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Sept. 20th 2009 - Brad Steiger Episode


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Well, perhaps it's not as simple as you think or you oversimplified the question. (Or I overcomplicated it as I tend to do. :redface:) What is their motivation and where does it stem from to be one or the other?

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Lol, I oversimplified it but was just giving you one example on when the line between trouble-some and benevolent is not so blurred. But it does seem that in most cases, it's very hard for us to discern if the entity is one or the other. And many times, this is where the trickster element comes in because they seem to go back and forth between being naughty and 'nice' so as to cause confusion for the person whom they are in contact with. The greys and other beings in UFO abduction lore are a good example of this only in those cases the continuum seems to run from being cold, dispassionate and aloof one moment to being 'friendly' and even caring the next. So for many abductee's, there's that confusion there where they end up having a love/hate relationship with those beings.

But let me give you an example of what I'm familiar with due to my many years as an EVP experimenter. What we have found is that many people who first attempt to get voices coming into their recordings often times first get a being showing up that we call Mr. Grump or the 'Dirty Old Man' because what we hear on playback sounds like a man with a gruff voice who's having a tourette's syndrome attack using all kinds of profanity that's often times very shocking and embarrassing for those who are hearing it on playback.
As one who has facilitated those who were curious to see if they could get a loved one coming in via evp, I have witnessed the Mr. Grump phenomenon many, many times.

What's interesting about this entity is that it never says its name (but only in the beginning) or anything about itself but it DOES sometimes say very personal things about the person who is recording (the recorder) so as to insult that individual as much as they possibly can. In short, this is NOT what we would call a benevolent being.

EVP recorders who are members of the Spiritualist Church say that the Mr. Grump entity is just a low level entity -- in other words, a human dis-incarnate who dwells on the lower astral levels. They say this because, at least traditionally, the Spiritualist Church teaches that there are no such things as 'demons', there are only low level's/earthbounds.

But for those of us who know better and are not tethered to a religious belief system, we acknowledge the Mr. Grump entitiy as one who is most likely a non-human being of some sort that DOES seem to dwell on those astral planes closest to our own hence why they come in so loud and clear. We do not recognize the Mr. Grump entity as a human dis-incarnate.

But here's the reason why I'm bringing this all up. The person who starts off getting a Mr. Grump coming into their recordings all the time eventually discovers that as time goes by, this entity's personality starts to change from vulgar, belligerent and obnoxious to kind, caring and friendly. For example, if you're a smoker, it will start telling you to "stop smoking" or "smoking is bad for you" ... lol, as if 'it' cares about you! Or it will even say things like 'I love you' completely out of the blue after having just spewed out a string of obscenities to you only moments before!

So the Mr. Grump entity is one example of the quintessential 'Trickster' but there are many others.

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Just thought I would add more information on this Mr. Grump/Dirty Old Man EVP entity. What we have also seen about this entity is that for those who are trying to contact a deceased male member of their family, if they have Mr. Grump coming in, he will eventually, in very clever ways, transform his persona into that male deceased person you are trying to contact. And if you try to verify that this entity is say... your deceased brother, because that's what Mr. Grump is now calling himself as he is now Mr. Grump, the mimicker... he can answer those verification questions because he can read your mind. If you know the answer to the question, he knows it too. But of course, there are female versions of the Mr. Grump entity too but it's the male version that usually comes in first.
Many times when these mimickers come in who call themselves the name of the deceased person you're trying to contact, one will also hear a chorus of voices in the background shouting "He's NOT so and so!!" as if they are all competing with each other to come in and pose as your loved one by putting down and attempting to diminish the credibilty of the mimicker who's currently up at front and is communicating with you directly.

Also, the ones who establish an identity then can jump into one evp experimenter's recordings to the next. So, for example, if Mrs. Jones is in contact via evp with her deceased daughter Mary and you're another evp experimenter who is friends with Mrs. Jones, Mary may show up in your own evp recordings and may start coming into all of your evp sessions.. forever more. So are these spirits really who and what they say they are? In some cases, it's hard to tell, but just knowing that most of them are mimickers tells me to err on the side of caution and admit that most of those beings who come in via evp are not human and never were -- they are the mimickers.

At any rate, back to Mr. Grump... I think it's very sad that those of the Spiritualist faith and those who basically believe the same things they do... will often tell these Mr. Grump entities to "go into the light" treating them as if they are human dis-incarnates who are earthbound because they can't find their way to the light when in actuality the place where they are is the place where they exist. Call it the noosphere or call it Magonia or call it never-never land but don't call it heaven even if they insist that that's where they are in our evp recordings. :)
 
...because they seem to go back and forth between being naughty and 'nice'

So even Santa remains perplexed. ;)

That is wildly fascinating info regarding the EVP interactions. I too would think they would be non human and can tap into your self in the interactions. This does lend to the idea that they could possibly be a reflection of yourself though rather than a unique entity. Of course, they could still be some separate entity that could either be themselves or act in reflection to you, for lack of a better way of phrasing it.

