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Where did all the skeptics go?

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Ya know I'm not skeptic or a debunker (Lord knows some on here more than likely would call me a space cadet and others a heretic) :) But, I just don't buy the spacemen/women visiting from another planet. I'll have to continue to be the Doubting Thomas until I can actually run my hands along the sides of the saucer and shake hands with the aliens. :)

At which point some people are going to suggest that what you touched and shook hands with is not proof that aliens are real, but that demons are.
 
Pleae dont try and tell me what to post, its a valid point

Author and paranormal researcher, Nicholas Redfern joins us for a look into bizarre connections between a shadowy government military-intelligence group called the "Collins Elite", and the ET/UFO phenomena which they believe to be directly "demonic".

Using direct information supplied to Nick by former MUFON investigator and Anglican priest, Ray Boueche; in what can best be termed a vast right-wing religious conspiracy, the group upholds the US is threatened by an imminent Satanic threat, and the country should be locked down under martial law and the citizenry placed under strict Old Testament Law to thwart the "soul snatching" plans of the demonic horde.

Under the scenario outlined by the group, the American Constitution would be revoked and the nation placed under a type of Biblical Old Testament theocracy/surveillance state with closed borders and severe penalties for interacting with the "demons".

That mindset is another compelling reason that might explain the elusiveness of the phenomena, if that scenario played out en masse on a planetary scale , contact would quite literally set us back thousands of years in social and mental progress. Quite literally putting us back in the dark ages of superstition and persecution.
People like me who subscribe to an ET explanation would be hunted down as heretics and put to death as per old testament laws.
Its a mindset i make no apology for debunking, and rejecting as vigorously as i can
 
I in no way am telling anybody what to post. I simply get tired of the same old junk. But, (before ya say it) I don't have to read it or agree with it. So, I'll let it go..unless I don't. :)
 
I in no way am telling anybody what to post. I simply get tired of the same old junk. But, (before ya say it) I don't have to read it or agree with it. So, I'll let it go..unless I don't. :)

So its do as i say, not as i do ?
On the one hand you tell me to let it go, while reserving the right for yourself to let it go, or not as it suits you.
 
Don't hold your breathe--I've noticed that some debunkers around here prefer to take the easy road--attacking people is far easier than actually knuckling down and doing the heavy lifting, i.e., reading, researching, conducting actual investigations and communicating their findings to others. It is SO much easier to stoop to smarmy asides and holier-than-thou conveniently-selective criticisms while attacking those who actually get out and do the work.

Well alrighty then. I'll be back in a couple of months. I'm going to go grab a pickax and a shovel and dig 3 mile deep holes all over the Southwest to prove there are no tunnels, bases, levitating trains. And if that doesn't impress you, I'll swim out to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, hold my nose and dive down to the bottom and dig up no tunnels or bases down there either.;)

Chris, I do not agree with you most of the time but you are an improvement to the show. Regards
 
So its do as i say, not as i do ?
On the one hand you tell me to let it go, while reserving the right for yourself to let it go, or not as it suits you.


ROFLMAO! I have absolutely No Power to tell you to let it go or not. :) It was just a figure of speech. I do find your constant attacks on a persons religion to be boring and silly. But, I also understand you have your own his-story and I can at least let it go on that level. I'm not gonna get into a flame war with you. I found some of your post to be very intelligent but also some to be self serving garbage such as the anti religion or the spaceman spiff rants. I don't really honestly care. I just come here to have fun and once in awhile have an intelligent discussion. But, No I don't "tell you anything" We all have the power to "reserve" for OURSELVES the right to post or let it go as it suits US. Now, I"ll give ya the last word cause I smell a little catfight coming and I don't think I wanna participate.
Peace, or not as it suits YOU. :)
 
ROFLMAO! I have absolutely No Power to tell you to let it go or not. :) It was just a figure of speech. I do find your constant attacks on a persons religion to be boring and silly. But, I also understand you have your own his-story and I can at least let it go on that level. I'm not gonna get into a flame war with you. I found some of your post to be very intelligent but also some to be self serving garbage such as the anti religion or the spaceman spiff rants. I don't really honestly care. I just come here to have fun and once in awhile have an intelligent discussion. But, No I don't "tell you anything" We all have the power to "reserve" for OURSELVES the right to post or let it go as it suits US. Now, I"ll give ya the last word cause I smell a little catfight coming and I don't think I wanna participate.
Peace, or not as it suits YOU. :)

Well done Tyder.

We really should try to keep personal attacks out of this. I agree that Tyder saying "Dude, let it go," was a figure of speech and his way to prevent a silly flame war. There's no need to drag things on. Everyone is guilty of this at one time or another (I know I've been involved in a few silly arguments) but when we can prevent it (as Tyder has tried here) we should.

Thanks.
 
Ya know I'm not skeptic or a debunker (Lord knows some on here more than likely would call me a space cadet and others a heretic) :) But, I just don't buy the spacemen/women visiting from another planet. I'll have to continue to be the Doubting Thomas until I can actually run my hands along the sides of the saucer and shake hands with the aliens. :)
:cool:
Perhaps you will be shaking tentacles or some other appendage. (Or riding a flying bicycle... hehehe.) But being a "space cadet" sounds like fun!!! Can I join??

