Food for thought...

[tyder001]

Amazing! There is all kind of stuff from Ian Stevenson to Rhine to Sheldrake to Wolf to Carter to .....on and on and on. Now you might dispute it. Ya might get miky shermer and jimmy randi to poo poo it. But, it's just lazy to act as if here is no research or no evidence at all for the paranormal. I've changed my mind. I don't give a crap who you respect cause with that kind of intelletual dishonesty it really doens't matter. I think you should run back to the jimmy randi or richie dawkins board and preach to the choir about how ya fooled those silly folks over at that paranomal show board into believing your were honestly searching for the truth. Now, I have questioned why some folks are here when they don't beleive in anything. But, I've actually learned things from Trained Observer (Still don't agree with him on some very important stuff) but he truly searches and maintains a certain amount of respect for people. Angel, will admit that even though he belives nothing paranormal that he could be wrong. Also, he's a seemingly decent fella. Capn will give ya as good as he gets but will debate the issues and even do research. But, folks who come on here and just declare it all bunk? That is just silly.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Also, don't start the yelling "link" crap. If you wanted to honestly do research then you would have already found books by people like Michael Talbot and Chris Carter and work by Fred Allen Wolf and Sir Rodger Penrose and others. Does it prove the paranormal? NO! But it does prove that honest work and experiments have been and continue to be done with some positive results.

Idiots! I'm in a room full of idiots....Uhh, honey ya might wanna look in the mirror..there may be one more idiot than you know.....(Part of a speech by John Glenn talking about a conversation he had with his wife one day.) I always liked John Glenn. Smart guy.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Amazing! There is all kind of stuff from Ian Stevenson to Rhine to Sheldrake to Wolf to Carter to .....on and on and on. Now you might dispute it. Ya might get miky shermer and jimmy randi to poo poo it. But, it's just lazy to act as if here is no research or no evidence at all for the paranormal. I've changed my mind. I don't give a crap who you respect cause with that kind of intelletual dishonesty it really doens't matter. I think you should run back to the jimmy randi or richie dawkins board and preach to the choir about how ya fooled those silly folks over at that paranomal show board into believing your were honestly searching for the truth. Now, I have questioned why some folks are here when they don't beleive in anything. But, I've actually learned things from Trained Observer (Still don't agree with him on some very important stuff) but he truly searches and maintains a certain amount of respect for people. Angel, will admit that even though he belives nothing paranormal that he could be wrong. Also, he's a seemingly decent fella. Capn will give ya as good as he gets but will debate the issues and even do research. But, folks who come on here and just declare it all bunk? That is just silly.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

Also, don't start the yelling "link" crap. If you wanted to honestly do research then you would have already found books by people like Michael Talbot and Chris Carter and work by Fred Allen Wolf and Sir Rodger Penrose and others. Does it prove the paranormal? NO! But it does prove that honest work and experiments have been and continue to be done with some positive results.

Idiots! I'm in a room full of idiots....Uhh, honey ya might wanna look in the mirror..there may be one more idiot than you know.....(Part of a speech by John Glenn talking about a conversation he had with his wife one day.) I always liked John Glenn. Smart guy.

Seemingly a decent fella???? I'd say definitely.

Which links are you talking about? The ones I posted regarding Fatima? I seriously looked in several databases for unbiased work on the topic an found nothing. I just wish someone would just grow back a limb and shut us naysayers all up. Then we could all agree on something.

 

[pixelsmith]

I used to believe in God, until I researched dozens of religions. I used to believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming until I researched it. I used to believe the official 9/11 story until I researched it. I used to believe our government cared about us until... well... look around.

I do believe there are strange craft flying around because I saw one up fairly close and chased it for several miles until a small jet chased it out of sight.

I do believe in some possibly paranormal events because I have witnessed a couple. One was an apparition that me and my family all observed several times in our basement during the day, never at night. A few years ago I had a pint glass break 3 feet behind me on a table at night while I was at work, it broke with a nearly deafening crystal-like TING but it sat there as if it was fine. When I picked it up the bottom inch or so of the base was on the table and in my hand was the rest of the glass with the bottom gone almost as if it was cut off with a glass cutter. I still have it. Nothing was near it, nothing fell on it, nothing was in it. It still gives me goose bumps when I think about it.

