Nick Redfern's New Book Sounds Intriguing!

[The Pair of Cats]

This conversation is getting very interesting, so I have decided to add this as an aside.

On April 2nd, 1972 while in Viet Nam I was severely wounded when our camp was attacked and then overrun by the enemy. I was med-evaced eventually to the 95th Evac Hospital in Da Nang where I underwent emergency surgery. Later I awoke in the Intensive Care Ward and a military nurse was with me. After I became somewhat coherent she told me that "we thought we lost you. During surgery your heart stopped and we had to get it going again." The thing was, I already knew that. During the procedure I experienced an OBE. What I recall was during the surgery is I began choking, which ended up in massive vomiting, my air cut off and with everything else my heart stopped. I recall suddenly experiencing "floating" about 15 feet or so above "me" and I saw them standing around me and one guy was pounding on my chest. I saw this and later (much later) I realized that I had an NDE. Something was there .. a soul, a spirit, I don't know what but I was no longer in pain, or in discomfort .. so as far as I am concerned .. something else is there besides simply the physical body.

Just my take on it so take it for what it is worth.

Decker

Maybe the human being is "bi-dimensional", that is to say part of it (the body) resides in this physical plane and (the soul) resides in a close or nearby dimension. The brain acts as a kind of liason between the two, receiving and sending information between the two as well as each as a separate. One side of the brain handles mostly the physical information and the other mostly soul information. The trick would be to decipher this information obtained/retained by the soul or to integrate the two.
Maybe in times of stress or when needed, as with NDEs, the soul can be fully accessed or utilized. Both the physical body and the soul maybe dependant on each other to continue, as a partnership to exist in this earthly realm.

 

[Kieran]

There's better evidence for alien mutilation of animals and people than for the "afterlife."



Generally the phenomenon seems technical, not what you'd expect of some mystical "otherworld."

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I just can't see consciousness existing independently of a physical brain. The notion of the "soul" probably first appeared late in the first century CE. By then, many christians were beginning to doubt that jesus would ever return to Earth and physically resurrect the christian dead. So they conjured up an "afterlife" or heaven, where your "soul" goes after you die.

Yes, Animals especially cattle have been discovered dead in mysterious circumstances, but there is not lot of convincing evidence non humans had anything to do with death of the animal discovered. Same for Human Mutilation, if this was actual practice, and considering we have so many reports of abductions having taken place over the years allegedly. Why is there so few cases turning up around the world?

When is the last time you were taken aboard one of those UFO's, for you to have a believe UFO's are technical?

What we are seeing could well turn out to be an illusion created by an advanced intelligence. For what purpose who could say with any authority? It crucial for you to understand this point. We know little or next to nothing about the UFO phenomenon, but you are firm believer in crashed UFO's, so I guess you have reached some decision of what UFO's are already?

No UFO's do often engage in mysterious behaviour disappearing and reappearing in the blink of an eye and emerging from nothingness, while this does confirm UFO's come from a Mystical OtherWorld, it just an extra hint maybe UFO's are not bound by our physical laws?

The Celts existed 700 years before the birth of this person they call Jesus Christ .The Romans borrowed some say stole ideas from the Druid Priests. What I will tell you now might rock a few heads here. The Cross is actually a Celtic Symbol. Constantine was a Pagan ruler before converting to Christianity, he introduced the Pagan Celtic cross as a symbol of Jesus death, but according to the actual tradition or translation Jesus died on a timber pole.

Belief in the Afterlife existed long before Christianity came about, your historically wrong. The Druids one of their beliefs was that the soul lived on. I outlined in one of my last posts that belief in more detail. So long before Christianity was known or discussed or practised the afterlife was believed to exist. According to history anyway we are led to believe the Druids were satanic and worshipped Gods who came from the land of the dead.

Historians believe they slaughtered humans (sacrificed humans) I personally am less than convinced since the Roman demonized their enemies often. Historians based their ideas around remains of executions have been found in the archaeological record, but the victims could well have just been sentenced to death by a court which the Celtic's peoples used often. There was one record of Human sacrifice in Celtic Literature, but was later shown up as being a Christen forgery.