For my part I tend not to be able to think of the skeptic / believer continuum without being reminded of three simple words: We Don't Know. Think of the technological and scientific advances that have been made in the last twenty years, and those from the twenty before that (when we imagined first that Mars would be inhabited by civilisations -- and then that the chance of finding even organic molecules elsewhere in our solar system was remote -- and finally realising that life is more hardy than we had ever suspected, that organic materials and pre-organic materials are practically everywhere, and that there are oceans on Europa and surface liquids on Titan.)

Would be absolutely fantastic to find time (and Latinum) to research everything that arouses our interest. I would start reading mythology books again, dig up everything I could find on biology, astronomy, and anthropology, subscribe to every movie journal on the shelves, and teach myself Ancient Greek, Russian, Welsh, Maori and Klingonese... :D But, we can only go to a fraction of those places where interest takes us. For that reason, I am afraid that there are few options but to form our views with a fraction of available knowledge, sometimes.

However, that said, I think there are a lot of "open skeptics" out there -- I have known a lot of them, and I think that the simple mantra of We Don't Know... That more than anything has convinced me to be one of them. Besides which, there is more of value in this world than those things which are literally "real".
 
Well done Tyder.

We really should try to keep personal attacks out of this. I agree that Tyder saying "Dude, let it go," was a figure of speech and his way to prevent a silly flame war. There's no need to drag things on. Everyone is guilty of this at one time or another (I know I've been involved in a few silly arguments) but when we can prevent it (as Tyder has tried here) we should.

Thanks.

And i respectfully disagree, "dude let it go" is an instruction, its not an opinion or a counter argument, its a directive.
Its no surprise he finds my anti religious comments boring, since hes a member of the same club those comments are aimed at. But there are just as many people who have applauded my sentiments.
I am just as bored with comments like "dolt" and "mork/martian wannabe" that are aimed at any post that touts the ETH as a valid hypothesis, funny how he doesnt find those repeated comments "boring", but my counter arguments/comments are.
From my pov personal attacks are not possible in an online forum, my definition of a personal attack is when i kick some idiots arse in a parking lot.
Posting an opinion in an online forum doesnt fit my definition of personal attack

As a Mod youve made no mention of the saints comments which fit your definition of "personal" attack, so why start now ?
 
As a Mod youve made no mention of the saints comments which fit your definition of "personal" attack, so why start now ?

Are you talking about the thread where I suggested you BOTH stop arguing about something that has nothing to do with the topic? Or are you talking about something else?

Just to refresh your memory I said:
"Mike, I agree with you about religion, and it does have something to do with the study of the topic. I just wanted to reign in the back and forth replies you guys were having because they were completely leaving the point of the post.
Let's just say that one's religion can possibly have an effect on one's interpretation of the phenomenon - That's fair, right?"

So, I think Tyder was just trying to avoid starting a pointless argument about religion. That's it.
 
All i said was even if you touch a UFO or shake hands with an alien, there are some (Redferns collins elite for example) who will say that only proves demons are real.

How does that in any way compare with hypenating Trajanus's name to Traj-Anus or calling those who subscribe to the ETH as mork wannabe's and Dolts.

I have posted my opinion that religion is bogus, an opinion is not a personal attack.

your post is also contradictory

"arguing about something that has nothing to do with the topic"

vs

"I agree with you about religion, and it does have something to do with the study of the topic"

The difference is while i am happy to argue/debate the merits of the data in regards to religion and UFO's i'm not the one who's resorted to insults and name calling here.
If you have a problem with the tone of the debate i suggest thats where you start.
 
The problem both myself and probably many people on this forum have, is the plain and simple fact that not every U.F.O. or phenomena in this context can easily be explained away as anything to do with E.T., because there isn't one single solitary bit of evidence, other than eyewitness reports and some verified radar which states it was there; that the object(s) are either extraterrestrial or even intelligent in origin.

1. Classification of the various U.F.O. sightings is important. We see something flying around which contradicts the very known science we possess; well then this does indeed have a better chance of being extra-terrestrial.....

But it also has a chance to be covert govt, demonic, and many other "reasoning's" based on the U.F.O.'s movement, etc. Without having one in our possession, without having the driver come down and give us the heads up....without the very knowledge of what moves the craft or even if it was a craft in the first place....

Why?

Because a U.F.O. until identified is just that....and Unidentified Flying Object, one which isn't verifiable to our satisfaction and most importantly, "science's satisfaction" as of yet.

2. A Supposed "Crashed" U.F.O. would be the smoking gun. It would have within the evidence in material, perhaps alien bodies, etc.

This would still prove nothing more than it wasn't "current" human.....Nor would it prove that it is extra-terrestrial, Demonic, or a genetic manipulation of the human genome 10000 years in the future. An off shoot of us which found the means to come back in time.

Why?

Because the creatures would be dead, the material they used would obviously be advanced, but this doesn't tell us anything except....

Perhaps the propulsion system could tell us....

Nope.

Because the propulsion might be so advanced, we don't know if it's based on warping space, dimension jumping, etc.

