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March 5, 2017 — Women's Roundtable with Erica Lukes, Chase Kloetzke and Kathleen Marden


I was struck by the disparity between Chase and Kathleen on the one hand, and Erica on the other, as to their perception of women's situation.
It may have to do with Chase and Kathleen being MUFON members and Erica not.
 
Overall, a disappointing show, though mostly no fault of the hosts. Gene opening the show with what one could perceive as a negative story about Coral Lorenzen was a bit tone deaf for the start of a women's round table episode and came off, ultimately, as a rather pointless anecdote. Chris ventured into some rather lengthy pontificating late in the show that bordered on some "mansplaining." Those quibbles aside, it's not surprising, though unfortunate, that Chase and Kathleen had little to say regarding any misogyny in the world of Ufology given that, apparently, neither wanted to be drawn into a more frank discussion that would have led to deeper criticisms of potential colleagues and their organization, MUFON, and therefore necessitate biting the hand that feeds. It was very disappointing and, I think, a missed opportunity to advance the cause of women in the field. Kathleen just wouldn't engage fully on the topic and was deftly political in most of her answers. Chase, however, clearly wants to live in her own bubble and ignore the reality of the challenges women face in Ufology. If the denigration and devaluing of women in Ufology is going to be successfully eliminated it will only be through open and honest discussions by, and between, both women and men. This, in my opinion, includes shining a light on the bad actors out there who behave ignorantly, unprofessionally and, in extreme cases, like psychos. I don't want to support or promote those people if I know their behavior towards women is abhorrent. The "adults in the room" should make a concerted effort to marginalize men like that. They're trapped in a prison of their own apparent upbringing and ignorance. No one will be able to change them but at the very least we don't have to support them. That kind of unacceptable behavior needs to be shut down immediately by anyone that encounters it or witnesses it.

I'm glad you had Erica on ATP and that you all addressed the lack of candor and acknowledgement of problems for women in Ufology by the other guests. I like Erica's participation on The Paracast. I think she adds an informed, professional and valuable perspective. Keep her on speed dial, Gene.


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I agree with many of Chris Johnsen's comments. The women associated with MUFON were never going to criticize that organization. They have risen too far up into MUFON to name names. The sad fact is ufology is still an Old Boy's Network. MUFON is certainly a part of that network. I frankly haven't seen them accomplish much.

MUFON likes to keep the information in a few hands at the top. They aren't into sharing. Maybe some of these women should break away and form their own group and do it the right way.
 
This may seem a bit "self-serving" but it is not. If you wanted a well rounded view of women in UFOlogy, and had anyone asked me I would have suggested my wife, Vicki C. Ecker, the founder of one of the most respected publications in UFOlogy, UFO Magazine. She could have told you of her experiences in the "field" going back to 1984. At that time the active women were her and Linda Howe ... period. Quite the boys club ...

Decker
 
This may seem a bit "self-serving" but it is not. If you wanted a well rounded view of women in UFOlogy, and had anyone asked me I would have suggested my wife, Vicki C. Ecker, the founder of one of the most respected publications in UFOlogy, UFO Magazine. She could have told you of her experiences in the "field" going back to 1984. At that time the active women were her and Linda Howe ... period. Quite the boys club ...

Decker
Yes! Gene, let's get working on a Women's Rountable Episode, Part II featuring Vicki Ecker, LMH and, say, Kathleen Marden's colleague Denise Stoner, for example. Also, have Erica Lukes as a guest host to lead the discussions.
 