 

[tyder001]

Thanks Kieran. When I saw that silly stuff about "evidence" I thought along the same lines as what you posted. I was just to "lazy" to go into it. Good post.

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I actually get tired (Angel may not believe that since we seem to constantly go back and forth on it) But, I really do get tired and lazy and just give up on arguing at times with folks who think it's all in the brain. Truly, there is much "good" research that points to the "possibilty" of mind apart from the physics of the 18th centruary. There are also good "answers" that argue the point from a materialistic side of things. But, to say "no" evidence is rather silly and just wrong. I listed on another thread a quite "comprehensive" set of links both pro and con concerning the "survival" hyphothisis. There is good research being done by acutual scientist and some very provacative results. But, to be honest I don't "beleive" because the bible says it. I don't beleive becasue a 'scientist" says it. This is acutally one of those things that I trust my "inner" life and life expericence on. I don't try and "convert" anybody but I do enjoy a good respectful conversation. We all (as the bible says) and no I'm far,far far from a bible thumper. But we all "Heap teachers" to our own ears. I peruse the Prescott blog, and Sketpiko and the Paracast and Richard Syrett and Raymond Moody and Doctor Morse and others. Why? becasue they point and at times talk about a world view that "I" agree with or at least am symphathic to. Others, peruse James Randi and Richard Dawkins and CSIOP or whatever they are called today. Why? Because they offer a "certain" take on the world that makes them comforatable. Nothing "wrong" with either side of the argument. The problem (as I see it) is when we try to out yell or out link or out talk the other person with no reguard for the honest genunie passion and the honsest genuine life expereince of the other person. Does that mean we have to "accept" every view as legitimate? No, of course not. But, it does mean there are many ways and views and methods of learning about our "experience" on earth. If I have been disrepectful to anybody here it is becasue I have either been "challenged" (which means I need to look at myself) Or because I have been or felt disrepected myself or that something important to "me" has been handled roughly and perhaps with no real thought or respect by others. Anyway, sorry for the "many" errors in spelling and grammar and puntication. But, this is a "stream" of thought from me to you. I mean no disrepect or harm. Peace.

 

[Trajanus]

Yes, Animals especially cattle have been discovered dead in mysterious circumstances, but there is not lot of convincing evidence non humans had anything to do with death of the animal discovered.

Of course there is because the manner in which many mutilations occurr points to much greater technical expertise than we possess. In some cases, entire internal organs were removed via small apertures.

Same for Human Mutilation, if this was actual practice, and considering we have so many reports of abductions having taken place over the years allegedly. Why is there so few cases turning up around the world?

It's just rarer than animal mutilation or abduction.

When is the last time you were taken aboard one of those UFO's, for you to have a believe UFO's are technical?

That's not necessary; there has been much landing trace evidence.

What we are seeing could well turn out to be an illusion created by an advanced intelligence. For what purpose who could say with any authority? It crucial for you to understand this point. We know little or next to nothing about the UFO phenomenon, but you are firm believer in crashed UFO's, so I guess you have reached some decision of what UFO's are already?

Even without crash accounts, plenty of evidence indicates a physical-technical phenomenon.

No UFO's do often engage in mysterious behaviour disappearing and reappearing in the blink of an eye and emerging from nothingness, while this does confirm UFO's come from a Mystical OtherWorld, it just an extra hint maybe UFO's are not bound by our physical laws?

Many could be holographic projections--perfectly consistent with ETH.

What I will tell you now might rock a few heads here. The Cross is actually a Celtic Symbol. Constantine was a Pagan ruler before converting to Christianity, he introduced the Pagan Celtic cross as a symbol of Jesus death, but according to the actual tradition or translation Jesus died on a timber pole.

Where in the New Testament does it say that?

Belief in the Afterlife existed long before Christianity came about, your historically wrong.

