Mossad did 9/11. Period.

[Xylo]

Well you kinda pigeon-holed yourself there. You've placed yourself (even if in part) on the side of the "Truthers". Don't get me wrong, I agree with your stance and am about at the same stage as you in this debate. I think there is more to the story than meets the eye.



Well you do cut and paste.
Building the World Trade Center (1983) - Documentary

You pasted this as part of your discussion with pixel did you not? How is this any different than him cutting and pasting? And then used quotes from that same documentary to further your case.

Are you saying that your information provided is more believable than pixels or anyone else's? How would anyone know for sure. (my info's more reliable than yours!!)
Everyone here in this discussion has their own opinion and is not afraid to present info (usually from the Net) to bolster their argument. (even you).
Both sides or even those taking somewhat centrist positions have plenty of excellent thought provoking material for us to sift through. Your info being a part of that.

Wow, talk about a tangent!

What I said was:

Hard work? He cut and pasted that, from what could have been 100 sources. The original work was first published in 2003.

See: City in the sky By James Glanz, Eric Lipton.

His hard work is reiteration of half-truths and misconceptions along with misdirection and bad logic.

I am not condemning cut & paste however, I do not have any preconceived notions that cutting and pasting is hard work. I saw a video years ago, I googled it and 0.64352 seconds later there were hundreds of results. That's not hard work, that's basic web usage 101.

I believe that there is a great deal more to learn about the events of September 11, 2001. I don't believe that anything will change because of those things which we may learn. But it would help if the conversations related to these events follow a straightforward path, and that everyone involved think critically, logically and process information in a somewhat logical fashion.

 

[pixelsmith]

My last lengthy post was cut and pasted from one source altho 100 sources may have been ideal. Researching 9/11 is not too different from researching everything else posted on this forum. I do not expect or want anyone to believe a single word I post. I want to cause enough interest or doubt in the official story that someone might just dig a little deeper than what mainstream media feeds us and make up their own mind.

I see no problem with cut and paste. I have little time to retype anything of great length.

 

[Xylo]

My last lengthy post was cut and pasted from one source altho 100 sources may have been ideal. Researching 9/11 is not too different from researching everything else posted on this forum. I do not expect or want anyone to believe a single word I post. I want to cause enough interest or doubt in the official story that someone might just dig a little deeper than what mainstream media feeds us and make up their own mind.

I see no problem with cut and paste. I have little time to retype anything of great length.

And there we are in agreement 100%. I knew we'd find some common ground in this thread!

 

[pixelsmith]

First off Pixelsmith, I don't have any answers. I am looking for them myself. I find enough suspicion in the events of 9/11 and the days previous to it, as well as the few days after to keep me looking for those answers. I actually consider myself a "truther."

Yep. There. I said it.

But for me to consider myself such, I have to seek "the truth" not through innuendo or shoddy evidence-but through critical thinking and analysis. And yes, I rely upon professional opinion a great deal as I am NOT qualified to read blueprints, nor am I qualified enough in fire science to determine what critical temperatures were reached in that fire.

Let me, if you will, mention somethings regarding the post that I have quoted: You wish for me to explain




Hmmm.


SOURCE
Reference

I do not believe that there are, or were any volcanoes present on Manhattan Island either on September 11, 2001 or today. So I'm going to guess that you mean the cloud of fire, debris, and smoke that resulted from the collapse of one or both of the WTC towers, which I will address.

The energy required to pick people off the ground would have been part of the shock wave associated with the rapid release of compressed matter from the collapse of the Towers. It would be easy enough to design an experiment to test this hypothesis. You do know that there was a shock wave, right?

I may be completely off my rocker, but I'm using logic to solve this conundrum.

You also want me to explain

Have you ever hit concrete with an airliner? Or a sledgehammer? Or a wrecking ball? Or a brick? Have you ever dropped concrete that was heated to 1000*F from 70 stories?

I have hit concrete with a sledgehammer, and pulverized it into a fine powder. I may have even thrown a brick at a concrete wall before. But the other choices I haven't done. Seems to me that with all the money the "truther" movement has, they could perform some experiments to answer their own questions.

I don't mind that there is suspicion. I don't mind that some people think there's a conspiracy. I think it's wonderful that there are people questioning the shoddy investigation (or lack thereof) by the government. But I HATE non-sensical, illogical, and asinine thinking. If the truther movement would just sit back and use common sense and a little bit of critical thinking, there would be more people willing to listen to their arguments. As of right now their representation of "the facts" is flawed and their arguments are misconstrued and illogical.

Pixelsmith, I like your passion, I just wish that you could temper your passion with, well, logic. Seek out the answers but don't be surprised when they are not the answers you wanted to find.

basically ALL concrete was pulverized. do you really believe one airliner could pulverize 110 floors of concrete laid down on metal sheeting? the concrete has been shown to be pulverized in the air and not as it hit the ground. LOGICALLY the fire theory would have left stacks of floors piled up with 47 steel core columns in the middle much like records staced up with a spindle in the middle. and there should have been a lot more debris. the mass of the "pyroclastic" cloud was greater than the building itself indicating immense heat above that of cold office fires.

 

[Xylo]

basically ALL concrete was pulverized. do you really believe one airliner could pulverize 110 floors of concrete laid down on metal sheeting? the concrete has been shown to be pulverized in the air and not as it hit the ground. LOGICALLY the fire theory would have left stacks of floors piled up with 47 steel core columns in the middle much like records staced up with a spindle in the middle. and there should have been a lot more debris. the mass of the "pyroclastic" cloud was greater than the building itself indicating immense heat above that of cold office fires.