In reading your discussion about the "Grumpy Old Man" I am reminded about a book someone pointed me to once. I can't remember the name of it now (and couldn't find it after a slack attempt to Google it up) but it was about a woman who's spirit guide started out as a wonderful assistance to her but eventually wound up "destroying her life." It too really lends to the trickster idea but more in the reverse of your accounts. Are these EVPs you are speaking about available online anywhere? I'd LOVE to listen to some of them.
 
NorthernSoul

Oh... the Mr. Grump entity is a being/entity unto itself just like if you saw an elephant at a zoo.. you would not think that just because you are 'seeing' and hearing that elephant ... that it is in actuality a reflection of YOU in any way shape or form... er, same goes for Mr. Grump. Lol...

On the other hand, I DO think that there is a possibility that the Mr. Grump entity comes in like it does for newbies where it's spewing off all kinds of vulgarities perhaps because it senses the newbie's initial apprehension and fear and it wants to SHOCK the newbie into becoming even more fearful so that 'it' can feed off that fear -- that energy. And most definitely, especially for newbies, they often times feel fatigued and less energetic after they conduct their evp sessions. Not that this ends after one has recorded for awhile but it's much more noticeable when one is first starting out.
So yes, in a sense, the Mr. Grump entity as it first comes in when it's shouting out obscenities and and so on.. is in effect reflection of the newbie evp recorder in the sense that it is a manifestation of the FEAR that that newbie is experiencing as he or she endeavors to contact those in the 'spirit' world. Good point. But it's a separate entity apart from you.. it's a being unto itself...

Anyway... Mr. Grump evp's are not something that anyone wants to save in their archive.. believe me, they are that bad... most of the time they are saying private information that the receiver is too embarrassed about to have anyone else listen to.
But if I find one anywhere.. I will let you know and send it to you for you to hear. The funny thing is though, we often times hear Mr.Grump in those evp recorded by new ghost hunters who try to record evp at so-called haunted locations. They will be overjoyed to have recorded the most nasty ghost ever at that particular location not knowing that it's only Mr. Grump and not, for example, the Ghost of the Queen Mary. ;)

PS... but once again, I venture to say that most of those evp from ghost hunting expeditions are the Mr. Grump/mimicker entity posing as whatever expectations those in the ghost hunting group hope to capture, via evp.
 
I just remembered that one evp experimenter who's got her own evp site has a page of recordings entitled "Nasty" which has spirits coming in saying nasty things.
This person is a spiritualist and follower of !#@ *%$&#@ who is one of the top directors of the National Spirtualist Church.. who is also the director of AA-EVP which is run by that church.
Anyway, this poor girl thinks she is in contact with her deceased son Joey but if you listen to any of her evp of Joey speaking, you will notice that the voice is not that of a child but is one who sounds like a Mr. Grump entity -- the voice is harsh and gruff...
But listen to some of her recordings on her "Nasty" page below... most of her evp are not very good in quality as there are those out there who get much clearer evp on a consistent basis than she does... just thought you may want to listen to it anyway. She's only got short snippet's here because most likely the whole recordings are just too vulgar and personal for her to post the whole recording...

http://www.1800heaven.com/evpnasty.htm
 
I thought this episode was entertaining and a change of pace, although the nuts and bolts/specific evidence for most of the stories didn't seem to be discussed much which I would have liked to hear more of to support the claims.

The one story Brad told which I don't think he quite finished was the one about the Baptist kid who went into a bar and got possessed by some vampire entity. Brad said the kid went into a mental institution and I was waiting for the ending of the story and then......... on to another subject :( Doh! Did that kid get an exorcism? Did he remain in the institution? Did he go on to run for Governor on a pro-exorcism ticket? Play minor league baseball? Get a job and movedto the city? Become a booze runner?

Brad sounds like he should do voice overs, very distinctive Charlton Heston type of voice, particularly in his ad on the show. "Welcome to a world of light and sound hidden handshakes and secret societies ....."
 
While some of those seem questionable, others are pretty clear. That's pretty interesting stuff. I wonder how your interaction could affect the discussion in these cases. Personally, I would likely be a bit rude if someone was more trying to hear me but not really listening...