I knew it existed in ancient Egypt millennia before. But the early christians expected a physical resurrection/paradise here on earth, until failure of that nonsense to materialize led to the invention of "heaven" and "hell."

 

[trainedobserver]

I just finished the book today. I'll have to say it is the scariest thing I've read since Communion.

 

[Trajanus]

I just finished the book today. I'll have to say it is the scariest thing I've read since Communion.

Anything about "eating souls," or associated with the AFOSI, should be the funniest.

 

[Kandinsky]

I just finished the book today. I'll have to say it is the scariest thing I've read since Communion.

I've been reading the final chapters of Joe Fisher's book, 'The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts.' If you enjoy the 'scary,' I recommend it. The last few chapters (particularly Ch 19), are quite alarming and fascinating at the same time. In researching 'psychic channelling,' Fisher eventually felt he was overtaken by dark, selfish entities and jumped off a cliff to his death.

I read his book on reincarnation way, way back and know that Fisher was 100% believer in reincarnation. He even had the dalai lama write the preface. Whatever it was that affected him, it caused him to take his own life in the personal belief that he'd have a very negative effect on his subsequent lives. Suicide is quite the no-no apparently...

You can read it on google books...http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&resnum=6&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Chapter 19 shares similar elements with Nick's book and also the deeper ponderings of Vallee and others in the UFO field. Fisher considers these separate negative entities/souls as having some power to affect our reality or perceptions. Much like tricksters and the UFO phenomena they can be many things to many people, he suggests that their ability to affect us is hinged on how much we believe in them.

I'm not saying I believe it all, just that I found it darkly compelling and think other Paracasters will likewise find it fascinating.

 

[trainedobserver]

Anything about "eating souls," or associated with the AFOSI, should be the funniest.

Well, I mean its scary on several different levels. Depending on your level of suspension of disbelief while reading it and depending on which scenario you fell is more probably the truth, is a different level of scary.

Possibilities:
1. Counter-intelligence operation. Disinformation.
2. Everything presented to Nick was about a real program. Not taking into account whether their theories are valid or not.
3. etc., etc.

The scary thing about number one is, "How scary does the "truth" have to be to float this kind of horror story?" The scary thing about the second is just this type of thinking by people in government.

 

[NTS]

In a bizarre way it's actually part of an old pattern. Just as fear of communism (and now Islamism) was used to impose and maintain a national security state, there are some number of people who want use fear of "demons" to impose a theocracy. I vote (while I still can) for trainedobserver's option #2.

 

[Kieran]

Where in the New Testament does it say that?



"

I was going to respond to all your post, but on reflection I decided against it. I counter you and then you respond with an opposing view, were it is best to knowledge now both of us can not agree with each other about the UFO phenomenon and it is best to leave it at that.

I will answer the question above because it's important. There is nothing in the New Testament that states Jesus died on a cross. Simple stakes is what was used by the Romans in executions of prisoners, Historically accurate and Galatians 3:13 THE apostle Paul clearly refers to a stake not a cross. In the Bible you'll find many references to his death, and there is no mention of two pieces of timber across one another at an angle.

Constantine was a Pagan Emperor before he converted to Christianity, and Celtic tribes dominated central Europe before the rise of the Roman empire. We know the Celt's introduced the cross to Europe, and used the cross in their worship and historians are in agreement. Constantine promoted the cross, as a symbol to make it easier for Pagans to accept Christianity.

 

[tyder001]

Kieran, I congratulate you. To actually answer and then decide not to get into an endless post,repost,post,repost arguement. I know this but at times I keep making that mistake. There are times when it's better to simply state what you know or belive and unless you are honestly trying to convert somebody to your worldview just agree to disagree. I'm not saying there is never a time for back and forth but when it comes to religion and politics most folks have their minds "firmly" made up. Seems to be much the same with the paranormal and other issues. I guess it's a "human" thing.