I'm not a structural engineer, nor do I know what to expect from reinforced concrete falling from height, with fire, and thousands of tons of steel. When you say that basically "all" concrete was pulverized, that indicates to me that there were no boulder sized pieces. Is that what you mean to say?

As far as the mass of the cloud, how was that measured?

 

[derkaiser]

There's no way the bush admin would lie about 911. One of the most in your face criminal administrations, everything they did (patriot act,two wars, spying on americans ETC.) was justified cause of 911. So of course two planes hit and three buildings fell, duh.

 

[cottonzway]

General question in regards to this.

Do you consider any difference if the events were simply allowed to happen but there was no actual planning by anyone in the US government to the 9/11 events (LIHOP) or there was an organized plan to create the events with synthetic terrorism (MIHOP)?

I am not asking people to say they believe either of those scenarios, but would like to see what people think about this to maybe get this discussion towards something more constructive then what is going on now.

 

[Jose Collado]

10 pages later and...

 

[pixelsmith]

10 pages later and...

...and you are still trolling. go away.

 

[derkaiser]

Jose= Clown

 

[SarkozyAide]

If you have read this far and are still interested, I just found this page which very neatly ties a lot of the loose ends together. If you don't think that Governments ( and keep in mind, PEOPLE are what make up the Government) would lie and kill to achieve certain goals, you are deluding yourself.

http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/israel-did-911-all-the-proof-in-the-world/

 

[derkaiser]

I stay away from "debates" on this subject with "truthers" because I've learned from hard experience that there's no real debating with them. As Stan Friedman would say, in another context, they are the epitome of the mantra "don't bother me with the facts, because my mind is made up."

What gets me angry, however, is when one of them suggests that they're the only ones who really care about what happened on 9/11. A statement like that - which was made in this thread - simply illustrates their intellectual bankruptcy, at least on this issue.

There's also a strong element of implied cultural bias in the "truther" line of "thinking" - it had to be a conspiracy, they will say, because surely a bunch of motley "ay-rabs" couldn't bring down those buildings, and fly those planes, and... well, heck, do any of it - so we must have done it, with a massive conspiracy that would have involved hundreds, and probably thousands of people, from the top to the bottom.

The sad part is that there was a conspiracy, but it gets lost in the "truther" silliness. The real conspiracy occurred after 9/11, when the Bush government, along with its allies in Europe (Blair et al), took advantage of the tragedy to launch a war on Iraq. Frankly, knowing what we know now about that, a very good case could be made under international law to bring Bush, Blair, Cheney, Powell, et al to book as war criminals, for planning and waging an aggressive war - but that doesn't get discussed in polite circles, because the "truthers" have poisoned the well. It's easy to dismiss the real conspiracy, because they've linked it so inextricably to their fantasy.

And that's the real crime.

Wow, "truther's" have poisoned the well. You mean people who have eyes and brains, that don't buy the lies. Sorry but you are very ignorant...

 

[Jose Collado]

Wow, "truther's" have poisoned the well. You mean people who have eyes and brains, that don't buy the lies. Sorry but you are very ignorant...

So people who have eyes and brains are truthers? My oh my.

Got any new references of failed swimming pool engineers?

 

[derkaiser]

So people who have eyes and brains are truthers? My oh my.

Got any new references of failed swimming pool engineers?

You make great points jose, i'm starting to think that it really is possible to bring down 3 buildings with two airplanes. Thanks for helping me understand, i was really confused..

 

[Jose Collado]

I noticed. Now I just have to find a swimming pool engineer who hasn't had his license revoked to build my pool. Hopefully he isn't a truther because I want that pool to hold water.

 

[derkaiser]

and make sure that you never go into a skyscraper, because if it catches on fire it will collapse, so be careful

 

[Paul Kimball]

I am watching this thread degenerate into personal comments that have nothing to do with the issue that is supposedly under discussion. If this continues, i.e. the next time someone refers to someone else as ignorant, or anything like that, then the thread will be locked, and the offending party banned for a month.

Everyone on both sides can consider themselves warned.

 

[Kuzza]

I am watching this thread degenerate into personal comments that have nothing to do with the issue that is supposedly under discussion. If this continues, i.e. the next time someone refers to someone else as ignorant, or anything like that, then the thread will be locked, and the offending party banned for a month.

Everyone on both sides can consider themselves warned.

Paul I think the time has come to lock it.

I gave up 10 pages ago and I can't believe it is still going. Like I said before either party will never convince the other, and everybody has the right to believe in whatever they like. People criticizing others here on a forum is not productive.

What is needed is some sort of independent investigation. It was a crime and crimes should be investigated.

 

[Kieran]

Paul I think the time has come to lock it.

I gave up 10 pages ago and I can't believe it is still going. Like I said before either party will never convince the other, and everybody has the right to believe in whatever they like. People criticizing others here on a forum is not productive.

What is needed is some sort of independent investigation. It was a crime and crimes should be investigated.

I've backed away from this thread as has others because it is futile to convince someone your right there wrong when passions run so deep.

 

[pixelsmith]

Lock it and I will start another one.

I don't try to convince anyone. I provide information that can allow others to make up their own minds. If people like Jose would just stay away we can keep this civil. Jose is here to instigate and push buttons, thats all.