I'm glad you found some of those evp recordings interesting.
But, would you mind rephrasing your questions about interactions and so on? I'm not sure what you are referring to. thanks :)
 
I'm glad you found some of those evp recordings interesting.
But, would you mind rephrasing your questions about interactions and so on? I'm not sure what you are referring to. thanks :)

It was more of a pondering rather than a question really. I just mean, seeing as they are obviously sentient and somewhat intelligent... so just like any other being of this nature, they are subject to reactionary behavior. So, if you tried to respond to them differently, could you manipulate the interaction and thus their behavior to some degree? Like, play a trick on the trickster, so to speak?
 
I have spent quite a bit of time over the past six years documenting haunted site investigations including the Manteno State Hospital site in IL and the Sallie House in Acheson, KS—both extremely unsettled locations. I have been working w/ a crack team of investigators including Michael Esposito, one of the world's top EVP experts. We have captured hundreds of EVPs including some that appear to be interactive. Michael has come up w/ an interesting idea of provoking these entities/energies to get them to react to introduced stimuli. For instance: He wants to go into an abandoned TB hospital and play recorded sounds of iron-lung machines, TB patients coughing uncontrollably and walk around clicking zippo lighters, lighting cigarettes and cigars. The theory is that these forms of stimuli might provoke lingering energies/entities into reacting in a way that can be documented. Pretty cool idea, but it could be a "careful what you wish" for scenario.
 
It was more of a pondering rather than a question really. I just mean, seeing as they are obviously sentient and somewhat intelligent... so just like any other being of this nature, they are subject to reactionary behavior. So, if you tried to respond to them differently, could you manipulate the interaction and thus their behavior to some degree? Like, play a trick on the trickster, so to speak?

I think ghost hunters like Christopher O'Brian, for example, get such interesting EVP results because just by being at a so-called haunted location, there are certain expectations amongst the team in terms of what they hope or even expect to have come into their evp recordings at that location.

So those entities who have bonded with those evp recorders who record on a regular basis for over 10 years who are in his team will respond via EVP in such a way so that those expectations within the group are met, at least to a certain extent -- (those entities are mind readers)

For this reason, IMHO, it's much better for a ghost hunting group to NOT have any long time successful EVP recorders be present during those on-site paranormal investigations.

For example, I'm not trying to pull rank here as to my expertise in ITC/EVP, but my experience with this phenomenon harkens waaaaay back to the days of Sarah Esteps directorship of AA-EVP in the prehistoric days before the internet. Just saying that I'm no spring chicken and that I know what I'm talking about in regards to the EVP phenomenon.

So, keeping this in mind, I'm one of those recorders who can ask my evp contacts to say a name and/or even say, "this is joe blow" and someone will say it where it will be heard on playback. In other words, if someone who is one of the greatest evp recorders in the world is recording with a team, you just have to hope that that person is not manipulating the results of those evps in that investigation by making requests to his evp contacts to perform and or say something at that location. Lol, there are many of us who have decided to keep those Mr. Grumps on ice... sort of like having your own electronic 'familiar'.

But then of course you get the beginner EVP recorders where many of them get that Mr. Grump entity coming in anyway --- an entity who will also come in at any so-called haunted location they go to too! And this entity will even play it up for the group to match up to what they all hope to hear!
The bottom line is, these entities can read your mind.

So the bottom line is this, no matter what kinds of results anyone gets at any given so called haunted location... as far those evps that are captured at those locations go... they are most likely the Mr.Grump/mimicker entities that can be recorded even in your own living room! This said though, I have to admit that it is fun to see those entities ham it up when recorded at any of those locations... they really do what to please you so for this reason, they will perform for you -- any way you want... in terms of evp and even making audible noises too!! i.e. thumping on a wall or table.. :)
 
Oh interesting... I didn't get that you were saying that these entities were following you from location to location. What I mean though, is when dealing with them, just treat them like someone you'd meet on the street. If they speak rudely to you, have at them back. Don't be mystified or overly entranced by the encounter, simply go back at them with whatever is on your mind. Play on words and such to see how you can transform the interaction into something beyond a typical EVP.

That being said, this idea of them reading your mind and following you location to location... it sure lends credence to the idea that you MAY be experiencing some phenomena more akin to somehow picking up something coming from a member of the group (perhaps subconscious thought externalized) rather than a separate entity. I'm not saying that is the case, but it's wholly possible. Perhaps the trickster and the one being tricked is one and the same without one party, or perhaps even both being aware of it. Hmmm..... I think I just blew up my brain. :redface:
 
Oh interesting... I didn't get that you were saying that these entities were following you from location to location. What I mean though, is when dealing with them, just treat them like someone you'd meet on the street. If they speak rudely to you, have at them back. Don't be mystified or overly entranced by the encounter, simply go back at them with whatever is on your mind. Play on words and such to see how you can transform the interaction into something beyond a typical EVP.