3. Lastly, we have the U.F.O. which drops down on the lawn of the President of The United States. He gets out of his saucer, shakes hands with The President and announces his world is 3 stars over "that way"....and points west.

At this point I would say the skeptics, including myself, would have to make a serious decision here. I would tend to "lean" toward it being a Demonic illusion as my Word speaks of the coming of Wolfs in Sheep's clothing, but with time and perhaps a trip there, I would undoubtedly acquiesce to the fact that they are real, no matter what the reason behind them is.

And the last part is my point of replying here.

You cannot just "assume" some-thing is something because it fits nice and snug in your reasoning or even faith. "The proof is out there" as we all know the ole' adage from the X Files. Neither the proponents of E.T. or I have the right to guarantee anyone that we "know" for sure it's E.T. or a Demon.....or anything but....

An Unidentified Flying Object.

In thousands of years we haven't been able to get to an answer. The all illusive craft have been up there, and within there.....yet not one has been captured, found crashed, etc. There are so many in the world that wish this would be the case, but like others here on this forum, not every example of what is happening can even fit in the "E.T." proponent agenda, nor the dimensional agenda, so leave off the stereotyping, keep a more diversified investigatory skill, and state they can be a varied type of happening instead.

Therefore in conclusion to this, I will keep an open mind and pray what I believe it is as Demonic as I believe it to be. Please notice how the word "open" works well with a context of "faith" in this sentence.

Open because I don't know....and Faith because I have the right to believe it's as Demonic as those who believe it is E.T. It's as simple as that.
 
The problem both myself and probably many people on this forum have, is the plain and simple fact that not every U.F.O. or phenomena in this context can easily be explained away as anything to do with E.T., because there isn't one single solitary bit of evidence, other than eyewitness reports and some verified radar


There have been many landing traces like at socorro.

which states it was there; that the object(s) are either extraterrestrial or even intelligent in origin.

Of course it's intelligent, it's obviously not natural.

1. Classification of the various U.F.O. sightings is important. We see something flying around which contradicts the very known science we possess; well then this does indeed have a better chance of being extra-terrestrial.....But it also has a chance to be covert govt, demonic, and many other "reasoning's" based on the U.F.O.'s movement, etc.

Generally it couldn't be covert government, it's been around for centuries, and if it were covert in '47 by now it should've come into open use. As for "demons" they're obviously advanced and one doesn't get that way by being inherently destructive.


2. A Supposed "Crashed" U.F.O. would be the smoking gun. It would have within the evidence in material, perhaps alien bodies, etc.

This would still prove nothing more than it wasn't "current" human.....Nor would it prove that it is extra-terrestrial, Demonic, or a genetic manipulation of the human genome 10000 years in the future. An off shoot of us which found the means to come back in time.

In theory there are other possibilities but you'd have to invoke some highly implausible things like time travel. One should first show how it's theoretically possible before considering it. We know space travel is possible. DNA studies should reveal strong affinities between the hypothetical "time traveler" and present humans just like we're over 90% genetically similar to chimps, even though they weren't our direct ancestors. Or, studies could show they are from a different evolving system altogether.

Because the creatures would be dead, the material they used would obviously be advanced, but this doesn't tell us anything..

Depending on what was found, there could be evidence of micrometeorite hits or radiation incurred from various space sources. Maybe a star map inside. :)


3. Lastly, we have the U.F.O. which drops down on the lawn of the President of The United States. He gets out of his saucer, shakes hands with The President and announces his world is 3 stars over "that way"....and points west.

And the last part is my point of replying here.

You cannot just "assume" some-thing is something because it fits nice and snug in your reasoning or even faith. "The proof is out there" as we all know the ole' adage from the X Files. Neither the proponents of E.T. or I have the right to guarantee anyone that we "know" for sure it's E.T. or a Demon.....or anything but....

An Unidentified Flying Object.

One thing is for sure: the phenomenon wants us to believe it is ET. Many contactee reports, the Hill's star map, indicates this is what they want to get across.

In thousands of years we haven't been able to get to an answer. The all illusive craft have been up there, and within there.....yet not one has been captured, found crashed, etc.

Your opinion. :)
 
There have been many landing traces like at socorro.

Landing traces....Like what? A U.F.O.? A govt. controlled test? A bunch of kids out on a midnight prank? Again, this hardly represents any physical evidence...I can give you that most probably something landed there if traces of "landing" have been found, but in no way does this prove the existence of an extra-terrestrial being, nor does it prove that the craft was from space, or anywhere for that matter.

Of course it's intelligent, it's obviously not natural.
So that anyone reading this understands the context of the sentence, my "full" words were the following:

The problem both myself and probably many people on this forum have, is the plain and simple fact that not every U.F.O. or phenomena in this context can easily be explained away as anything to do with E.T., because there isn't one single solitary bit of evidence, other than eyewitness reports and some verified radar which states it was there; that the object(s) are either extraterrestrial or even intelligent in origin.

It most definitely could be a "natural" phenomenon which has been shown on radar to be everything from weather balloons to a gaggle of geese. These examples can in no way be construed as intelligent, so my original point here stays the same and is in no way corrected.