I do not dismiss things easily. I do a fair amount of research before I become skeptical or blow something off as BS. I have no problem accepting when I am wrong as well. Give me some evidence that god as taught to us in the bible is real and I may change my mind. Give me any proof at all that human generated CO2 is destroying the planet and I might change my mind as well.

Believe what you want, but remember, things are rarely as they seem.

 

[tyder001]

I'll take the "seemingly" off. I wasn't talking about you anyway. I was referring to folks who yell bunk all day long and do absolutely no research. You might not agree with it. It might be contrversial and even wrong (debatable) but to act as if there is absolutely no evidence for certain "paranormal" experience is a lie. Sorry, it just is. It's just that I read the evidence for evolution (that's why I do believe in evolution) I don't yell at somebody else to provide a link all day long. I "read" and have read the bible and that's why I don't get into the ya,ya mess all day long. I research on my own (mainly by reading) the history of religion and the paranormal and science and different views. I don't go to Pat Robertson to learn about Budda and I don't go to Richard Dawkins to learn about Christ and I don't waste my time and everybody else's by going over to the James Randi forum and just yelling Bunk all day long. That would be foolish. But, I was trying to "compliment" you not attack you. Now, (in my best foghorn leghorn southern colonel voice) "Listen up heah and pay attention." 8)

Dayum (still in my southern character) Pixel chimed in b4 I could post. O.K. I wasn't talking to Angel or Pixel.

 

[Kieran]

I just don't understand how obviously intelligent folks like some of the show's co-hosts can believe or pretend to believe this stuff. It's not for the money, surely. Their own amusement? Fine, but what about the people who actually give credibility to what they're saying and may even make life decisions based on it? A guy like Kieran, he seems like a likeable sort, and he's going to believe in Irish fairytales and just about anything else that floats his way, but that's no excuse for smarter people to feed his delusions for their own amusement.

Why bring me into this lol. Thanks MacDaddy. Why don't you spent less time posting, I am just one guy who wishes to explore a subject I like and has effected my life, ok I am delusional, but why don't you spent some of your valuable time with subjects that will interest you, then coming here to be all righteous with forum members and letting us know how smart you are, and we are so dumb to belief any of this stuff.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

This is exactly my original point in starting this thread. Where's the proof? I keep asking, but nobody ever has a good answer. If the paranormal is real, show me. Make it normal. Pick any one: astrology, MIB's, UFO's, ESP, ghosts, aliens, alien abductions, cattle mutilations, Roswell, God, angels, devils... you name it. Pick one and show me the proof.

This site is not here to provide proof of anything. You want proof, go out and find it yourself. If you want to discuss those topics here with civility and rationality the the Paracast is the best of its type out there. But don't ask anyone here to provide proof to you or anyone else.

I just don't understand how obviously intelligent folks like some of the show's co-hosts can believe or pretend to believe this stuff. It's not for the money, surely. Their own amusement? Fine, but what about the people who actually give credibility to what they're saying and may even make life decisions based on it? A guy like Kieran, he seems like a likeable sort, and he's going to believe in Irish fairytales and just about anything else that floats his way, but that's no excuse for smarter people to feed his delusions for their own amusement

Are you are a member of "the Brights"? Your mate James Randi is there. If you are not maybe you could mosey on over and join him in an insult throwing party. Maybe you could start a website called "the Insulters". That would probably suit your persona better.
So far you have added nothing to any discussion except insults and derision of the hosts and other forum members.

Stick to your pseudsceptic and debunker websites and forums where they no doubt love you for your biting cynicism of any talk of UFOs or the paranormal. Maybe you could join lancemoody on his Debunker Rapid Response Squad. Or maybe you already have? Maybe you are lancemoody? You certainly have the narkier side to his personality.
Anyway I watch with complete fascination as to who you put down next. For certain you will have another go at me, which i can't wait for but it's who else will next incur the wrath of Big MacDaddy.

 

[MacDaddy]

Wheeee! A hornet's nest! Are you guys afraid of the Brights? Randi? Seems like it. Anybody got any proof yet? Didn't think so...

Sort of off-topic: Anybody here believe in the validity of astrology?

---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------

Why bring me into this lol. Thanks MacDaddy. Why don't you spent less time posting, I am just one guy who wishes to explore a subject I like and has effected my life, ok I am delusional, but why don't you spent some of your valuable time with subjects that will interest you, then coming here to be all righteous with forum members and letting us know how smart you are, and we are so dumb to belief any of this stuff

You interest me, K. I wonder how old you are, why you believe the things you do, what you get out of it all. You seem like an interesting fellow to me.

