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Mitt's Magical Mormon Undies: Penn Jillette's Rant Redux
- Thread starter trainedobserver
- Start date
RenaissanceLady
Paranormal Adept
I've been saying the same thing for a very long time. Why do otherwise rational people decide to believe - at least to an extent - in absolutely crazy things? We laugh at Mormons and Scientologists but the truth is that their insanity is no more insane than things the majority of humans believe in every single day. The difference is, we've heard the other insanity for so long that it becomes a reality, even though this is simply due to it being an ingrained part of our culture. Mormonism is new, therefore we can look a bit more critically at it than we can at the things we take for granted.
I've heard people say that the universe didn't create itself, therefore there MUST be a God. I point out that having the universe create itself is no weirder than saying there was already a being in place (that was never born and can never die) that had the magic to create the universe. God is around because God is more palatable to human understanding. He is the ultimate answer to everything, just as long as we don't question His intentions or how He came to be the single absolute power in the universe. Oh yeah, He's also around to smite your enemies, justify all of your causes, keep people subservient and give power to a select few men who claim to carry out His work. My Buddy God can beat up your Buddy God during recess, then you need to give me your lunch money because I'm chosen by my invisible friend.
I've heard people say that the universe didn't create itself, therefore there MUST be a God. I point out that having the universe create itself is no weirder than saying there was already a being in place (that was never born and can never die) that had the magic to create the universe. God is around because God is more palatable to human understanding. He is the ultimate answer to everything, just as long as we don't question His intentions or how He came to be the single absolute power in the universe. Oh yeah, He's also around to smite your enemies, justify all of your causes, keep people subservient and give power to a select few men who claim to carry out His work. My Buddy God can beat up your Buddy God during recess, then you need to give me your lunch money because I'm chosen by my invisible friend.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
I like Penn.
I've always thought the concept of god was just an artificially created thought-box in which to put those uncomfortable or un-knowable things, such as 'is there a soul' and 'is there an afterlife' or 'where did the universe come from' etc
It can indeed be quite unsettling when you sit down and really, really think about these huge questions. Everyday troubles over money, work and relationships are just tiny compared to these questions of infinite proportions.
I strongly believe that having this box is just a very convenient way to 'answer' all these troubling questions and can allow people to concentrate on the day-to-day rather than get caught up in a never-ending quest for the un-knowable.
It is actually a neat trick that humans do in NOT going crazy over these huge questions. Now, personally for me I don't want to use a made-up cult to deal with these troubling questions. I prefer to mull them over and visit forums like this to exchange information and ideas with other intelligent thinkers who also don't want to cop-out by just shoving it all onto 'god'.
Yip.
It can indeed be quite unsettling when you sit down and really, really think about these huge questions. Everyday troubles over money, work and relationships are just tiny compared to these questions of infinite proportions.
I strongly believe that having this box is just a very convenient way to 'answer' all these troubling questions and can allow people to concentrate on the day-to-day rather than get caught up in a never-ending quest for the un-knowable.
It is actually a neat trick that humans do in NOT going crazy over these huge questions. Now, personally for me I don't want to use a made-up cult to deal with these troubling questions. I prefer to mull them over and visit forums like this to exchange information and ideas with other intelligent thinkers who also don't want to cop-out by just shoving it all onto 'god'.
Yip.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Here's my explanation: There is no magical Rosetta stone that can fill in the blanks. The "why people believe it" is simply a case of programming. People compartmentalize various kinds of information in ways that provide an advantage for them. Many of us recognize that some programming conflicts with other programming and we try to resolve those conflicts. That process comes naturally for some people, but for others it has to be learned. Until they learn it they simply switch from channel to channel utilizing whatever information they need at the time to accomplish what they're doing. For them there are no "blanks" to fill in because they literally don't see the conflicts. So when someone points them out they just don't get it, or worse yet their existing programming identifies it as a threat to the system and tries to block it because interfering with the existing programming disrupts existing relationships between information and social support systems that are already there and key to their continued existence. If those relationships break down a person can go into a kind of culture shock. So it's better to simply stay compartmentalized and continue the behavior that has worked for them, no matter how "crazy" it seems, than to rebuild an entirely new worldview that may or may not work any better.
