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‘Remote viewers’ in Nevada help solve California murder

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
This is why I ignore Mr. Loren for the most part. Without even reading or listening to Dr. Bem's recent interview, he dismisses the research out of hand. If he had even glanced at the article and then commented as moderator, that would have been fine. But to dismiss what was left is where skeptical and debunker start to interpenetrate, in my opinion. At least I took the effort to look over his offerings, which Dr. Bem addresses in his interview. And as Gene stated “we're explorers,” which would suggest to me that if there are stones to be turned over, we should turn over those stones. And we're not talking about Uri Geller here, were discussing PSI research. And who said anything about a “team?”, as the underdog always has the uphill fight, and according to you, the hunter gatherer . Maybe talking monkeys will be flying out of pigs butts, but in the meantime I will continue turning over stones.
No need to insult people.

I did review the article, several times. What makes you think I haven't? The first time I heard about it was in Wired in November of 2010.
You shouldn't ignore what I post - I don't ignore what you post. As I said, Bem's research is interesting, but other scientists are having a hard time replicating it. I do understand that some scientists have replicated it though, so it'll be interesting when that research is presented.

P.S. It's an "I" not an "L."
 

The Pair of Cats

a.k.a Philip Deane
S.R.L. Great post mate. You have to remember that these guys don't get out. Well at least much past their keyboards and mouse. As soon as someone starts saying that they think psychics or RV is real they become "credulous" or simply "noticing coincidences" or cheering for your "team". If you asked them if they have gone out and visited a psychic they would say no. There is always an excuse.
I am quite okay for people being genuinely sceptical about those topics and wanting to see more evidence before committing to any opinion for or against. It's just the disingenuous way they sometimes treat people who have differing opinions or believe that the phenomena exists.
 

S.R.L.

Paranormal Adept
That Mr. Ioren was not an insult, as no insult was intended, but rather a statement of fact. As the interview (in my offering), is dated May 8th 2012 and a recent interview. What you are referring to was published in November 2010. So you can clearly see that you did not even consider the offering before posting your impression.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
S.R.L. Great post mate. You have to remember that these guys don't get out. Well at least much past their keyboards and mouse. As soon as someone starts saying that they think psychics or RV is real they become "credulous" or simply "noticing coincidences" or cheering for your "team". If you asked them if they have gone out and visited a psychic they would say no. There is always an excuse.
I am quite okay for people being genuinely sceptical about those topics and wanting to see more evidence before committing to any opinion for or against. It's just the disingenuous way they sometimes treat people who have differing opinions or believe that the phenomena exists.
Yup. I live in my parents' basement trolling internet forums all day long. How am I treating you "disingenuously?"
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
And who said anything about a “team?”, as the underdog always has the uphill fight, and according to you, the hunter gatherer . Maybe talking monkeys will be flying out of pigs butts, but in the meantime I will continue turning over stones.
I talking about the incredible debunker/skeptic/whatever back and forth that sounds more like an exchange about religious views than anything. The parties can't even seem to agree on the definition and use of terms!

If something interests you and you want to keep looking for it that is great. I spent a good two years if anything looking into crop circle reports, crop circle pictures, crop circle interviews, until I seen and heard everything within reason. Then I quit. I just don't find them interesting anymore having destroyed the mystic for myself. It is pretty much the same thing with psychics and psychic abilities with me.

You guys thought I was kidding but I wasn't. The more indefinite and undefined some notion is the easier it is for me to believe in it. I can believe that human brains can access information from other brains and the environment in ways we don't understand yet. When you dial it down to specific claims made people who promote themselves as psychics it is another matter. And like I've said, I've been very disappointed. I just stopped looking at it.

I think its best to be careful how we make absolute statements. All psychics are phony is the wrong way to put it. All psychics that I am aware of appear to me to be phonies can't be argued with. We all have strong opinions about different things but I can't muster the energy to have a strong opinion about this subject other than I haven't been convinced personally. I'd be open to evidence to the contrary and I've changed my mind about this sort thing more than once already so it isn't like I don't have a track record.
 

S.R.L.

Paranormal Adept
I like to think that the paracast goes beyond the skeptic vs. believer BS. However, when someone questions paranormal claims, apparently we're using dirty tricks. Believe what you want to believe, but one must understand that not everyone is as credulous as you may be.
I'm not talking about the Paracast, I'm talking about your statements. and responses.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
The key to all this is replication of course. If the experiments can be replicated and expanded on by other individuals then I'd say there is really something there. That is what is so frustrating about these things for me. Nothing comes of it. There always seems to be some hint, some indication that something like ESP exists, yet every time you scratch the paint you find it isn't baked on. It can't be replicated in any fashion that makes it useful in the real world. You have to be able to productize it and synthesize it so you commercialize it or it doesn't exist any real sense other than a curiosity in the modern world. Am I wrong?
 