---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------

Anyway I watch with complete fascination as to who you put down next. For certain you will have another go at me, which i can't wait for but it's who else will next incur the wrath of Big MacDaddy.

No wrath, 'cats, just gaping amusement!

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

I used to believe the official 9/11 story until I researched it.

Let me guess: your research turned up unassailable evidence that thousands of people participated in a conspiracy to bring down the WTC buildings, and are still keeping it a secret. Or maybe your evidence isn't quite the smoking gun kind but just scads and scads of suggestive facts which, when cobbled together in a sufficiently paranoid mind, makes the case airtight. Let's hear your proof, sir!

---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 PM ----------

But it does prove that honest work and experiments have been and continue to be done with some positive results.

What positive results? Trust me: the minute somebody nails down real evidence for ESP, clairvoyance, remote viewing, ghosts, telekinesis -- any real evidence at all -- the world will have changed and you will not have to search through obscure experimental results to find out about it. The news will be everywhere, it will be that earth-shaking.

Wait... I'm gettting an email alert... Nope, false alarm. ESP is still crap.

---------- Post added at 10:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 PM ----------

This site is not here to provide proof of anything. You want proof, go out and find it yourself.

Obviously not. Not even one response. It's like there's a conspiracy to keep the truth hidden from me. Why won't any of you believers let me in on the smoking gun evidence you have? And by the way, if it's not smoking gun evidence, it's not sufficient to cause rational people to turn their backs on the way the world really works in favor of some paranormal fantasy trip. It's just not. Now get working on that proof, campers!

 

[crabtown]

Mac, old buddy, you're kind of foaming at the mouth, but I think this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

By the way, I doubt that anybody here will admit to believing in astrology. What's your point on that?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Wheeee! A hornet's nest! Are you guys afraid of the Brights? Randi? Seems like it. Anybody got any proof yet? Didn't think so...

Sort of off-topic: Anybody here believe in the validity of astrology?

---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------

No wrath, 'cats, just gaping amusement!

So that's why you're here? Amusement? You can add nothing to the conversation so you resort to flippancy and snide remarks? How about presenting a topic for discussion or something useful to add, is that too much to ask?
As for the "brights", nothing to fear there. They are nothing more than a fringe element website/organisation espousing their views. They have about as much credibility as any other fringe element org. They are entitled to their views as is anyone else, even you.
Astrology? Some here may find validity in it, probably a greater portion will not. But who cares. each to their own.
If you want proof , i say to you also, go out and find it yourself. You obviously won't find it on these forums. You seem to just want an argument.

 

[Cockapoo]

May I be so bold to ask why it's OK to make fun of my religion and beliefs without ever really answering my question about eye witness proof? 20 to 60 thousand people saw a thing and you dismiss it as a faith issue. McDaddy you believe in nothing so my condolenses. But I don't understand the attitude of others here proclaim to be broad minded. Have you done your research on Fatima, Lourdes, other miracles? Then don't be so quick to sneer. And astrology is bunk.

 

[SurferMike]

You can add nothing to the conversation so you resort to flippancy and snide remarks? How about presenting a topic for discussion or something useful to add, is that too much to ask?

In fact, the only time this conversation gets interesting is when Mac and his Bright cronies stir up the pot a little. He is a sarcastic sumbitch, though.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[trainedobserver]

20 to 60 thousand people saw a thing and you dismiss it as a faith issue.

They may have seen something. What it actually was is up for interpretation I guess.

 

[SurferMike]

Oh, and thumbs down on astrology. No possible mechanism to explain that kind of thing. Still hold out some small but dwindling hope for Bigfoot though.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Obviously not. Not even one response. It's like there's a conspiracy to keep the truth hidden from me. Why won't any of you believers let me in on the smoking gun evidence you have? And by the way, if it's not smoking gun evidence, it's not sufficient to cause rational people to turn their backs on the way the world really works in favor of some paranormal fantasy trip. It's just not. Now get working on that proof, campers!

What? You must be delusional. In fact i think you are delusional!
If those here had any answers, then they would not be her . Poor you if you think that a discussion forum is going to provide you with any answers. You don't "believe" any of the subjects we discuss here are real or true or have any validity to them, so why are you here? I think you have been asked that several times before and failed to answer so is it too much to ask you for a response? Probably.