Generally it couldn't be covert government, it's been around for centuries, and if it were covert in '47 by now it should've come into open use. As for "demons" they're obviously advanced and one doesn't get that way by being inherently destructive.

I would love to see where you or anyone has the proof that it's the same craft we have seen throughout the "centuries"...Knowing full well that you nor anyone can, it most definitely could be covert government or any of the examples I stated in my thread.

Also, considering that "Lucifer" was the Lord's favorite angel, and his fall signified the beginning of the Devil's reign on this earth, his intelligence and wisdom is infinite. His destructive capacity is the same, and therefore my original statement stands.

In theory there are other possibilities but you'd have to invoke some highly implausible things like time travel. One should first show how it's theoretically possible before considering it. We know space travel is possible. DNA studies should reveal strong affinities between the hypothetical "time traveler" and present humans just like we're over 90% genetically similar to chimps, even though they weren't our direct ancestors. Or, studies could show they are from a different evolving system altogether.

They can show this and yet they could be a thousand different reasons for existing as well. The original point of this thread was to show that they don't have to necessarily be classified as "extra-terrestrial" and for this I stand on my original reply to this subject.

Depending on what was found, there could be evidence of micrometeorite hits or radiation incurred from various space sources. Maybe a star map inside. :)

True and that would be very wild....But unfortunately none of it has ever happened yet and we still have no idea what the phenomenon is. To classify it as E.T. without knowing all the facts and having evidence to show that it is, isn't going to do the Science community any justice. It's the same as criticizing me for stating it's Demonic in origin. I have no right to classify this as the definitive explanation, any more than the limited data gives anyone the right to call it E.T.

One thing is for sure: the phenomenon wants us to believe it is ET. Many contactee reports, the Hill's star map, indicates this is what they want to get across.

You state this as "the phenomenon" as if you give it a life of its own. You conclude that reports and someone's map indicates that this is what it is....but where are the off-worlder's to clarify it for us? Where are they in the thousands of years we have been waiting for them? I want to believe that the hills and waterways down here are made of Chocolate, but unfortunately when I dig my hands down into the dirt to get myself a big taste, the mud gets in the way....

Your opinion. :)

Yep....And that of the majority of terrestrials who inhabit this earth. I'm in good company with that one because most people here are tired of the no shows as well.
 
Landing traces....Like what? A U.F.O.? A govt. controlled test? A bunch of kids out on a midnight prank? Again, this hardly represents any physical evidence...I can give you that most probably something landed there if traces of "landing" have been found, but in no way does this prove the existence of an extra-terrestrial being, nor does it prove that the craft was from space, or anywhere for that matter.

Many landing traces have been associated with landings of UFOs, or flying craft unlike anything familiar.



The problem both myself and probably many people on this forum have, is the plain and simple fact that not every U.F.O. or phenomena in this context can easily be explained away as anything to do with E.T., because there isn't one single solitary bit of evidence, other than eyewitness reports and some verified radar which states it was there; that the object(s) are either extraterrestrial or even intelligent in origin.

It most definitely could be a "natural" phenomenon which has been shown on radar to be everything from weather balloons to a gaggle of geese. These examples can in no way be construed as intelligent, so my original point here stays the same and is in no way corrected.

Among other things, there have been radar sightings of fast walkers that enter the atmosphere from above and leave the same way.



.. it most definitely could be covert government...

Not too many government people look like grays. :)

Also, considering that "Lucifer" was the Lord's favorite angel, and his fall signified the beginning of the Devil's reign on this earth, his intelligence and wisdom is infinite. His destructive capacity is the same, and therefore my original statement stands.

"Lucifer"--not a scientific concept, it seems...:)



They can show this and yet they could be a thousand different reasons for existing as well. The original point of this thread was to show that they don't have to necessarily be classified as "extra-terrestrial" and for this I stand on my original reply to this subject.

But it is possible to prove ET origins. They can even determine if a meteorite is from a specific place like Mars.



True and that would be very wild....But unfortunately none of it has ever happened yet and we still have no idea what the phenomenon is. To classify it as E.T. without knowing all the facts and having evidence to show that it is,

Oh there's plenty of evidence, albeit not conclusive, as far as laymen know.

isn't going to do the Science community any justice. It's the same as criticizing me for stating it's Demonic in origin. I have no right to classify this as the definitive explanation, any more than the limited data gives anyone the right to call it E.T.

Still, you can't compare the extent of evidence for ET with that for "demons" which aren't even a scientifically valid concept. There have been a myriad of sightings of strange flying craft, often with unusual beings. Countless sightings describe something technical, yet not of this earth in the sense of being far beyond our capabilities. Laymen may not have proof of ET but that's the overwhelming general impression.



You state this as "the phenomenon" as if you give it a life of its own. You conclude that reports and someone's map indicates that this is what it is....but where are the off-worlder's to clarify it for us? Where are they in the thousands of years we have been waiting for them?