The Pair of Cats

a.k.a Philip Deane
Rick. Apart from the fact that you attributed someone SRL's quote to me, I think you are close to the money. This whole thing started as a result of a comment by Angelo which was absolutism at it's finest. He then tried to say he meant something else and that myself and everyone else should have been able to deduce that.
Forget that "psychic" means "paranormal" for a moment and think of it as being just another one of our senses. It's a pretty simple concept really, although the proof is exceedingly evasive. Anyone who claims they have "powers" in a magical or Hollywood type of way is deluded, uneducated or at the very least doesn't think too deeply about where these so called powers are coming from. And yes if they are making claims then they should be avoided at all costs.
I am not trying to change anybody's mind here. I think it falls outside of science, at least for the moment. Whilst you feel some angst in regards to the fact that terms and definitions cannot be agreed upon, just looking at the meaning of the word gives you a clue. If you are willing to think along the lines of Angelo et al., then you could also think along the lines of being psychic as "of the soul", could you not?
I worked as a psyhic , professionally for 8 years in a number of settings. I now do not have the time to do it in a work setting, i do it as a favor for people and charge nothing and make no claims. These days my reading is complete before i even sit down with the person. I read them my results whilst asking them to make no comment on their veracity until i have finished. They can then tell me what i got right or got wrong.
There is no cold reading involved. All i work from initially is their name written down on a piece of paper. Sometimes it is a matter of days before i see the client, sometimes only hours.
My accuracy rate falls between 50-80%, going by the opinions of the client themselves.
I have also met countless other working psychics, none, who made claims about their methods or abilities, let alone that they are paranormal, although i am aware that there are famous TV and stage psychics who do.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
Sometimes I feel like I have to walk around on eggshells with these topics or else I'll be accused of being close minded and a coward. Phil, I don't see any reason to believe that anyone can predict the future or clearly see something in another part of the world. There have been experiments on the subject and there have been interesting results. I acknowledge that. I have never denied that fact. However, you and SRL are trying to paint me as some sort of person that will not listen to reason. I have a hard time accepting something until there is concrete proof. Right now, I don't see any concrete proof. SRL, you're frustrated that I didn't listen to the Skeptico link you provided, but to say I don't know anything about Bem's work is just wrong. I've tried listening to Skeptico, but the host seems to have some sort of Skeptic vs Believer agenda that I can't stomach. He's moving nothing forward.

Phil, you say you make no claims, yet you say you are a psychic that has a 50 - 80% accuracy rate. What exactly do you do?
 

boomerang

Paranormal Adept
Disclaimer: I have not read all previous posts here.

I would only say that a phenomenon intermittently but recurrently well documented may constitute something that is real, but does not lend itself to systematic analysis and understanding. Science has established a long tradition of transforming mysterious properties of nature into consistent cause and effect models. We have used these models to bend laws of nature for tangible reward.

So maybe stop and ask: Are we really studying and utilizing this class of phenomena (which has been seemingly well documented) ? Or--is a more powerful order of nature studying or utilizing us?

I would no more consult a psychic in search of critical information that I would design manned aircraft based on credible ufo reports.
 

tyder001

Paranormal Adept
Let me say this about Skeptico. I agree the host has a certain mindset or agenda. So, do Schermer and Randi and so does the Dali Lama. ;) But, the host does bring on skeptics. I mean some of the same skeptics that Angel quotes on here. So, at least he gets kudos from me for that. I promise you that I have never (and won't hold my breath) seen these wonderful skeptics invite researchers such as Sheldrake or others into their den and let them have their say. So, that's all I got to say about that particular show. He is willing to let the skeptics and the believers have their say without being a bully or rude.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Rick. Apart from the fact that you attributed someone SRL's quote to me, I think you are close to the money.
My apologies, I was doing several things at once and none of them well.

Forget that "psychic" means "paranormal" for a moment and think of it as being just another one of our senses.
Is it really a separate sense or a gestalt giving the appearance of one?

I am not trying to change anybody's mind here. I think it falls outside of science, at least for the moment.
A great stumbling block for me personally. If something falls outside of science then what are we to make of it? What tools do we use to verify it? How do we study it if not through the scientific method using scientific disciplines? I just draw a blank.

Whilst you feel some angst in regards to the fact that terms and definitions cannot be agreed upon, just looking at the meaning of the word gives you a clue. If you are willing to think along the lines of Angelo et al., then you could also think along the lines of being psychic as "of the soul", could you not?
If we can't understand what is other are saying you can't have a conversation. Terms have to be agreed upon if just for the sake of the discussion. What are you referring to when you use the word "soul." The emotional and psychological makeup of a person (a synonym for mind) or an ethereal component of a human being? I for one don't believe in an ethereal soul. Rather than descend into a debate about that, maybe the central argument just needs to be reframed to narrow things down. "Do people possess a sixth sense?" or something.