You obviously favour making provocative pronouncements instead of writing anything of any value.

Feeble attempts at humour and insults aside, how about presenting something for us "true believers" here on the forums to dissect and discuss. Maybe a case that you have studied. Can you do that? Or is that outside your area of expertise?

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:19 PM ----------

In fact, the only time this conversation gets interesting is when Mac and his Bright cronies stir up the pot a little. He is a sarcastic sumbitch, though.

Just my humble opinion.

Correct.
"Bright?" He's more like a "dull".

Oh, and thumbs down on astrology. No possible mechanism to explain that kind of thing. Still hold out some small but dwindling hope for Bigfoot though.

Astrology? Do some study Bigfoot...and you think astrology is bunk!!!

 

[MacDaddy]

You don't "believe" any of the subjects we discuss here are real or true or have any validity to them, so why are you here? I think you have been asked that several times before and failed to answer so is it too much to ask you for a response? Probably.

I come here for the same reason you do: it amuses me. Human nature is fascinating, don't you think? Why do people believe what they believe? I mean, we're all given the same raw material to work with and some of us are rational and some of us are stockpiling survival provisions and drinking alkaline water. Off topic: that Al Kaline was a great ball-player, wasn't he?

---------- Post added at 11:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 PM ----------

and you think astrology is bunk!

Just for the record, is this your vote for astrology?

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

Feeble attempts at humour and insults aside, how about presenting something for us "true believers" here on the forums to dissect and discuss

OK. What standard of proof do the denizens of this forum require to believe something truly paranormal? Please dissect the question and report back to me. I'm really interested.

---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

If those here had any answers, then they would not be her .

But many here seem to have reached a conclusion that all sorts of paranormal things are real. When I ask them to explain what evidence prompts this conclusion, the answers always boil down to anecdotes. Anecdotes are evidence enough if you're recommending a restaurant, but not if you expect me to alter my perception of reality. See the difference? If you want to alter my worldview, as many of you have apparently had your worldview altered, you need to show me something real. So, I guess the only answer I'm looking for is: what is it that makes you believe. Surely this is not too much to ask?

---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

Oh, and by the way, I'm not a Bright. Gotta like that Randi though, he makes a lot of sense and is truly qualified to spot tricksters. And, he's caught some tricksters, too. Real ones. Michael Shermer seems to be pretty level-headed too.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I come here for the same reason you do: it amuses me. Human nature is fascinating, don't you think? Why do people believe what they believe? I mean, we're all given the same raw material to work with and some of us are rational and some of us are stockpiling survival provisions and drinking alkaline water. Off topic: that Al Kaline was a great ball-player, wasn't he?

So you take to insulting them? Is that your way of coping with things you don't agree with.

I think that Astrology has some merit to it.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

But many here seem to have reached a conclusion that all sorts of paranormal things are real. When I ask them to explain what evidence prompts this conclusion, the answers always boil down to anecdotes. Anecdotes are evidence enough if you're recommending a restaurant, but not if you expect me to alter my perception of reality. See the difference? If you want to alter my worldview, as many of you have apparently had your worldview altered, you need to show me something real. So, I guess the only answer I'm looking for is: what is it that makes you believe. Surely this is not too much to ask?

---------- Post added at 11:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

Oh, and by the way, I'm not a Bright. Gotta like that Randi though, he makes a lot of sense and is truly qualified to spot tricksters. And, he's caught some tricksters, too. Real ones. Michael Shermer seems to be pretty level-headed too.

So what? Just because you don't agree makes them wrong, does it. Or that you can pour scorn on them? i think that the "denizens" of the forums are sceptical but are willing to change their mind if the evidence leads them that way . Others have had experiences that cannot be easily explained away.

So where is your presentation, the cases you've studied and debunked? Still no action there. Probably won't be either. Typical.

No one is trying to change your mind or to alter your perception of reality or is anyone trying to change your world view. You seem to enjoy making sweeping statements and assumptions. These things seem to have sprung up in your mind for some silly reason. I don't think the majority here believes or accepts that the reality of any paranormal subject is a given. Most people here don't deal in absolutes, unlike you.

No surprise that you like Randi and Shermer.