Patience, patience. :) The phenomenon has been intensified and widely known for over 6 decades. That may seem a long time--more than enough for many of us, myself included at times--to become exasperated for lack of any definitive resolution. Two points, though: First, the ETH shouldn't be singled out; "demons" haven't openly shown themselves either nor "time travelers." Second, intensification of the phenomenon relatively recently suggests the denoument of this whole thing is not far off, in terms of historical time. Not long ago, I encountered a book, Revealed the Greatest UFO Secrets. It's just a POD book--no doubt in part because it's way too controversial for any trade publisher to touch. I was intrigued, though, by the way it spelled out exactly what requisite conditions must be met for disclosure and the circumstances under which it'll supposedly happen. From what I know of your orientation, you'd absolutely hate it, but it does seriously address the issue of when this interminable wait will finally end. It claims, though, that many of those who seek disclosure now wouldn't, if only they knew what it would lead to.




Yep....And that of the majority of terrestrials who inhabit this earth....

But not the majority who have studied these things in depth.
 
"Lucifer"--not a scientific concept, it seems...

But little gray alien? Now that's science! ROFLMAO! :p

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 PM ----------

I'm sorry my attempts at humor do seem to lean toward sarcasm at times with certain posters. I don't mean for it to be offensive. I understand that Trajanus has a great amount (from the posting so far) of emotional and belife invested in the U.F.O. being actual nuts and bolts craft. I would have no real problem with that (although I don't believe it's true.) But, the disrepect for anbody else who dares challenge it and presents a more "inner" or inter dimensional angle" ( don't really believe that one either) kind of sets him up for a certain amount of sarcastic reaction. To get respect ya gotta give a little respect. As for good and evil in the world I don't want to hijack this thread so let me say this. If interested google "M. Scott Peck" and "People of the Lie" Also, there are other really good studies both pro and con that honestly debate the existence of good and evil. So, for right now demons and aliens and space bros and inter dimensional and nuts and bolts and even FRAUD and HOAX have the excact same standing as far as "Scientific Proof" goes. Ya might not like it...but there it is. :cool:
 
But little gray alien? Now that's science! ROFLMAO!

Actually the idea of ETs is perfectly acceptable scientifically.

But, the disrepect for anbody else who dares challenge it and presents a more "inner" or inter dimensional angle" ( don't really believe that one either) kind of sets him up for a certain amount of sarcastic reaction. To get respect ya gotta give a little respect.

I attack ideas not people. Another poster referred to me as "Traj-anus." When did I ever attack someone personally like that?

Also, there are other really good studies both pro and con that honestly debate the existence of good and evil. So, for right now demons and aliens and space bros and inter dimensional and nuts and bolts and even FRAUD and HOAX have the excact same standing as far as "Scientific Proof" goes.


"Proof" perhaps but not the preponderance of evidence.
 
Many landing traces have been associated with landings of UFOs, or flying craft unlike anything familiar.

Yet not one has been unequivocally stated as extraterrestrial in origin, simply because it would be impossible to do so with the lack of any physical evidence showing thus. Any and all trace elements have shown heat dispersal, changes in vegetation, but not one site has given us any insight into how or why or what originated.

Among other things, there have been radar sightings of fast walkers that enter the atmosphere from above and leave the same way.

Which prove what? Fast walkers....objects that walk fast? No. Objects which move fast in the heavens....Which show nothing in terms of their origination or from what or why they occur. Most are considered anomalous in nature, and those which have solubility are classified as "Unidentified Flying Objects" as was and continues to be my point. Notice the "Un" in "Unidentified".....it means not able to be identified as any classification other than a flying object. We have flying objects doing all sorts of strange maneuvers in the atmosphere as well. Does this mean they come just from outer space?

Not too many government people look like grays. :)

Actually it's the other way around. Not so many grays look like people, and for this reason we have such trouble proving their existence. When and if you ever get a body or have one touch down and present us with his existence, then and only then will you have a leg to stand on. Until then the entire idea is merely theory and nothing more.

"Lucifer"--not a scientific concept, it seems...:)

Nor are little gray aliens without so much as one iota of proof. Satan (The Devil), as we call him in his fallen state, has placed his calling card in many areas of this world. In fact since we use "landing zones" as a way to enlighten the reader about "evidence", how about the many stories of the Devil placing his footprints, etc, in places:

At the ruined Kirk of Lady, near Overbister on Sanday, Orkney, are the Devil's Fingermarks, incised as parallel grooves into the parapet of the kirk. In North Kingstown is a large, granite ledge known as Devil's Foot Rock. Legends going back to the colonial era tell of a squaw being chased by the devil. Some say that she fled from Boston. Her pursuer is said to have left his footprints at Devil's Foot Rock, then at Chimney Hill in South Kingstown, and finally at Block Island.
The devil's talons at Saint Pancras church. *(Which I have seen by the way...really interesting)

At Dol de Bretagne in Brittany are found the claw mark of the devil on Mont Dol as well as the footprints of St. Michael. Near Holmfirth in Yorkshire, the devil left his footprints as scorch marks on Netherton Edge. One day, the devil disguised himself as a druid in an attempt to gain favour with the old priests but was discovered in his plans and so, in anger, flew out across the hills carrying a great stone with him, which he dropped from the skies, and it landed where the Hood Hill Stone still remains. Also, in anger, he jumped down and stood on the great rock and in doing so, left his footprint impressed upon the stone. The site is at Kilburn, Northallerton, in Yorkshire. In Lancashire, the devil threw stones at Clitheroe Castle and left his footprints in Deerstones Quarry near Pendle. At Castle Bentheim in Germany, there is a curious smooth rock that the devil used as a pillow, leaving behind an imprint of his ear. In Cologne, on a heavy stone called Teufelsstein, are imprinted the hands and talons of the devil. The Lugenstein in the cathedral square at Halberstadt was carried there by the devil to destroy the cathedral. It was too heavy, and he dropped it, leaving behind an imprint of his red hot thumb.

