver]

Why melt it when there are other metals that are in a liquid state at temps higher than freezing water. Mercury comes to mind. Other than it's toxicity, would that work?

I say aluminum because that is what was allegedly found in the Maury Island (I think) and the Bob White object.

 

[Sentry]

Note on the Cash-Landrum UFO- it was reportedly flying horizontally, but while in distress turned to spew flames vertically. When it stabilized, it flew away without the fiery emissions.

There are several UFOs with exhaust or contrails, but they are in the minority. Here's a famous photo from the 50s that Jim Moseley came across in Peru. It shows a UFO with some kind of smoke-like exhaust.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/peru1952.html

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Yeah, these 2 humanoids - were they not supposed to be like 3/4 scale human-size? Of course, Lonnie could have misjudged their height/size due to being unfamiliar with the craft, but at the same time he would know, being local, the relative size of humans to the brush surely?

Considering Lonnie was a police officer for a long time in a small town - and that I have not heard of him being crazy or mentally ill or involved in any other hoax, I would have to think him nuts to have made the whole thing up and maintain the story until he died? I wonder if the hoaxer mentality at the end of life would be to maintain the hoax forever, or have a death-bed confession to enjoy the fact so many fell for the hoax?

Either way, I don't get any of that from Lonnie. I do think he saw something that remains to this a day a mystery and that it was not a hoax perpetrated by or on Lonnie.

 

[Sentry]

There may have been something very unusaual about the little men,according to one of the first eye witnesses to view the trace evidence:

April 24, 1964. Louis Reidel, publisher of the El Defensor Chieftain newspaper in Socorro, is interviewed by Ray Stanford regarding little men with hoofed feet near the object that Officer Lonnie Zamora observed and reported to the USAF investigators. 08:00

Recording of Louis Reidel interviewed by Ray Stanford

More on Zamora & Socorro at: Cops and Saucers

 

[exo_doc]

There may have been something very unusaual about the little men,according to one of the first eye witnesses to view the trace evidence:
Recording of Louis Reidel interviewed by Ray Stanford

More on Zamora & Socorro at: Cops and Saucers

I have never heard of the gas station attendants story : I was wondering about other possible witnesses that never came forward.
04.24.1964. Opel Grinder, service station attendant in Socorro, NM, gives a statement to Ray Stanford regarding the object as seen by customers on the highway who stopped at his station just before Officer Lonnie Zamora came upon the UFO.

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[Trajanus]

I say aluminum because that is what was allegedly found in the Maury Island

Nothing was found at Maury Island except worthless slag. It was a hoax.

 

[Ron Collins]

It still amazes when I see the Parrot Effect take hold. Why would the "it was a college prank" explanation be believed over Zamora? Not a single shred of evince other than secondhand recollections are involved in that "explanation". As for the LEM explanation, there is zero chance of that being an actual explanation in my opinion. Every test run is well documented and meticulously observed. Thats the whole point of testing it. it needed to be observed and things recorded.

As for Stanford, I have many many many many issues with Ray and his various and sundry claims. That conversation would take about a week. However, this case is not among them. I think his book was a very good account with a ton of very useful information.

I don't know why there were flames any more than I know why the craft was egg shaped. Whoever/whatever designed the craft could probably give us chapter and verse as to the merits of both. As to why they were there and why they would want to land there? Presumably, given the ETH, it is another freakin planet. If I found an inhabited planet infested with clusters of a comparatively advanced and intrusive species perhaps I would be interested in knowing more about the places they find inhospitable and unsettle able. Just a thought.

The whole thing seems..... dare I say..... wait for it...... ALIEN???? Who knows. The case itself was fascinating.

 

[Randall]

It still amazes when I see the Parrot Effect take hold. Why would the "it was a college prank" explanation be believed over Zamora? Not a single shred of evince other than secondhand recollections are involved in that "explanation".

The rabid skeptics want to believe it was a hoax so they'll believe anything that supports their theory just like the UFO "believers" want to believe it was an alien craft. The fact is, we don't even know with any certainty that there was any craft, or if there was, who or what made it. The only thing we do know is that given the description, there is a healthy serving of technology that could have been manufactured terrestrially at the time.

As for the LEM explanation, there is zero chance of that being an actual explanation in my opinion. Every test run is well documented and meticulously observed. Thats the whole point of testing it. it needed to be observed and things recorded.

It obviously wasn't the LEM test module itself, but the existence of the test module certainly shows that the technology to create something similar to what was seen was not beyond our grasp.

As for Stanford, I have many many many many issues with Ray and his various and sundry claims. That conversation would take about a week. However, this case is not among them. I think his book was a very good account with a ton of very useful information.