Enlightenment for a wave is the moment the wave realizes that it is water.
At that moment, all fear of death disappears.
Thich Nhat Hanh

 

[Trajanus]

In a bizarre way it's actually part of an old pattern. Just as fear of communism (and now Islamism) was used to impose and maintain a national security state, there are some number of people who want use fear of "demons" to impose a theocracy. I vote (while I still can) for trainedobserver's option #2.

#1 is the most plausible by far. Only a cretin would think a theocracy could be imposed here.

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I will answer the question above because it's important. There is nothing in the New Testament that states Jesus died on a cross.

But the NT says Simon had to carry his cross and holy joe 1 is alleged to have said take up your crosses.

 

[Kieran]

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[/COLOR]

But the NT says Simon had to carry his cross and holy joe 1 is alleged to have said take up your crosses.

You don't have to trust me, but do some research, and you will find out I speak the truth. It common knowledge a stake is what Jesus died on.You are referring to the story that is in the Gospel of the New Testament, but you forget that is the English version of the story. The New Testament was written originally in Greek and later translated into many different languages, the origins of the cross are commonly known to preachers and cross is never mentioned in the Greek or Hebrew version of the New Testament. The word "Staua-Rosa" and "Xulon" are the words used in the Greek New Testament to describe the execution of Jesus and those words translated to English mean (upright pale or stake)
The early Christen Church imported the cross Symbol from neighbouring Pagan Religions and their use of the cross in worship led them to claim Jesus had in fact died on one.

 

[trainedobserver]

The early Christen Church imported the cross Symbol from neighbouring Pagan Religions and their use of the cross in worship led them to claim Jesus had in fact died on one.

Now to steer us back to the subject of the thread ...And that is an interesting thing isn't it? The fact that so much of Christian tradition can be traced to Pagan roots. In fact the "Christian religion" that is supposed to be the kryptonite to the "demonic invasion" can shown to be a contrivance. The whole business UFOs=Demons business smacks of mind-games and religious hysteria.

I found it extremely interesting that part of the story is that the C.E. was unable to locate an agency or program within the government that would explain the "black helicopter" phenomena, therefore they concluded it was also "demonic activity." Given that one episode of the "UFO Hunters" shows them being buzzed by unmarked black helicopters of the type known to be flown by U.S. forces tells me something else.

If some sort of inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial activity is actually occurring and our government has thrown up its hands and concluded that the threat is supernatural and can only be abated by religious "belief" then we're screwed. That is exactly what some enemy like that would want us to do.

 

[tyder001]

Acutally, if we have an "enemy" that can traverse the stars then it doesn't really matter if ya call it pshycal or spiritual or interdimentional we are still screwed. Of course I have't seen the "proof" as of yet. I will say that (and no I don't think their are demons riding around in spaceships.) But, a spritual definiction is just as valid as a nuts and bolts answer at this point. Matter of fact I wonder if maybe. Just maybe at some un-discovered quantum level or advanced race that the whole physics vs spirituality question might be mute. It is possible that the mystics of every religon have something right. It's all one. Just something to throw into the mix. Especially since I'm not a big believer in nuts and bolts "spacemen/women" from Venus or wherever.

 

[trainedobserver]

I think this video is extremely interesting in light of Nick Redfern's new book.



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...Of course I have't seen the "proof" as of yet. ...

I don't think the real "concern" here is that "demons" from the Bible are out to eat our souls. Not at all. The real concern here is "the story" behind the "UFO is demons" meme within the U.S. government. So much of the story relies on "someone" believing that Crowley, Parsons, and Hubbard were something other than disturbed, immoral, and fantasy-prone individuals who held fringe beliefs that had no basis in reality. Either someone in a position of influence believes it or they want other people to believe it for some reason. That is revolting and disconcerting to say the least.

 

[Kieran]

Now to steer us back to the subject of the thread ...And that is an interesting thing isn't it? The fact that so much of Christian tradition can be traced to Pagan roots. In fact the "Christian religion" that is supposed to be the kryptonite to the "demonic invasion" can shown to be a contrivance. The whole business UFOs=Demons business smacks of mind-games and religious hysteria.