Sir Fergus Barclay, also known as the De'il of Ardrossan, was a horseman, famous around the lands for his tremendous skill. The secret to his skill, however, was a magical bridle, which was given to Barclay by the devil, in exchange for his soul. However, the devil was tricked by Barclay into giving his soul back. Infuriated by this trickery, the devil attacked the castle in his rage and is said to have left his hoof prints on one of the rocks.

On the eastern wall of the church of Saint Pancras in the ancient monastery of Saint Augustine outside Canterbury is to be seen the imprint of the devil's talons as he was furious that his heathen temple had become a Christian place of worship.On a coping stone of the Devil's Bridge at Kirkby Lonsdale in Cumbria are the fingermarks of the devil left behind when in his fury at being tricked out of a soul.


So here you have the supposed "Devil" leaving his "Landing Zone"...which proves nothing at all, right?

But it is possible to prove ET origins. They can even determine if a meteorite is from a specific place like Mars.

They can prove that the "third" tit on a milk maiden means she's a witch weening an imp as well Trajanus. Whether they can "really" prove anything isn't the question here....they haven't and that is the point. The E.T. origins would have to be directly correlating to any and all physical proof, such as a dead body, a fossil, DNA, anything but landing zones, radar devices and the documentation of witnesses. These three variables do nothing to show unequivocal proof that an extraterrestrial is behind the craft.....an intelligent life form maybe......but where and how is still up for grabs and even then, we would be grasping at straws because we still wouldn't have the creator of the craft or any information as to it's origions, etc. Without this proof the so called evidence you have is nothing more than myth, just like my "religious" beliefs are nothing more than my own and many millions of other people's wishes, even though sightings of Jesus are said to be everywhere.....that miracles are done in his name everyday...etc.

Oh there's plenty of evidence, albeit not conclusive, as far as laymen know.

Nope. Sorry there really isn't. I have asked you many times to please provide the "plenty" of evidence you constantly allude to, but other than reported sightings, some photos and a landing spot or two, not one piece provides the guarantee or even the slightest amount of realistic disclosure as to "intelligent" extraterrestrial life.

Still, you can't compare the extent of evidence for ET with that for "demons" which aren't even a scientifically valid concept. There have been a myriad of sightings of strange flying craft, often with unusual beings. Countless sightings describe something technical, yet not of this earth in the sense of being far beyond our capabilities. Laymen may not have proof of ET but that's the overwhelming general impression.

Why can't I compare the extent of evidence for E.T. with Demons. Both have nothing by which to purport conclusive evidence for or against, both have a track record of sightings, direct physical involvement, yet neither has any conclusive physical evidence to back up the claims.

With Demons you have manifestation and pre and post aftereffects. A victim is possessed and the exorcist weeds them out.

With E.T. we have nothing but the good faith of the eyewitness to believe they ever abducted them in the first place.

With Demons we have ectoplasm, people thrown against walls, people speaking in strange and foreign tongues backwards, illicitng all sorts of historical information they couldn't be privy too, etc.

With E.T. we have nothing but the good faith of eyewitnesses as to what happened. This and people like Dr. Jacobs and his distance hypno'capades'.

Scientifically speaking, Demons might not be as easily classified in any tight little concept of dimensionality or physical domain, but the effects of their influence is directed and obvious. I cannot say the same for E.T. in this sense, as they (if real anyway) seem to stay as illusive as physically possible. Other than some metal pulled out of people and a perhaps a bad case of anal irritation, what else do you have?

Patience, patience. :) The phenomenon has been intensified and widely known for over 6 decades. That may seem a long time--more than enough for many of us, myself included at times--to become exasperated for lack of any definitive resolution. Two points, though: First, the ETH shouldn't be singled out; "demons" haven't openly shown themselves either nor "time travelers." Second, intensification of the phenomenon relatively recently suggests the denoument of this whole thing is not far off, in terms of historical time. Not long ago, I encountered a book, Revealed the Greatest UFO Secrets. It's just a POD book--no doubt in part because it's way too controversial for any trade publisher to touch. I was intrigued, though, by the way it spelled out exactly what requisite conditions must be met for disclosure and the circumstances under which it'll supposedly happen. From what I know of your orientation, you'd absolutely hate it, but it does seriously address the issue of when this interminable wait will finally end. It claims, though, that many of those who seek disclosure now wouldn't, if only they knew what it would lead to.