I don't know why there were flames any more than I know why the craft was egg shaped. Whoever/whatever designed the craft could probably give us chapter and verse as to the merits of both. As to why they were there and why they would want to land there? Presumably, given the ETH, it is another freakin planet. If I found an inhabited planet infested with clusters of a comparatively advanced and intrusive species perhaps I would be interested in knowing more about the places they find inhospitable and unsettle able. Just a thought. The whole thing seems..... dare I say..... wait for it...... ALIEN???? Who knows. The case itself was fascinating.

Fascinating? Interesting choice of words. Nice to see you're still intrigued by the topic and not all burnt out like ( insert name here ). However I would not say that the "whole thing" seems alien. On the whole, the balance between what could be explained by existing human technology of the time and what seemed strange appears to be in favor of a terrestrial explanation.

 

[Bob Watson]

I always held this as a top shelf case. Cedable witness physical evidace, multipule witness,the hoax and test lander story don't add up.
The craft seen was
1 a gov project
2 alien

 

[Randall]

Note on the Cash-Landrum UFO- it was reportedly flying horizontally, but while in distress turned to spew flames vertically. When it stabilized, it flew away without the fiery emissions. There are several UFOs with exhaust or contrails, but they are in the minority. Here's a famous photo from the 50s that Jim Moseley came across in Peru. It shows a UFO with some kind of smoke-like exhaust.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/peru1952.html

Quotes from the article:

• "The colour of the head or nucleus of this disc was an intense orange."
• "Suddenly, according to Bardi, the radio went dead. They looked out the window and saw a round object going by at high speed."
• "Though the photo shows a cigar-shaped object instead of the round shape Bardi described, this could possibly have been due to an elongated effect caused by speed."

So we have a glowing intense orange object streaking through the sky leaving a smoke or vaor trail behind it ... hmm ... meteor perhaps? Below is a still from the 1972 Fireball film. I also saw that object and it was pretty awesome. I also saw another similar meteor here in Calgary early one morning on the way to work. But it never even made the news, probably because it was lower on the horizon and didn't last as long so fewer people saw it.

 

[Trajanus]

The fact is, we don't even know with any certainty that there was any craft,

Of course there was a craft. Hallucinations don't cause landing marks.

It obviously wasn't the LEM test module itself, but the existence of the test module certainly shows that the technology to create something similar to what was seen was not beyond our grasp.

But likely well beyond the grasp of hoaxers. And if it was a legitimate government operation why did the occupants run away from a cop? They would've just told him it's alright we're here on orders.

However I would not say that the "whole thing" seems alien. On the whole, the balance between what could be explained by existing human technology of the time and what seemed strange appears to be in favor of a terrestrial explanation.

First, no human craft can keep going after switching off its rocket or obvious propulsive source. Second, if there was a terrestrial explanation, I think we would've heard about it long ago (I mean conclusive proof or evidence). What technology available in 1964 would still be kept secret today? And why has nobody involved with the putative project come forward, after so many years and so much publicity?

 

[Trajanus]

It still amazes when I see the Parrot Effect take hold. Why would the "it was a college prank" explanation be believed over Zamora? Not a single shred of evince other than secondhand recollections are involved in that "explanation".

In addition to the absurdity of the "balloon with candle."

As for the LEM explanation, there is zero chance of that being an actual explanation in my opinion. Every test run is well documented and meticulously observed. Thats the whole point of testing it. it needed to be observed and things recorded.

Of course, as I pointed out to somebody on another board years ago, if it was just some NASA test, that wouldn't be a theory, but a documented fact.

As to why they were there and why they would want to land there? Presumably, given the ETH, it is another freakin planet. If I found an inhabited planet infested with clusters of a comparatively advanced and intrusive species perhaps I would be interested in knowing more about the places they find inhospitable and unsettle able.

Sure if the idea was to monitor US facilities, it would make sense to land in an isolated area nearby to effect repairs or something.

The whole thing seems..... dare I say..... wait for it...... ALIEN????

And we shouldn't have a problem with that. Heck, we are sending astronauts out despite having only a few decades of experience. And we know many stars and planetary systems are much older.

 

[Randall]

NOTE: Converted to point form by ufology.

• Of course there was a craft. Hallucinations don't cause landing marks.
• But likely well beyond the grasp of hoaxers.
• And if it was a legitimate government operation why did the occupants run away from a cop? They would've just told him it's alright we're here on order.
• First, no human craft can keep going after switching off its rocket or obvious propulsive source.
• Second, if there was a terrestrial explanation, I think we would've heard about it long ago (I mean conclusive proof or evidence).
• What technology available in 1964 would still be kept secret today?
• Why has nobody involved with the putative project come forward, after so many years and so much publicity?