Overall, a disappointing show, though mostly no fault of the hosts. Gene opening the show with what one could perceive as a negative story about Coral Lorenzen was a bit tone deaf for the start of a women's round table episode and came off, ultimately, as a rather pointless anecdote. Chris ventured into some rather lengthy pontificating late in the show that bordered on some "mansplaining." Those quibbles aside, it's not surprising, though unfortunate, that Chase and Kathleen had little to say regarding any misogyny in the world of Ufology given that, apparently, neither wanted to be drawn into a more frank discussion that would have led to deeper criticisms of potential colleagues and their organization, MUFON, and therefore necessitate biting the hand that feeds. It was very disappointing and, I think, a missed opportunity to advance the cause of women in the field. Kathleen just wouldn't engage fully on the topic and was deftly political in most of her answers. Chase, however, clearly wants to live in her own bubble and ignore the reality of the challenges women face in Ufology. If the denigration and devaluing of women in Ufology is going to be successfully eliminated it will only be through open and honest discussions by, and between, both women and men. This, in my opinion, includes shining a light on the bad actors out there who behave ignorantly, unprofessionally and, in extreme cases, like psychos. I don't want to support or promote those people if I know their behavior towards women is abhorrent. The "adults in the room" should make a concerted effort to marginalize men like that. They're trapped in a prison of their own apparent upbringing and ignorance. No one will be able to change them but at the very least we don't have to support them. That kind of unacceptable behavior needs to be shut down immediately by anyone that encounters it or witnesses it.

I'm glad you had Erica on ATP and that you all addressed the lack of candor and acknowledgement of problems for women in Ufology by the other guests. I like Erica's participation on The Paracast. I think she adds an informed, professional and valuable perspective. Keep her on speed dial, Gene.


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Thank you for the nice feedback. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!
 
Overall, a disappointing show, though mostly no fault of the hosts. Gene opening the show with what one could perceive as a negative story about Coral Lorenzen was a bit tone deaf for the start of a women's round table episode and came off, ultimately, as a rather pointless anecdote.
On the contrary. People look at the Lorenzens with rose colored glasses. The fact is that she was a nasty and vindictive person, and my encounter with her was not the only one that ended badly.

That she could hold this grudge for a decade is even more outrageous, all over the fact that I dared to summarize a report of hers in Fate magazine, in the same way I summarized hundreds of media reports about UFO and paranormal activity for my magazines and Jim Moseley's Saucer News over the years. She was the only one who complained that I dared to do that. The publishers of Fate never complained, never cared, and my limited encounters with Curt and Mary Fuller over the years were always friendly.

The point of the show was not to paint a positive or negative picture, but to be realistic. That's being realistic.
 
Yes! Gene, let's get working on a Women's Rountable Episode, Part II featuring Vicki Ecker, LMH and, say, Kathleen Marden's colleague Denise Stoner, for example. Also, have Erica Lukes as a guest host to lead the discussions.
This is actually a terrific idea. Erica will also guest co-host our upcoming interview with Leslie Kean on her new book. I'll put up a Question Bank thread for it before Monday.
 
This is actually a terrific idea. Erica will also guest co-host our upcoming interview with Leslie Kean on her new book. I'll put up a Question Bank thread for it before Monday.
Not surprising that Erica is guest co-hosting considering Chris' dismissive comments about Leslie in a recent ATP episode. Very appropriate and should make for a better conversation, given those circumstances. Are you planning on getting into and having a frank discussion with her about the recent Chilean Navy UFO video snafu? She bought into that one hook, line and sinker and it was ultimately debunked almost as fast as the Roswell slides. I heard her pre-debunked interview with Alejandro Rojas over at Open Minds back on January 9th, along with the CEFAA Dir. of International Affairs, Jose Lay but haven't seen much from her since it was shown to be an aircraft and NOT a UFO.
 
Overall, a disappointing show, though mostly no fault of the hosts. Gene opening the show with what one could perceive as a negative story about Coral Lorenzen was a bit tone deaf for the start of a women's round table episode and came off, ultimately, as a rather pointless anecdote. Chris ventured into some rather lengthy pontificating late in the show that bordered on some "mansplaining." Those quibbles aside, it's not surprising, though unfortunate, that Chase and Kathleen had little to say regarding any misogyny in the world of Ufology given that, apparently, neither wanted to be drawn into a more frank discussion that would have led to deeper criticisms of potential colleagues and their organization, MUFON, and therefore necessitate biting the hand that feeds. It was very disappointing and, I think, a missed opportunity to advance the cause of women in the field. Kathleen just wouldn't engage fully on the topic and was deftly political in most of her answers. Chase, however, clearly wants to live in her own bubble and ignore the reality of the challenges women face in Ufology. If the denigration and devaluing of women in Ufology is going to be successfully eliminated it will only be through open and honest discussions by, and between, both women and men. This, in my opinion, includes shining a light on the bad actors out there who behave ignorantly, unprofessionally and, in extreme cases, like psychos. I don't want to support or promote those people if I know their behavior towards women is abhorrent. The "adults in the room" should make a concerted effort to marginalize men like that. They're trapped in a prison of their own apparent upbringing and ignorance. No one will be able to change them but at the very least we don't have to support them. That kind of unacceptable behavior needs to be shut down immediately by anyone that encounters it or witnesses it.