According to popular myth (and that is all any of this is) Demons do not know or care to know time as you and I in this physical plane know it to be. There is no sense of going into the past or future as we allow the concept as a guide. There have been cases of Demonic activity waiting years and years to fall prey upon a victim, and this for the sins of his father's father's father.....who knows what the Lord gave them when he allowed for the rule of this plane. I can state that fairness wasn't one of them, and by the way...God....Isn't good or evil. The reason why he sent his son to us is because we needed to be saved from God's wrath....just check out the old testament sometime to see the "myths" behind God's wrath.

Why would you state something like "I'd hate it" without knowing me on a personal basis for? You would be very surprised what I'd hate and what I'd like in this plane of existence. As I have stated many times on this forum, I would welcome E.T. with open arms if that is what is causing these many sightings, abductions etc. I wouldn't have a problem whatsoever with my "religious" feelings and that of an extraterrestrial intelligence. The Lord has already taught us that there are many planes of existence. That there were Monsters and creatures which roamed this world at one time. That there are spirits which continue to walk this world. That God created the HEAVENS and the earth....So who is to say he didn't create a myriad amount of different species of intelligence with vastly proportionate levels of conscious awareness.

But not the majority who have studied these things in depth.

Majority? I think you mean the minuscule minority who studied this subject; both of us included....and even though you might believe that E.T. has had this immense influence on us humans, I tend to believe the opposite. And continue to believe that what is happening to people is what I and many Christians call, "Demonic" in nature. The explanation might sound "Bronze" age of me, but I tend to be old fashioned anyway.....So we'll see some day.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

I attack ideas not people. Another poster referred to me as "Traj-anus." When did I ever attack someone personally like that?

It was I who made the typo and placed the hyphen between your "Traz" and your "Anus"....LOL! I had since apologized. And exorcise I believe a great deal more humble than the constant bombardment of anti religious propaganda spewing forth from both yourself and Mike (who I called Mikey), even though the topics had nothing to do with thus in the slightest....Faith versus Factual Evidence, etc. etc.
 
Yet not one has been unequivocally stated as extraterrestrial in origin, simply because it would be impossible to do so with the lack of any physical evidence showing thus. Any and all trace elements have shown heat dispersal, changes in vegetation, but not one site has given us any insight into how or why or what originated.

Witnesses reported unusual craft making the marks etc and in some cases, it was determined that the object weighed many tons. Ergo, a hoax appears impossible to account for an unusual technological flying thing. Strange metal is also known IIRC Fowler wrote about this in Socorro saucer in a pentagon pantry.



Which prove what? Fast walkers....objects that walk fast? No. Objects which move fast in the heavens....Which show nothing in terms of their origination or from what or why they occur. Most are considered anomalous in nature, and those which have solubility are classified as "Unidentified Flying Objects" as was and continues to be my point. Notice the "Un" in "Unidentified".....it means not able to be identified as any classification other than a flying object. We have flying objects doing all sorts of strange maneuvers in the atmosphere as well. Does this mean they come just from outer space?

An object which enters our atmosphere from above, as seen on radar, and then exits above, is excellent evidence for ET inasmuch as nothing natural acts that way so it must be technological yet not from earth--it came from elsewhere.



Not so many grays look like people, and for this reason we have such trouble proving their existence. When and if you ever get a body or have one touch down and present us with his existence, then and only then will you have a leg to stand on. Until then the entire idea is merely theory and nothing more.

No, some have been photographed or have left footprints or caused injuries.



Nor are little gray aliens without so much as one iota of proof. Satan (The Devil), as we call him in his fallen state, has placed his calling card in many areas of this world. In fact since we use "landing zones" as a way to enlighten the reader about "evidence", how about the many stories of the Devil placing his footprints, etc, in places:

At the ruined Kirk of Lady, near Overbister on Sanday, Orkney, are the Devil's Fingermarks, incised as parallel grooves into the parapet of the kirk. In North Kingstown is a large, granite ledge known as Devil's Foot Rock. Legends going back to the colonial era tell of a squaw being chased by the devil. Some say that she fled from Boston. Her pursuer is said to have left his footprints at Devil's Foot Rock, then at Chimney Hill in South Kingstown, and finally at Block Island.
The devil's talons at Saint Pancras church. *(Which I have seen by the way...really interesting)

At Dol de Bretagne in Brittany are found the claw mark of the devil on Mont Dol as well as the footprints of St. Michael. Near Holmfirth in Yorkshire, the devil left his footprints as scorch marks on Netherton Edge. One day, the devil disguised himself as a druid in an attempt to gain favour with the old priests but was discovered in his plans and so, in anger, flew out across the hills carrying a great stone with him, which he dropped from the skies, and it landed where the Hood Hill Stone still remains. Also, in anger, he jumped down and stood on the great rock and in doing so, left his footprint impressed upon the stone. The site is at Kilburn, Northallerton, in Yorkshire. In Lancashire, the devil threw stones at Clitheroe Castle and left his footprints in Deerstones Quarry near Pendle. At Castle Bentheim in Germany, there is a curious smooth rock that the devil used as a pillow, leaving behind an imprint of his ear. In Cologne, on a heavy stone called Teufelsstein, are imprinted the hands and talons of the devil. The Lugenstein in the cathedral square at Halberstadt was carried there by the devil to destroy the cathedral. It was too heavy, and he dropped it, leaving behind an imprint of his red hot thumb.