• Landing marks can be hoaxed, and they don't prove there was a craft.
• The craft ( if there was one ) would be well beyond the grasp of hoaxers ( agreed ).
• I don't know why the occupants ( if there were any ) would have "ran away". Maybe they were done anyway. Maybe their orders were not to engage in contact. Maybe they weren't American. None of this makes any difference in terms of evidence anyway.
• The apparent ability to fly after the rockets were switched off could conceivably have been due to a switch in the thrust vector or to another form of propulsion ( such as quieter jets ), and the reason those may not have seemed as loud is because rocket engines are so tremendously loud that when the object blasted off, Zamora at his close distance may have been temporarily deafened by them, and when the quieter vertical flight propulsion kicked in, it's not that it wasn't there, it's just that he couldn't hear them as well. Consider this description from the NICAP files: "And almost as soon as Zamora spotted the object, he heard a deafening roar and the thing ascended into the air. The officer took hasty cover as he watched it emit a long blue flame and move directly over the nearby dynamite shack, barely missing the structure by a few feet. The roar soon changed to a high-pitched whine ...
• There are probably lots of smaller mothballed secret programs we'll never hear about, especially if they weren't American.
• Rocket and jet technology isn't secret.
• I don't know why nobody has come forward, but that isn't evidence the craft was alien ( other than perhaps illegally alien ).
• The bottom line is that rocket and jet technology existed at the time and proven flight was achieved with similar engineering. Therefore although the object was definitely unusual, there isn't sufficient evidence based on the report that it could not have been manufactured using known terrestrial technology. Without more information there is simply insufficient reason to claim it was a UFO ( alien craft ).

 

[Ron Collins]

I agree that nothing in this case will bring an AhHa type moment to anyone. That said, I think it has good merit and good research was performed. It is a multi-witness case with the primary being a very well respected person and a trained observer to boot.

But I think you need to abandon ship on the whole "it was an experiment" thing. it would be a terrestrial explaination, true. But you also have zero precedent for it.

Also, what fully functional VSTOL aircraft was available in the entire world at this time?

 

[exo_doc]

I agree that nothing in this case will bring an AhHa type moment to anyone. That said, I think it has good merit and good research was performed. It is a multi-witness case with the primary being a very well respected person and a trained observer to boot.

But I think you need to abandon ship on the whole "it was an experiment" thing. it would be a terrestrial explaination, true. But you also have zero precedent for it.

Also, what fully functional VSTOL aircraft was available in the entire world at this time?

There were suprisingly quite a few V/STOL aircraft....here's some of them:

VTOL Experimental Aircraft PAGE

Couple more:
Army VZ Series PAGE

Here's the POGO

The SNECMA c-450

And the Ryan X-13

Just to name a few....

 

[Bob Watson]

lunar test note ONE MAN! and he is visable at all times!

and a interveiw with lonnie!

 

[Trajanus]

Landing marks can be hoaxed, and they don't prove there was a craft.

They virtually do, in this case. Not only was Zamora credible, there was never even a good hoax theory.

I don't know why the occupants ( if there were any ) would have "ran away". Maybe they were done anyway. Maybe their orders were not to engage in contact. Maybe they weren't American.

Of course not, they were alien. It seems they had very little time to do anything and their departure upon noting a witness is pretty standard.

There are probably lots of smaller mothballed secret programs we'll never hear about, especially if they weren't American.

Never hear about even after several decades....An intruding Soviet or Chinese craft is barely plausible. Did they have an aircraft carrier off the US coast in '64? I don't think either even had carriers. And why test it here, where it can be captured or create a serious incident? Also, inasmuch as any technology back then would be stone age by now, any earthly source would've been revealed, probably some time ago. The government would be glad to do that, since derailing a UFO classic would go a long way toward undermining belief in the phenomenon.

I don't know why nobody has come forward, but that isn't evidence the craft was alien ( other than perhaps illegally alien ).

• The bottom line is that rocket and jet technology existed at the time and proven flight was achieved with similar engineering. Therefore although the object was definitely unusual, there isn't sufficient evidence based on the report that it could not have been manufactured using known terrestrial technology. Without more information there is simply insufficient reason to claim it was a UFO ( alien craft ).

I think the complete lack of a definite prosaic explanation, based on documentation which should be readily available, leaves no good alternative but ET, especially given similar reports e.g. the Frenchman who said an illustration of the socorro craft matched what he saw--he was also zapped by two small beings from that craft, btw.