Yes. Compartmentalisation is a huge part of it. I am constantly mouth-agape when one points out gaping holes in some belief systems, holes that are equivalent to very bad computer programming resulting in program crashes, and people still manage to carry on with their beliefs that have just been shown to be completely at odds with other beliefs held by the same people.
It's like there is a internal editor/censor on the payroll in someone's brain who is paid to prevent the owner seeing anything contradictory. The data goes in the eyes and ears but it is re-routed before it gets to the logical reasoning part of the brain. It obviously makes life easier for some people (the system with the editor)
It's like there is a internal editor/censor on the payroll in someone's brain who is paid to prevent the owner seeing anything contradictory. The data goes in the eyes and ears but it is re-routed before it gets to the logical reasoning part of the brain. It obviously makes life easier for some people (the system with the editor)
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
Yes, and by contrast, other people route new information through another layer of programming that compares it to all relevant existing information in a much more holistic manner. Consequently this creates a worldview that is also more holistic. This holistic system is also just as resistant to compartmentalization as a compartmentalized system is to becoming holistic. Switching either direction is a huge adjustment. I can see the analogy to being "born again" and in a practical sense which is really better? We see rich people with families and many friends who are running for the office of President. So that system obviously works. But at the same time a holistic approach seems to enable those who think that way to see the bigger picture easier than those who don't, and consequently they can see the "blanks".
Sean Elifritz
Administrator
Goodness, that whole thing about the courtroom is nearly word for word identical to arguments I've used when talking about religion with people. To me it's always been proof that people don't really believe what they say they do. If they did believe in the Bible, truly believe it, then they would acquit some people that claim God told them to kill. But they never do. They don't even seriously consider it. Instead they always assume the person is a nut or is making excuses. So obviously they don't really believe the Bible because in the Bible it is possible to be told to kill by God. Well, why say you believe it then?
Good post. Gonna' put it on my FB page.
Good post. Gonna' put it on my FB page.
Muadib
Paranormal Adept
I did the same thing, it immediately sparked a debate with some of my more conservative and religious friends. Who would've guessed? Logic is pretty much useless when dealing with people who harbor non rational beliefs, they'll find some way to justify it logical or not.
Quoted for truth, perfect score and stuck the landing
Newer cults like $cientology and Mormonism have less cultural investment/currency.
Thus its easier to see the insanity, our investment in these things is minimal.
This also applys to other religions to which we have not been exposed, again our personal investment is minimal which makes it easier to identify the absurdity .
God with 4 arms and an elephants head ?
Insane
The exact same logic that lets us recognise the sillyness of a cult we have no investment in also applys to the theology we were exposed to growing up.
The barrier to applying it, is that investment.
If running for a bus you cannot miss, you drop a 1 dollar note, its easy to keep running and write it off, but not so if you drop a hundred dollar note.
But the truth is if you can look beyond that cultural investment, no matter which theology you were exposed to, they are all insane. None makes any more or less sense than the half man half elephant god.
P
pixelsmith
Guest
wouldn't gods underpants be magical too?
Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
Here are some questions to ask a mormon:
1: have you seen the plates of gold?
2:do you have any evidce out side your book of morman that jewish tribes settled in america?
3: did you know joe smith was a convicted con man?
4: how are you sure smith did not bribe any so called wittness?
1: have you seen the plates of gold?
2:do you have any evidce out side your book of morman that jewish tribes settled in america?
3: did you know joe smith was a convicted con man?
4: how are you sure smith did not bribe any so called wittness?
Bob Watson
Paranormal Adept
any doubts about what mitt beleves? watch this!
Growing up as a lad in New Zealand, my parents went through a strange phase where they bounced from one religion to another. I later learned my step dad had done the dirty with mums sister, and i guess he was looking for forgiveness any place that he could.