Sir Fergus Barclay, also known as the De'il of Ardrossan, was a horseman, famous around the lands for his tremendous skill. The secret to his skill, however, was a magical bridle, which was given to Barclay by the devil, in exchange for his soul. However, the devil was tricked by Barclay into giving his soul back. Infuriated by this trickery, the devil attacked the castle in his rage and is said to have left his hoof prints on one of the rocks.

On the eastern wall of the church of Saint Pancras in the ancient monastery of Saint Augustine outside Canterbury is to be seen the imprint of the devil's talons as he was furious that his heathen temple had become a Christian place of worship.On a coping stone of the Devil's Bridge at Kirkby Lonsdale in Cumbria are the fingermarks of the devil left behind when in his fury at being tricked out of a soul.


So here you have the supposed "Devil" leaving his "Landing Zone"...which proves nothing at all, right?

UFO landing sites aren't old legends but modern reports; some like socorro, have been thoroughly investigated. I don't suppose there's much documentary evidence for visits by satan...other than his alleged handiwork--legends and old stories aren't in the same league as reports with firsthand witnesses besides physical evidence.



Whether they can "really" prove anything isn't the question here....they haven't and that is the point. The E.T. origins would have to be directly correlating to any and all physical proof, such as a dead body, a fossil, DNA, anything but landing zones, radar devices and the documentation of witnesses. These three variables do nothing to show unequivocal proof that an extraterrestrial is behind the craft.....an intelligent life form maybe......but where and how is still up for grabs and even then, we would be grasping at straws because we still wouldn't have the creator of the craft or any information as to it's origions, etc. Without this proof the so called evidence you have is nothing more than myth, just like my "religious" beliefs are nothing more than my own and many millions of other people's wishes, even though sightings of Jesus are said to be everywhere.....that miracles are done in his name everyday...etc.

There's a difference: there is some physical evidence for aliens as well as UFOs. Another point is that many people have eagerly wanted to see jesus, whereas UFO/alien witnesses are often skeptics or wholly indifferent to the subject beforehand, which says something about the relative credibility of the two kinds of reports. :)


Nope. Sorry there really isn't. I have asked you many times to please provide the "plenty" of evidence you constantly allude to, but other than reported sightings, some photos and a landing spot or two, not one piece provides the guarantee or even the slightest amount of realistic disclosure as to "intelligent" extraterrestrial life.

Yet again, I said "evidence" not conclusive proof. Of course the phenomenon can be interpreted more than one way but that doesn't mean all interpretations are equally plausible. The ETH is most in line with modern science and rationality--far more so than "demons" or time travelers.

With Demons you have manifestation and pre and post aftereffects. A victim is possessed and the exorcist weeds them out.

With E.T. we have nothing but the good faith of the eyewitness to believe they ever abducted them in the first place.

With Demons we have ectoplasm, people thrown against walls, people speaking in strange and foreign tongues backwards, illicitng all sorts of historical information they couldn't be privy too, etc.

With E.T. we have nothing but the good faith of eyewitnesses as to what happened. This and people like Dr. Jacobs and his distance hypno'capades'.

Scientifically speaking, Demons might not be as easily classified in any tight little concept of dimensionality or physical domain, but the effects of their influence is directed and obvious. I cannot say the same for E.T. in this sense, as they (if real anyway) seem to stay as illusive as physically possible. Other than some metal pulled out of people and a perhaps a bad case of anal irritation, what else do you have?

More than for "demons" themselves. One shouldn't attribute effects to something which isn't itself visible or has no other corroboration.




According to popular myth (and that is all any of this is) Demons do not know or care to know time as you and I in this physical plane know it to be. There is no sense of going into the past or future as we allow the concept as a guide. There have been cases of Demonic activity waiting years and years to fall prey upon a victim, and this for the sins of his father's father's father.....who knows what the Lord gave them when he allowed for the rule of this plane. I can state that fairness wasn't one of them, and by the way...God....Isn't good or evil. The reason why he sent his son to us is because we needed to be saved from God's wrath....just check out the old testament sometime to see the "myths" behind God's wrath.

Erhman and no doubt others, cast considerable doubt on the validity and reliability of all of that.

Why would you state something like "I'd hate it" without knowing me on a personal basis for? You would be very surprised what I'd hate and what I'd like in this plane of existence.

I assumed you'd hate a book which predicts the phenomenon will be the ultimate nemesis of traditional beliefs such as yours.


As I have stated many times on this forum, I would welcome E.T. with open arms if that is what is causing these many sightings, abductions etc.


Reminds me of Sagan. For all the fascination for the idea of alien life he professed I don't think he really had the stomach for it. He was wiling to consider the half-fish Oannes legend evidence for an alien visit in the past, and thought contact via radio might happen in the future. But he totally rejected ALL UFO reports i.e. any suggestion they're here now.



Majority? I think you mean the minuscule minority who studied this subject; both of us included....and even though you might believe that E.T. has had this immense influence on us humans, I tend to believe the opposite. And continue to believe that what is happening to people is what I and many Christians call, "Demonic" in nature. The explanation might sound "Bronze" age of me, but I tend to be old fashioned anyway.....

Yup. :)
 
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