I found it extremely interesting that part of the story is that the C.E. was unable to locate an agency or program within the government that would explain the "black helicopter" phenomena, therefore they concluded it was also "demonic activity." Given that one episode of the "UFO Hunters" shows them being buzzed by unmarked black helicopters of the type known to be flown by U.S. forces tells me something else.

If some sort of inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial activity is actually occurring and our government has thrown up its hands and concluded that the threat is supernatural and can only be abated by religious "belief" then we're screwed. That is exactly what some enemy like that would want us to do.

The Christen Trinity doctrine, the Father the Son and the Holy spirit, well the true roots of the trinity are both Occultic and Pagan not Christen. Just another remainder, the Christen Tradition can be traced to Pagan Roots. Although it is uncertain what the symbol meant to the Celtic peoples of Central Europe. Scholars of Keltic- Germanic history have claimed the trinity represented the past the present and future, or it was used to represent the triad of the heart soul and mind.

While I take issue with the notion that UFO'S are demonic. The Christen viewpoint is interesting. I take a keen interest in my own cultures tales and myths and what is so fascinating for me, on closer inspection of those myths I found that the Fairies (the Tuatha de Dannann) of Ireland are spoken and written about in the Bible and other texts that matter as the Tribe of Dan. Who were said to be cast out as Fallen Angels. So why is it the Tribe of Dan are mentioned in Irish history even if it is legend and myth as some of you might believe?

What are Fallen Angels? Christens view them as Angels cast out by Satan. I will give the Irish viewpoint be it wrong or right. They landed on top of a mountain the First of May (the year is uncertain) and beat and defeated a group called the Fir-Bolg. The Tuatha de Dannann were a race with magical powers. They were handsome and learned and were supreme masters of wizardry. The occupied Ireland for thousands of years and were later defeated by the Gaels (the Milesians)

The Tuatha de Dannann were later cast as demons or as fallen Angels by Scholars. This just a short summary of the story there is actual descriptions of battles between the "Tuatha de Dannann" and the "Fir Bolg" and another race called the "Fomorians" some of the battle descriptions, sword and shields were used, the use of magic and technology. The Tuatha de Dannann with the emergence of Rome and Christianity and being defeated by the Milesians retreated underground taking their secrets and mysterious arts with them.

This was viewed as actual history until Christen's got their hands on it and twisted it. I honestly do believe the Tuatha De Dannann existed in some shape or form. I can not say for certain they were non human, but if the stories are accurate the Tuatha had technology that should not have existed for the time. One of the leaders of the Tuatha "Balor" lost an arm in Battle and the story says his arm was replaced with a new arm made of silver. I have talked about this stuff till ad-nausuem, but I think it is important to bring it up in the context of what we discussing now.

 

[Trajanus]

The whole business UFOs=Demons business smacks of mind-games and religious hysteria.

Of course.

If some sort of inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial activity is actually occurring and our government has thrown up its hands and concluded that the threat is supernatural and can only be abated by religious "belief" then we're screwed. That is exactly what some enemy like that would want us to do.

Lol yes, but I just don't believe the government is that deluded or clueless. There's plenty of evidence for a physical-technical phenomenon.

 

[trainedobserver]

Of course.
Lol yes, but I just don't believe the government is that deluded or clueless. There's plenty of evidence for a physical-technical phenomenon.

Well as Jeff Sharlet's book, The Family, brings to light, governments are made of individuals, individuals are motivated by their beliefs, and Christian fundamentalism is alive and well in Washington D.C.

 

[Trajanus]

Well as Jeff Sharlet's book, The Family, brings to light, governments are made of individuals, individuals are motivated by their beliefs, and Christian fundamentalism is alive and well in Washington D.C.

Surely not to that extent, lol. Btw as for holy joe 1 dying on a stake, I'm not buying it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispute_about_Jesus'_execution_method

Note for examplethe view of Justin Martyr, before Constantine.