 

[Sloppy Joe]

But in the end, the interviewers themselves are of the utmost importance here. It's one thing to be interrogated by the police (as in the case of the Fátima witnesses and I must add that the authorities weren't at all interested in validating the occurence, but actively invested in discrediting the whole subject) and by followers of a religious faith. Basically what do police reports have in common with religious/theological texts? There may be truth and sincere testimonies behind them, but the way they are written and the purposes they serve are quite different. Please mind my words: I'll never deny or validate the "miraculous" events mentioned in the New Testament simply because I don't think we possess enough data to do so. Many feel that debating biblical subjects (or religious beliefs in general, for that matter) is fruitless because the believer will always believe and the non-believer will always disbelieve. I don't stand in any of those extremes, preferring to place myself in the middle as a curious and doubtful observer and investigator. Accepting or denying something are always things that one shouldn't do lightly, specially when dealing with such sensible themes.

Your response would be thoroughly answered if you were to read into "oral tradition". The testimony in the New Testament isn't merely constructed by people who wished something were true. But by people who were honestly investigating the truth. Oral tradition is the key that makes a moot point out of "well, what if a bunch of people were just lying?" or "what if a bunch of people just heard what they wanted to hear?" and other similar questions. I really encourage you to read about oral tradition. There are a number of archeologists who, even though they themselves don't necessarily believe Jesus Christ was God, can't overlook oral tradition and can't overlook the evidence of Jesus' life that's presented in the original manuscripts.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

Your response would be thoroughly answered if you were to read into "oral tradition". The testimony in the New Testament isn't merely constructed by people who wished something were true. But by people who were honestly investigating the truth.

The difference here will always be about faith. Oral tradition is an important channel of transmission of information throughout the ages and cultures (I actually mentioned that on previous post in other threads on this subject) but, reliable as it might be, it isn't a verbatim record of what was said or done. Besides, the reliability of a medium does not vouch for the factuality or accuracy of the message. Reading the New Testament you don't find an detached approach to the matters - there's a literary passion to the texts that infuses them with life and, in the end, contributed directly to its following by what would become Christianity. Besides, the fact that real people, places and occurences are mentioned throughout the bible doesn't automatically mean that everything there is true: the bible will never be an unbiased collection of accounts. In the end where does all this leave us? The faithful will see the book as a source of spiritual and religious illumination, a reference point to their belief in Christ. The agnostic (like me), will see an interesting book that opens a fascinating window into the minds, culture, beliefs and hopes of two of the biggest religions in history.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I just don't understand how obviously intelligent folks like some of the show's co-hosts can believe or pretend to believe this stuff. It's not for the money, surely. Their own amusement?

You obviously haven't been paying attention and haven't read my books: I don't BELIEVE in any of these subjects--including my own "trickster" theory. You will never hear me say "I believe" in anything when it comes to the paranormal. I am at heart a jaded cynic -- I just hide it well. I try to be open-minded, but healthily skeptical; not factor any explanations in or out and look at what little evidence we have to make informed hypotheses based on my own investigation and research. And I really do, do the work, i.e., I read the books, get out in the field and keep myself as up-to-speed as best I can. I'd really appreciate it if more folks out there would be motivated enough to do the same, but most people couldn't be bothered....

 

[Angel of Ioren]

You obviously haven't been paying attention and haven't read my books: I don't BELIEVE in any of these subjects--including my own "trickster" theory. You will never hear me say "I believe" in anything when it comes to the paranormal. I am at heart a jaded cynic -- I just hide it well. I try to be open-minded, but healthily skeptical; not factor any explanations in or out and look at what little evidence we have to make informed hypotheses based on my own investigation and research. And I really do, do the work, i.e., I read the books, get out in the field and keep myself as up-to-speed as best I can. I'd really appreciate it if more folks out there would be motivated enough to do the same, but most people couldn't be bothered....

To be fair, I don't think it's that people couldn't be bothered; it has more to do with a question of time. Depending on your current situation, you will have less time to devote to certain things. I love to write songs, and when I was single I recorded a whole album, by my self in the little studio i had in my parents' basement. I programmed the drums and recorded the bass, guitar, keyboard, and vocal parts. It was a lot of fun. I continued with my music, I started an art history degree, and I got married. I had less time to devote to certain things. Then I bought a house, and that's a lot more work than most think. And then the biggie, I became a father.

As much as I would like to go out and "investigate" paranormal claims to see if there's something to them, I have other priorities. Is this an excuse? Maybe. I come to this forum to discuss the topic because I find it fun.

We leave it up to people that have time to do it to write the books and do the work. I hope that's fair.