Anyway during this mayhem they got baptised as mormons, i was the only family member who opted out. even at 10 i knew religion was bunk, and didnt see any need to get wet for no good reason.
I remember being surprised at how dirty the water was in the little indoor pool thing they used.
It was a light brown colour, one by one my mother stepdad brother and sister comes out in white robes and gets dunked in this putrid looking stuff.
Funnily enough the two missionary boys involved were a lot more understanding about my refusal to get baptised than my family, who were pretty pissed off that i wouldnt do it.
And my mother could be a real nasty bit of work when she was angry.
I remember about a month before my brother and i moved to live with our natural father.
It wasnt uncommon in our house for after dinner desert to be an adults only thing.
Sometimes the kids didnt get any, it was more a dietary thing than anything else.
But my brother and i had chosen to live with our father and about a month before we were due to fly out, something strange happened at the dinner table.
Desert was rolled out, mum got some, my step dad got some and my half sister (their daughter) got some. this was something new.
How come ? i asked
"Because shes staying and you're going, was mums reply"
We never got desert in that house again
Perhaps the water wasnt dirty enough, perhaps she didnt stay in for long enough
RenaissanceLady
Paranormal Adept
Oh my:
Mormon church threatens to excommunicate member who criticized Romney | The Raw Story
To be fair, "Don't think for yourself" isn't just a Mormon creed but rather the central theme for pretty much any religion. Mormon's are just in the spotlight right now because their golden calf might be the next leader of the free world.
Mormon church threatens to excommunicate member who criticized Romney | The Raw Story
To be fair, "Don't think for yourself" isn't just a Mormon creed but rather the central theme for pretty much any religion. Mormon's are just in the spotlight right now because their golden calf might be the next leader of the free world.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
That's exactly the kind of thing we've been talking about that makes it hard for people who have become invested in a belief system to have to face when all goes south on them.
“What you’re seeing with David is not atypical of what the church has done in the past, where local leadership becomes focused on riding into battle under the flag ‘out damn spot’ and ridding itself or perceived apostates,” Benson tells The Daily Beast. “I was under this kind of investigation when I left in '93. I didn’t want to give them the satisfaction of an excommunication. I no longer wanted to be a member of that organization.”
wester71
Paranormal Novice
Common sense is a lie, if sense is common then Huston we have a problem. Logic is personal belief. Belief comes from either experience or influence, or as the motto goes it comes with the territory. The thing I try not to do is impress my beliefs on others. Life is hard enough, why piss them off!
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I just want to spit my gum and out and howl when I think of the comic book logic and idiot plots of these insane creation stories such as the one in the video Bob posted above. Granted, that video was not produced by the Mormon church, however it does a good job of outlining the less talked about beliefs.
What is the difference in believing these ridiculously plotted stories are real and believing that a scientist on the planet Krypton sent his son here in a rocket ship? Absolutely none. However, if a presidential candidate stated that he believed Jor-El to be a historical or even a "religious" figure we'd sign him up for a rubber room tonight.
Every religious creation account that comes to mind sounds like a ridiculous children's story where the gods behave like brats, jealous emotionally stunted human beings, or cardboard characters written for a Mexican soap opera. The origins of these stories are painfully obvious. Really, really, bad writers. Some of the names of whom we know, Joey Smith, The L. Ron, but most are anonymous hacks whose names were rightfully forgotten.
What is the difference in believing these ridiculously plotted stories are real and believing that a scientist on the planet Krypton sent his son here in a rocket ship? Absolutely none. However, if a presidential candidate stated that he believed Jor-El to be a historical or even a "religious" figure we'd sign him up for a rubber room tonight.
Every religious creation account that comes to mind sounds like a ridiculous children's story where the gods behave like brats, jealous emotionally stunted human beings, or cardboard characters written for a Mexican soap opera. The origins of these stories are painfully obvious. Really, really, bad writers. Some of the names of whom we know, Joey Smith, The L. Ron, but most are anonymous hacks whose names were rightfully forgotten.
Which is exactly why slagging religion is fair game.