I worked as a psyhic , professionally for 8 years in a number of settings. I now do not have the time to do it in a work setting, i do it as a favor for people and charge nothing and make no claims. These days my reading is complete before i even sit down with the person. I read them my results whilst asking them to make no comment on their veracity until i have finished. They can then tell me what i got right or got wrong.
There is no cold reading involved. All i work from initially is their name written down on a piece of paper. Sometimes it is a matter of days before i see the client, sometimes only hours.
My accuracy rate falls between 50-80%, going by the opinions of the client themselves.
I have also met countless other working psychics, none, who made claims about their methods or abilities, let alone that they are paranormal, although i am aware that there are famous TV and stage psychics who do.
Wow, cool. I did not know that. So we can really get specific then.

Can we define your ability as: Being able to access information through nonstandard means? Nonstandard means being something outside of the commonly accepted operation of the five senses.

That would make, for the sake of the discussion, a psychic: A psychic is a person who professes an ability to perceive information through nonstandard means.

When you say no working psychics made claims about their methods or abilities, do you mean they made no claims about how it works? In other words they made no claims about what the mechanism behind their ability to access information?

As a psychic yourself, do you have any personal insight into the mechanism behind your abilities? By mechanism I mean whatever organs, processes, or what have you that produces the reading event when it occurs?
 

The Pair of Cats

a.k.a Philip Deane
Can we define your ability as: Being able to access information through nonstandard means? Nonstandard means being something outside of the commonly accepted operation of the five senses.
The problem here, Rick, is what you alluded to earlier in your post in regards to defining terms and definitions. Do i or we as humans have a sixth sense? I believe that we do. The problem is you and others may not believe that is so. Science can't even define consciousness let alone a "sixth" sense.
For example, when a friend or partner is having an emotional event, whether that emotion is sadness, anger or elation. What are we picking up from them? For sure body language and facial expressions are clear give aways, but what else are you getting? Do you ever "feel" their angst or anger as well? Especially if that person isn't particularly animated about whatever they are going through.
I believe that i am able to perceive things about that person by using that "sixth" sense. Now I personally don't believe that doing this is something special or paranormal etc. I believe that ALL humans possess that innate sense and are able use it at will and do so on a daily basis. The difference is that the majority of people don't look at this as being anything special either or rather don't even realise they are using it. That;'s the real problem here.
What i do is take notice of feelings, impressions and emotions that i feel about my client and write them down on a piece of paper before the client arrives at my house. Now you and others may want to define that as other worldy or outside the boundaries of the known 5 senses but i consider it the heightened use of ALL of my senses.

When you say no working psychics made claims about their methods or abilities, do you mean they made no claims about how it works? In other words they made no claims about what the mechanism behind their ability to access information?
Yes the psychics I know make no claims as to the origin or cause of what they are doing. Those who i have talked to about it say the same thing as me, that is, it's a perfectly natural ability
Having said that i am sure that you are correct in the fact that there may be psychics who do claim to have "paranormal" or supernatural powers, possibly the TV or stage psychics. I don't watch any of them so i have to take your word for that.
As a psychic yourself, do you have any personal insight into the mechanism behind your abilities? By mechanism I mean whatever organs, processes, or what have you that produces the reading event when it occurs?
It's difficult to describe as it is tempting to use scientific type terms which are probably incorrect or misleading. It's like using your mind to analyze or translate the information that you are receiving from the client, such as emotions etc., into a meaningful or understandable description of those events. I have always felt that our language is somewhat inadequate for humans being able to describe these functions.

Angel of Ioren said:
Phil, you say you make no claims, yet you say you are a psychic that has a 50 - 80% accuracy rate. What exactly do you do?
What i said was my clients, during their feed back to me of their reading, indicate to me an accuracy rate between 50-80%. I make no claims of any accuracy rate to them or others or advertise any sort of success rate or claim to have any paranormal type powers. It is likely that in any given reading i could have a 0% accuracy rate or i could have a 100% rate. Every reading is different and unique to that person. I have indeed had a 0% reading at one time as i have had a 100% correct reading as i mentioned to you in our conversation.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
I think I understand what you getting at Phil. I would agree that this is a natural occurring phenomena that is obviously not understood in any real way even by those who experience or make use of it. It is what you believe it to be? Is it a subconscious mental process making connections behind the scenes? Is it something some folks have and other don't? I can't tell.
 


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