March 5, 2017 — Women's Roundtable with Erica Lukes, Chase Kloetzke and Kathleen Marden

[matthew1977]

just listened to the Round Table. With an all star panel like that would have been great to hear a handful of their most interesting cases... I admire all 3 guest and hope they come back again. Does Denise Stoner do interviews? She would a great addition to the conversation.

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[Gene Steinberg]

Denise was already on The Paracast with Kathleen a few years ago.

 

[Smoking Man]

I like Chris, and I, in general like the guests, and would rather hear about cases rather then a topic that often devolves into deeply flawed, often man hating, feminist laden identity politics, which I could easily, very easily, (I've been studying gender and identity politics for years) dismantle in a post here as a broader non paranormal related topic, but really, it's gotten quite tiresome to see this stuff infect every corner of life, and public life. I have no doubt there are a disproportionate amount of oddballs in this field along with crusty old dudes from a bygone era who might have some unsavory opinions. It's ironic the show has a no politics stance (which I am fine with), but identity politics/feminism etc, is some of the most heated, touchy, and political of topics in public discourse right now.

Erika seems like a nice lady and likely has some interesting things to talk about in regards to UFO's which I would love to hear more of, but multiple times the subject of gender has come up instead, and it's a massive turn off. Again, I would love to hear about actual cases, their thoughts on the actual phenomena, etc. Chase especially has a lot to contribute given her field experience, and Kathleen has done some excellent work in abductions and contact related stuff, in fact I got to meet her once in Exeter, NH for the local UFO festival, and she was a lovely lady with some important insights. I welcome their input here on these subjects, and hope maybe we can hear more about that content. I say all this as a millennial aged person mind you.

 

[marduk]

I'm a white guy, each day I go about my business without trying to harm anyone and minding my own business.

Meanwhile CNN and the BBC are trying to tell me I'm the reason for all this misery for women, imigrants, blacks, homosexuals, transexuals and Muslims.

Somethings not quite right here.

Not you.

The system that you are blind to.

Because you can choose to be blind to it conveniently because it benefits you without you having to acknowledge it.

You're intelligent. Inform yourself.

 

[Randall]

Fantastic gesture by Gene and Chris on behalf of the field. It makes me proud to be a part of The Paracast and to be networking with them. Thank you .

FWIW I think women have as much opportunity to contribute to the field of ufology as anyone else. That's because there's no regulation of the field that says who can and who cannot participate. If you don't like MUFON start your own organization and run it the way you think it should be run. Then you can compete with all the other groups who think they know what's best. I did that. It costs next to nothing to get started and so what if nobody pays any attention to you. Half the world has still never heard of MUFON or NICAP or NARCAP or USI or BUFORA or IYAUGAH ( Insert Yet Another Ufology Group Acronym Here ).

One of the toughest lessons for me was that when I formulated USI, I figured it was such a great way to do things that people interested in ufology would naturally gravitate toward it, but I learned that the reality is that rather than wanting to cooperate in a free manner to help each other participate at our full potential, everyone wants to claim their little piece of territory and defend it against everyone else. It's a sad state of affairs and what's worse is that I keep seeing everyone rehashing the same old issues over and over again rather than participating in the solution.

I think that in reality few people really want a solution unless it's their own because in their mind everybody else's solution is inferior, or they like being the big fish in their little pond. And I'm just as guilty. But at least from what I can tell, I've actually thought it through more than most others ( including MUFON ), and I value every member of USI who has signed up and is lending support to the cause, even if it's been moral support rather than donations or contributions. Our group's popularity status has never been the point anyway. It's been the same as the Paracast, to separate the signal from the noise.

Besides that, no UFO interest group is taken seriously by skeptics or the scientific community. At best they're seen as social clubs for pseudoscience and nonsense. Because of this I've almost folded USI on more than one occasion. But every time I'm tempted, I keep it on life support anyway because maybe someday some good volunteers will come along to help expand the website, or some members will pull-off something amazing on their own, or someone out there with some real funding will come along and sponsor it so that we can help members with great ideas get things done quicker ( e.g. Chris' SLV Camera Project ).

I'm now in my 50th year of interest in the subject of UFOs and during that time all they've become is more obscure. Social media that once showed promise as a networking/investigative tool has been warped into a smoke screen that those with the real power and information hide behind while the ufology community squabbles amongst itself. The best group of cases are still the classic cases where official Air Force investigations were done. Those of us who have done their homework or seen a UFO ourselves don't need convincing, and it seems pointless to me to continue trying to convince the skeptics and non-believers.