I'm glad you had Erica on ATP and that you all addressed the lack of candor and acknowledgement of problems for women in Ufology by the other guests. I like Erica's participation on The Paracast. I think she adds an informed, professional and valuable perspective. Keep her on speed dial, Gene.


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I worked for a major corporation, a household name, for 30 years. In my little kingdom, I was told that women were being harassed sexually and treated condescendingly by some of the males. I wanted to get to the root of it all and wipe it out. I was not able to make a dent in it. Why? Because while some of the women would speak "off the record" none of them would officially support me in filing internal company complaints against such men with Labor Relations and Human Resources. I finally realized that the level of oppression was so DEEP that the women were too scared to stand before upper management and expose men who were often their superiors in the hierarchy of command. Another woman decided to crusade on these vulnerable womens' behalf, but without back up from the actual victims, she was shot down by upper-management. She was encouraged to find employment elsewhere and she did. She was the best person in my group! We lost 25 years of indepth history and knowledge when she left. Upper management crushed her because they did not want to accept that such harassment existed and found it easier to just consider her a "troublemaker". They were enabled by impacted women being afraid to speak up.

Why relate this? In a weird way, it might possibly fit the MUFON scenario, except that at MUFON women were often in charge and MIGHT HAVE simply not wanted to rock the boat for their privileged position in the organization. It is hard to mature an organization when people are too afraid to speak up. So how does an organization change? Very slowly with the retirement or death of the "old guard". I have met very few professional men in their late 20's and 30's who are sexist pigs in the traditional sense.
 
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On the contrary. People look at the Lorenzens with rose colored glasses. The fact is that she was a nasty and vindictive person, and my encounter with her was not the only one that ended badly.

That she could hold this grudge for a decade is even more outrageous, all over the fact that I dared to summarize a report of hers in Fate magazine, in the same way I summarized hundreds of media reports about UFO and paranormal activity for my magazines and Jim Moseley's Saucer News over the years. She was the only one who complained that I dared to do that. The publishers of Fate never complained, never cared, and my limited encounters with Curt and Mary Fuller over the years were always friendly.

The point of the show was not to paint a positive or negative picture, but to be realistic. That's being realistic.
I'm not saying it wasn't a story to be shared with the panel, at some point. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, it seemed an ill-advised choice to OPEN the very first Women's Roundtable episode with that kind of negative anecdote about a woman in Ufology without any relative context to have brought it up at that time. That story, if memory serves, also ended up being the only firsthand female-related experience you shared for the rest of the episode. I think you can do better in the next roundtable given your decades in this area.
 
I was struck by the disparity between Chase and Kathleen on the one hand, and Erica on the other, as to their perception of women's situation.
It may have to do with Chase and Kathleen being MUFON members and Erica not.
Yes, there are politics in all groups, large and small, casual and institutional. If you want change, you usually do not go to the top unless you can FORCE THEM to respond appropriately. The people that run a group often live in their own psychological bubble.
 
I'm not saying it wasn't a story to be shared with the panel, at some point. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, it seemed an ill-advised choice to OPEN the very first Women's Roundtable episode with that kind of negative anecdote about a woman in Ufology without any relative context to have brought it up at that time. That story, if memory serves, also ended up being the only firsthand female-related experience you shared for the rest of the episode. I think you can do better in the next roundtable given your decades in this area.
Gene will never agree, but when I listened to it all, I felt that his anecdote was putting the women present in their place and setting up the emotional tone for the round table. It was a very sour note, unless the intent of the entire episode was a biography of Coral Lorenzen. If not, who cares? I read her books back in the late 60's when I was a kid.