That being said, this idea of them reading your mind and following you location to location... it sure lends credence to the idea that you MAY be experiencing some phenomena more akin to somehow picking up something coming from a member of the group (perhaps subconscious thought externalized) rather than a separate entity. I'm not saying that is the case, but it's wholly possible. Perhaps the trickster and the one being tricked is one and the same without one party, or perhaps even both being aware of it. Hmmm..... I think I just blew up my brain. :redface:


Well, there are limitations as far as interacting with those contacts we have via EVP. If you ask them to repeat a name or a word or two, they can do that. If you hide something in your house and ask them where it is, they will tell you where it is. If you ask them anything that you already know the answer to, they give you the correct answer. If you ask them very simple questions like, where are you now? The standard answer is "I am in heaven" -- or they will say things like "I am right behind you" -- or if you are hoping or expecting them to answer by saying the place that you are investigating.. they will say that that is where they are at... You can even ask them to do some simple math.

As to your second question... I suppose something like that could happen if someone was recording on location with a group... anything is possible and there have even been reports of evp recorders capturing the voices of living loved ones while they are sleeping.
That's whole other topic... very interesting too!
But, here we are talking about those entities who come over EVP recordings. They are real entities... not psychological projections. :D
 
So what exactly are we supposed to be hearing in that recording?

dB

It often times takes a trained ear to discern what an evp recording is saying. Some people though never are able to understand them due to any number of hearing deficits. :)

This one is very clear for those who are used to listening to evp recordings.
 
But, here we are talking about those entities who come over EVP recordings. They are real entities... not psychological projections. :D

But, and I don't mean this to prove a point or sound argumentative by any means, how can you say that you KNOW this? Is it not just your intuition that tells you this? For instance, if they truly are the trickster, perhaps they are simply tricking you? If it is something unknown inside yourself, there really is no evidence to either disprove or prove this theory just like their really isn't any for any other hypothesis on what exactly is interacting on the recordings. Or is there and I am just not aware of it?

It often times takes a trained ear to discern what an evp recording is saying. So people though never are able to understand them due to any number of hearing deficits. :)

This one is very clear for those who are used to listening to evp recordings.

I guess I am too untrained.... :frown:

Though I heard something to the extent of digital noise or music or something along with the echo?
 
But, and I don't mean this to prove a point or sound argumentative by any means, how can you say that you KNOW this? Is it not just your intuition that tells you this? For instance, if they truly are the trickster, perhaps they are simply tricking you? If it is something unknown inside yourself, there really is no evidence to either disprove or prove this theory just like their really isn't any for any other hypothesis on what exactly is interacting on the recordings. Or is there and I am just not aware of it?



I guess I am too untrained.... :frown:

Though I heard something to the extent of digital noise or music or something along with the echo?


So are you saying that all evp recordings are voices of our deceased loved one's?

Here's what I'm saying, I am absolutely certain that most EVP are NOT spirits of the dead.
Just because you cannot discern what some evp are saying does not mean that the phenomenon is not real. There are many EVP recorders now and there even more who calling themselves experts on EVP when they themselves can not even record any themselves.. the director of AA-EVP is one example of this.

The only way you will find out if this phenomenon is real, will be for you to try to record evp yourself. Only when you start getting your own recordings will you know that this phenomenon is real.

In any case, the fact that there is such an entity as what we call Mr.Grump or The Dirty Old Man. And that many beginners in recording evp have such an entity coming in... where he also can mimick anyone whom you hope to contact via EVP... how is it that anyone can say with any certainty that those voices who claim to be anyone is really who and what they say they are??



There are many of us who think the Mr. Grump entity is NOT human nor was ever human. That 'it' is not a human dis-incarnate and is a unidentified entity that we really don't have a name for yet -- except Mr. Grump and/or the mimicker.
 
So are you saying that all evp recordings are voices of our deceased loved one's?

No not at all! I am simply saying we really don't know WHAT they are, as far as I know... which is not much of anything. How very Tao of me. 8) :p

But, as I am not even a novice let alone an expert, I am ready and willing to be instructed if there is something I am unaware of regarding EVP (or anything for that matter.)

I really hope I'm not coming off argumentative. I'm really just wondering.

And now some more 100% opinion-based theorizing, I am not sure a deceased anyone would really hang around here, myself. If they were able to, wouldn't a massive percentage of them want to? I think we prove here on this planet we tend to live in the past and have a hard time letting go of things. I can't imagine many would suddenly change that aspects of themselves simply because they died if it were possible to stick around, no?
 
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