Very few serious ufologists investigate anymore. Most are more like PR people, attempting to provide better quality info and steer people in the right direction. But how long can that go on for? The Post-Modern Era in Ufology is now less than a decade away, and if the rate of obscurity continues it will be more of a Dark Age than an age of Enlightenment. Is it too late for those who really want the truth to pull together instead of jealously guarding their own little patch of turf? Is it so sad that the only way to unite the crowd is to be able to offer them money or a spotlight for their egos to bask in?

 

[Jimi]

Great show, many thanks to all involved.

Thank you so much Chris for asking my question - my first ever one on the show

I'd have loved to have heard our guests' feedback on the work of David Jacobs. It seems that he has few supporters in the field amongst serious researchers. That being the case I wonder why he continues to make appearances as a speaker and contributor at events / shows.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Kathleen has already weighed in on the work of Jacobs in past interviews.

Jacobs is quite controversial among Paracast listeners. Just check the forums — or maybe not!

 

[matthew1977]

Great show, many thanks to all involved.

Thank you so much Chris for asking my question - my first ever one on the show

I'd have loved to have heard our guests' feedback on the work of David Jacobs. It seems that he has few supporters in the field amongst serious researchers. That being the case I wonder why he continues to make appearances as a speaker and contributor at events / shows.

I'm no Kathleen Marden but here is my 2 cents...What I find rather interesting about Dr. Jacobs theory that humans are training Hu-breds to grocery shop (insert other errands here) etc.. that when asked which other researchers come the same conclusion he can only cite deceased researchers who cannot validate his point of view (i.e. Budd Hopkins). One would think of the many great abduction (hypnosis) researchers (still with us) others would be able to substantiate his view.

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[SheaOlmsford]

I got as far as Chris' opening sexist monalogue before switching off. Do you know how equality works? It means men and women having assumed equal abilities. That rant about how women were better investigators than men is... sexist against men.

Uggghhh. There are no barriers for women, none. They are protected by law to have equal opportunities.

No but wait they are subject to all of this societal bias and not taken seriously..
And so are ... guess who....
Men!

Men are told they mansplain and have no empathy and think with their you know what's etc. We no complain!

The gender card is the same as the race card. Stop hiding behind it and blaming it for your lack of achievement. Everyone is subjected to racial and gender bias, white men are not exempt. The difference with white men... they have no minority bias card to play so they get on with taking personal responsibility for their results and stop blaming those around them.

Judging another individual based on their look or gender is part of the human condition and a trait bread into us by eons of evolution. It must have been advantageous to surival as it's endemic. It's not evil, its nature and we are all subject to it in varying degrees of awareness.

Can we get some more paranormal please next week because political correctness is so 2000 and late and load of hypocritical BS

I honestly do not understand this at all. Are you saying that minority groups like gay men are NOT oppressed in any way? Are you saying that anyone who creates a group to gain more equal treatment is bad? Are you saying that white Christian heterosexual males don't have an easier time than people of various colors? Just what is your point?

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I'm a white guy, each day I go about my business without trying to harm anyone and minding my own business.

Meanwhile CNN and the BBC are trying to tell me I'm the reason for all this misery for women, imigrants, blacks, homosexuals, transexuals and Muslims.

Somethings not quite right here.

I am sorry that you are taking it personally as referring specifically to YOU. But if you would like to know what it is like to be gay, for example, wear a tee-shirt for a week that says "I AM PROUD TO BE GAY". Then report back in a week, if you aren't in a hospital bed. But this may not be a good example because gay guys are put down by EVERYONE of different races and religions. We are the only safe scapegoat left.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Great show, many thanks to all involved.

Thank you so much Chris for asking my question - my first ever one on the show

I'd have loved to have heard our guests' feedback on the work of David Jacobs. It seems that he has few supporters in the field amongst serious researchers. That being the case I wonder why he continues to make appearances as a speaker and contributor at events / shows.

I could be wrong Jimi but I'm almost certain you've had questions asked by Chris before? Not that it matters a jot - I remember getting a kick first time one of my questions was asked! This show is hands-down the best for audience participation.