Let me put it into a different context. Not sure people will be able to empathize. Suppose you have a talk show and you wish to highlight the accomplishments of GAY men in our society. So you invite 4 current movers and shakers in the GAY community (A doctor, a physicist, psychiatrist, and Political Consultant). Then you start off the show by describing a GAY doctor or physicist or psychiatrist or political consultant who was very rude to you 25 years ago.....
 
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I worked for a major corporation, a household name, for 30 years. In my little kingdom, I was told that women were being harassed sexually and treated condescendingly by some of the males. I wanted to get to the root of it all and wipe it out. I was not able to make a dent in it. Why? Because while some of the women would speak "off the record" none of them would officially support me in filing internal company complaints against such men with Labor Relations and Human Resources. I finally realized that the level of oppression was so DEEP that the women were too scared to stand before upper management and expose men who were often their superiors in the hierarchy of command. Another woman decided to crusade on these vulnerable womens' behalf, but without back up from the actual victims, she was shot down by upper-management. She was encouraged to find employment elsewhere and she did. She was the best person in my group! We lost 25 years of indepth history and knowledge when she left.

Why relate this? In a weird way, it might possibly fit the MUFON scenario, except that at MUFON women were often in charge and simply did not want to rock the boat for their privileged position in the organization. It is hard to mature an organization when people are too afraid to speak up. So how does an organization change? Very slowly with the retirement or death of the "old guard". I have met very few professional men in their late 20's and 30's who are sexist pigs in the traditional sense.
I think you nailed it. I've worked in the music business for the past 25 years and the stories I've been told by female friends in the industry would make your skin crawl and blood boil. Rarely, if ever, were the men held to account for their actions, even when the harassed came forward to file a complaint. A rare few, in the most egregious cases, actually achieved vindication by suing the individual and their employer and walked away with hefty settlements. The behavior still exists in the industry, just as it does in society as a whole, but I do think, to your point, it's slowly getting better as those "dinosaurs" retire from the workplace. Still, it's demoralizing, as a member of society, when a much-publicized serial harasser get's elected to high office because people choose to minimize, normalize or simply ignore his behavior.
 
Yes! Gene, let's get working on a Women's Rountable Episode, Part II featuring Vicki Ecker, LMH and, say, Kathleen Marden's colleague Denise Stoner, for example. Also, have Erica Lukes as a guest host to lead the discussions.
You really need STRONG women to be on with LMH. She is a forceful speaker and will take up most of the air time unless the other guests are quite vocal and can claim some air time for themselves. I am not putting down LMH. I am just speaking from my experience of seeing her in action.
 
On the contrary. People look at the Lorenzens with rose colored glasses. The fact is that she was a nasty and vindictive person, and my encounter with her was not the only one that ended badly.

That she could hold this grudge for a decade is even more outrageous, all over the fact that I dared to summarize a report of hers in Fate magazine, in the same way I summarized hundreds of media reports about UFO and paranormal activity for my magazines and Jim Moseley's Saucer News over the years. She was the only one who complained that I dared to do that. The publishers of Fate never complained, never cared, and my limited encounters with Curt and Mary Fuller over the years were always friendly.

The point of the show was not to paint a positive or negative picture, but to be realistic. That's being realistic.
Seriously, Gene, I doubt most people alive now even know who Coral Lorenzen was. She was popular in the field when I was a kid. I just turned 65. She died 29 years ago. You might as well be concerned about the reputation of Kathleen Freeman, a character actor who appeared in a Jerry Lewis film once, and was in an episode of ALF and THE HOGAN FAMILY.
 
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I'm not saying it wasn't a story to be shared with the panel, at some point. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, it seemed an ill-advised choice to OPEN the very first Women's Roundtable episode with that kind of negative anecdote about a woman in Ufology without any relative context to have brought it up at that time. That story, if memory serves, also ended up being the only firsthand female-related experience you shared for the rest of the episode. I think you can do better in the next roundtable given your decades in this area.
It was the most notable one over the years. I have always been a supporter of equal opportunity for everyone, and never thought of people in the UFO field in terms of their genders, race, sexual preferences, etc. It was a non-issue, but this stood out.
 
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