 

[Burnt State]

I have no doubt there are a disproportionate amount of oddballs in this field along with crusty old dudes from a bygone era who might have some unsavory opinions. It's ironic the show has a no politics stance (which I am fine with), but identity politics/feminism etc, is some of the most heated, touchy, and political of topics in public discourse right now.

yes you are right about that whole old crusty dude thing like that Greer clown...the world is littered with straight white supremacist patriarchal capitalist attitudes that are trapped in a bygone era. Identity politics is so old school 1980's etc. Really there's nothing touchy about equity issues except for those who would deny such obvious realities of oppression in western culture. Why else would the rate of sexual assault of women in North America be 1/3 and remain the most unreported crime in our culture? And what's even sadder is that the majority of these assaults are done by men known to these women. So I'd say there's just a lot of self-denial going on that needs some stronger self-reflection. Apparently male privilege has been blind to the experience of what it means to be a woman in a man's world for a really, really long time still. But it's good to know that some men are changing and learning new ways to be masculine.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

The point is that by en large white males are not surpressing anyone.

(Now there will be anecdotes and stories of white men being racists or misogynistic etc I'm talking the general rule)

Most white men are like me. They are not racists or homophobes or women haters. They do not go out of their way to limit other people's opportunites

This "wo is me" attitude of so called minority groups is an expression of the privelidged generation who want success for no input. Spoilt child syndrome in other words.

These people can't understand why they are not getting their own way on everything and not having everyone tip toe around them on eggshells watching everything they say.

So what is the outcry if there is not mainly women at the top of Ufology? obviously it's the men actively surprising them. No, it's not. The women need to do better if they want to be recognised as the best in field.

If your looking for evidence of white male surpression you will find it in the lack of talent and hardwork of the people saying it.

There are no barriers in society and the law enforces this. See barrack Obama for black president, openly gay sports stars, women country heads etc etc

If your good enough, the cream and talent will rise to the top and being a woman or a gay will not stop your ascent.

Men and women have evolved through eons to have different strengths and play different roles in social groups. It's called science bishes! Naturally more men will be present in tasks that involve going out and finding something. E.g Ufology. Men are more task orientated. Of course women can do it, but men are more likely to be there in higher numbers because they are naturally more likely to be suited to the task in hand.

See a book called 'why men earn more' by Warren farrel.

So let's all stop blaming men for doing what they are good at.

 

[Burnt State]

The point is that ....let's all stop blaming men for doing what they are good at.

you mean that of course in recognizing the advantage and privilege they have had for generations upon generations while all the disenfranchised were treated like cattle and property. The effects of intergenerational trauma from slavery, aboriginal genocide, forced sex, forced stetilization etc. will not simply wear off because new laws are in place. The enforcement of such laws and the belief in and true practices of the principles of equity will take many generations still to create the fair and even playing field we all want to see. To get there some will have to give up their privilege afforded them by upper management especially when they already are the homogenous upper management. Just look at studies regarding job applications and who gets called back more frequently: it's not the minority cream but the white guy with the prison record who often stands a better chance. Pretending like bias and discrimination is gone is to have your head in the sand or to be only able to look in the mirror and see oneself.

I read an interesting boom called Race Traitor written by a white man a ways back where he made the astute observation that the only time a white person will know racism truly is if they are married to someone who is non white or have someone non white living in their home. As that is my story I fully understand his point. What I don't get is that so many men are actually married to women and yet they don't often see one of the oldest oppressions still at work today in our society be it in areas of employment or rape culture.

 

[marduk]

yes you are right about that whole old crusty dude thing like that Greer clown...the world is littered with straight white supremacist patriarchal capitalist attitudes that are trapped in a bygone era. Identity politics is so old school 1980's etc. Really there's nothing touchy about equity issues except for those who would deny such obvious realities of oppression in western culture. Why else would the rate of sexual assault of women in North America be 1/3 and remain the most unreported crime in our culture? And what's even sadder is that the majority of these assaults are done by men known to these women. So I'd say there's just a lot of self-denial going on that needs some stronger self-reflection. Apparently male privilege has been blind to the experience of what it means to be a woman in a man's world for a really, really long time still. But it's good to know that some men are changing and learning new ways to be masculine.

What's basically going on is that some folks like me who have systematic privilege are calling it out for what it is.

And other folks who have systematic privilege either don't like to admit it (because of their ego they pat solely themselves on the back for their success) or they feel threatened (because they know they wouldn't be as successful on a level playing ground).

Level playing grounds make people compete fairly, and get stronger. Power differentials allow those in power to become weak, and those without to have to get far stronger than they should have to.

Which isn't good for anybody, because that's how revolutions happen.

 

[marduk]

The point is that by en large white males are not surpressing anyone.

(Now there will be anecdotes and stories of white men being racists or misogynistic etc I'm talking the general rule)

Most white men are like me. They are not racists or homophobes or women haters. They do not go out of their way to limit other people's opportunites

This "wo is me" attitude of so called minority groups is an expression of the privelidged generation who want success for no input. Spoilt child syndrome in other words.

These people can't understand why they are not getting their own way on everything and not having everyone tip toe around them on eggshells watching everything they say.

So what is the outcry if there is not mainly women at the top of Ufology? obviously it's the men actively surprising them. No, it's not. The women need to do better if they want to be recognised as the best in field.

If your looking for evidence of white male surpression you will find it in the lack of talent and hardwork of the people saying it.

There are no barriers in society and the law enforces this. See barrack Obama for black president, openly gay sports stars, women country heads etc etc

If your good enough, the cream and talent will rise to the top and being a woman or a gay will not stop your ascent.

Men and women have evolved through eons to have different strengths and play different roles in social groups. It's called science bishes! Naturally more men will be present in tasks that involve going out and finding something. E.g Ufology. Men are more task orientated. Of course women can do it, but men are more likely to be there in higher numbers because they are naturally more likely to be suited to the task in hand.

See a book called 'why men earn more' by Warren farrel.

So let's all stop blaming men for doing what they are good at.

Funny.

The only one saying woe is me here is you.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

What's basically going on is that some folks like me who have systematic privilege are calling it out for what it is.

And other folks who have systematic privilege either don't like to admit it (because of their ego they pat solely themselves on the back for their success) or they feel threatened (because they know they wouldn't be as successful on a level playing ground).

Level playing grounds make people compete fairly, and get stronger. Power differentials allow those in power to become weak, and those without to have to get far stronger than they should have to.

Which isn't good for anybody, because that's how revolutions happen.

If your talking about socio economic privilege e.g. if you are born into money and certain social circles then you are more likely to be in the upper end of the systems that govern our society. E.g. finance or politics or law... then yes, you have my sympathy

If you think being born white in a middle or lower class family and that by being white or male gives you privelege then I'm sorry it's not something I can see evidence of. They have to wade through the same cap as everyone else.

If your after a revolution focus on the oppressive system of fractional reserve banking, the influence of corporation's on politicians and political campaigns and the over reach and over funding of the military industrial complex. Your revolution is there and not in the average white male.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

you mean that of course in recognizing the advantage and privilege they have had for generations upon generations while all the disenfranchised were treated like cattle and property. The effects of intergenerational trauma from slavery, aboriginal genocide, forced sex, forced stetilization etc. will not simply wear off because new laws are in place. The enforcement of such laws and the belief in and true practices of the principles of equity will take many generations still to create the fair and even playing field we all want to see. To get there some will have to give up their privilege afforded them by upper management especially when they already are the homogenous upper management. Just look at studies regarding job applications and who gets called back more frequently: it's not the minority cream but the white guy with the prison record who often stands a better chance. Pretending like bias and discrimination is gone is to have your head in the sand or to be only able to look in the mirror and see oneself.

I read an interesting boom called Race Traitor written by a white man a ways back where he made the astute observation that the only time a white person will know racism truly is if they are married to someone who is non white or have someone non white living in their home. As that is my story I fully understand his point. What I don't get is that so many men are actually married to women and yet they don't often see one of the oldest oppressions still at work today in our society be it in areas of employment or rape culture.

So your saying that because previous generations of white people committed acts of racism and savagery that I am also somehow born with this trait?

Can you not see how hypocritical that is? It's exactly the same as judging a black guy I meet based on what black people before him did.

Should I be somehow walking around carrying the guilt of the actions of people I never met and had no dealings with and are all dead? If that's the case and we are all carrying on from the past there are a few other nations and people who have been empire builders who need to walk around with 24/7 historic guilt.

Stand up please, Italians, Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese and the latest empire builders ... America

 

[marduk]

If your talking about socio economic privilege e.g. if you are born into money and certain social circles then you are more likely to be in the upper end of the systems that govern our society. E.g. finance or politics or law... then yes, you have my sympathy

If you think being born white in a middle or lower class family and that by being white or male gives you privelege then I'm sorry it's not something I can see evidence of. They have to wade through the same cap as everyone else.

If your after a revolution focus on the oppressive system of fractional reserve banking, the influence of corporation's on politicians and political campaigns and the over reach and over funding of the military industrial complex. Your revolution is there and not in the average white male.

If you say you don't see evidence of it, all it proves is that you're not looking.

I have to assume it's on purpose, because google exists.

 

[Randall]

If you say you don't see evidence of it, all it proves is that you're not looking. I have to assume it's on purpose, because google exists.

Okay, but bias in favor of women exists too among certain groups of women and minorities who openly support the idea of them being chosen purely because of their gender or race. These are so-called "reverse discrimination" cases: Examples: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlg/vol341/1-36.pdf