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July 19th, 2009 - Christopher O'Brien
- Thread starter ondafritz
- Start date
Free episodes:
Blacknight
Seeker
IrishSeeker and ScottishDoug, I don't KNOW, of course, but if I were to speculate about why Ireland and Scotland don't have cattle mutilations it would have something to do with circumstances unique to the areas of the US which do. (We actually have cattle here in New Jersey and I've never heard of mutilations here either.) I start from the premise that cattle mutilations have nothing whatsoever to do with the supernatural or paranormal, and there's lots of evidence to that effect.
So, if cattle mutilations are some odd sort of government testing program that would explain it. Or, more likely, in my opinion, it has to do with the animals, especially insects, in those areas in which mutilations are reported. In any case, the absence of cattle mutilations throughout most of the world would seem to suggest, at the least, that it's driven by uniquely (albeit mundane) American midwest and southwest conditions.
So, if cattle mutilations are some odd sort of government testing program that would explain it. Or, more likely, in my opinion, it has to do with the animals, especially insects, in those areas in which mutilations are reported. In any case, the absence of cattle mutilations throughout most of the world would seem to suggest, at the least, that it's driven by uniquely (albeit mundane) American midwest and southwest conditions.
Jeff Crowell
Paranormal Annoyance
Just some suggestions/theories as to why it's happening in the American mid/southwest...
Low population density? They can conduct their "work" in moderate privacy.
Geographical benefits?
Geological benefits (we in the ghost hunting field suspect geological densities of materials, such as lime-stone, can fuel paranormal activity)?
Maybe they're looking for the Roswell UFO crash site?
Over all this was an excellent episode. I very much enjoyed it and am looking forward to Mr. O'Brien coming back often. I'm also plugging his website pretty hard.
J.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
low population density wouldnt really be a factor ireland,uk, scotland, wales, france and other countries have many small towns and villages with small farms with very low populations. If it was paranormal in nature i cant see why it doesnt occur in the countries i mentioned.
I Think all those materials you mentioned can be found in europe.
I Think all those materials you mentioned can be found in europe.
Drew UK
.
Population density
To put it in perspective -
The UK is roughly 95000 sq miles
Texas is roughly 270000 sq miles.
UK population 60 million
Texas population 23 million
I think theres plenty more places to hide over in the new world than the old world.
I do prefer to believe that mutilations are caused mainly by human and animal interactions than any other wider possibilities.
Maybe I get caught on a bit of military history, but wasn't it common practice in the middle ages to through rotten carcasses/cows under trebuchet at the enemy (especially during the crusades)? - Early biological warfare.
A cow/carcass would be an ideal biological containment unit in which to introduce bio-hazards - is not mutilations/helicopters not a modern upgrade to this capability?
And also, given this possibility - is it any surprise that the military would keep it confidential? The maximum efficiency of this type of weapon is to draw people towards it not away from it?
To put it in perspective -
The UK is roughly 95000 sq miles
Texas is roughly 270000 sq miles.
UK population 60 million
Texas population 23 million
I think theres plenty more places to hide over in the new world than the old world.
I do prefer to believe that mutilations are caused mainly by human and animal interactions than any other wider possibilities.
Maybe I get caught on a bit of military history, but wasn't it common practice in the middle ages to through rotten carcasses/cows under trebuchet at the enemy (especially during the crusades)? - Early biological warfare.
A cow/carcass would be an ideal biological containment unit in which to introduce bio-hazards - is not mutilations/helicopters not a modern upgrade to this capability?
And also, given this possibility - is it any surprise that the military would keep it confidential? The maximum efficiency of this type of weapon is to draw people towards it not away from it?
Double Nought Spy
May I please go back to the zoo now?
While it may be comforting to ascribe cattle mutilations and such things to human actions (I am as creeped out by them as anyone is), one must ignore an awful lot of evidence that is every bit as real as it is bizarre in order to do that. I am not comfortable with ignoring evidence. Yes, there is a lot of evidence that some mutes are done by humans, and plenty of evidence that some are the work of predators or scavengers, but the "high strangeness" cases like the ones O'Brien discussed in the interview are just not going to go away.
Also, since Chris mentioned Ray Stanford and someone posted a link to Greg Bishop's interviews with him, I wonder if anyone here knows where one can find some of those "thousands" of photos he kept talking about. I kept expecting Bishop to ask, but he seemed untroubled by the situation. Stanford had many interesting things to say, but I'm going to have to see some pretty astonishing photos before I put any faith in his claims. I tried googling, with little in the way of results. Given Stanford's vehement reaction to an honest (and in my opinion very reasonable) comment by Bishop's friend in the interview, I wonder how he would do under the tough questioning he'd likely get on the Paracast.
Also, since Chris mentioned Ray Stanford and someone posted a link to Greg Bishop's interviews with him, I wonder if anyone here knows where one can find some of those "thousands" of photos he kept talking about. I kept expecting Bishop to ask, but he seemed untroubled by the situation. Stanford had many interesting things to say, but I'm going to have to see some pretty astonishing photos before I put any faith in his claims. I tried googling, with little in the way of results. Given Stanford's vehement reaction to an honest (and in my opinion very reasonable) comment by Bishop's friend in the interview, I wonder how he would do under the tough questioning he'd likely get on the Paracast.
Gareth
Nothin' to see here
See the Ray Stanford thread that Jumpy made.
Unless you tell me what you are talking about I don't know what to say about your BS radar. I spoke at 1998 International MUFON in Denver, the recent Dulce Base Conference, Roswell, Rachael NV, Aztec, Show Me conference in MO, and others. I helped field produce and appeared on UFO Hunters in season 1—"Gateways" segment. For the past 5-6 years I have been working on/producing various video projects and getting involved in haunted site investigations around the country including the notorious "Sallie House" in KS, the Manteno State Hospital in IL and other sites in IN and AZ. Plus, I have been conducting low-key investigations back in the SLV, when activity levels warrant attention. I have been working with SLV resident/investigator Thomas Peay and my valley-wide network of skywatchers since leaving Colorado in 2002. There are several on-going projects and investigations currently in progress—including a intriguing encounter case from the end of June 09. Plus, I spent two years working with Ray Stanford getting his life story documented (in his own words). In other words I've been keeping focused and busy.
Double Nought Spy
May I please go back to the zoo now?
Thanks, Gareth. I thought I saw a link to such a thread, then couldn't find it. So I was not hallucinating after all. That's always good to know.
Brilliant show. Cattle mutilations scare the shit out of me if I had to be honest. But the archetype of the trickster reasserting itself - I LOVE that idea.
Perhaps in a monotheistic society, what once was the trickster becomes evil and nasty as it is relegated to the a polar opposition, godd vs evil. Thus there is a place for such archetypes in pluralistic, pantheistic society, which is more relativistic, regarding the archetype as neither good nor evil, but rather the ultimate bad joke. I think we are moving back (or forward) to this way of thinking (I hope), where not everything is good or bad.
What the archetype might be "doing" at the moment may be kind of like the hangover from a centuries of a good vs evil world view.
Perhaps
On another note, this Ray Stanford guy sounds really interesting. HAVE HIM ON THE SHOW
Perhaps in a monotheistic society, what once was the trickster becomes evil and nasty as it is relegated to the a polar opposition, godd vs evil. Thus there is a place for such archetypes in pluralistic, pantheistic society, which is more relativistic, regarding the archetype as neither good nor evil, but rather the ultimate bad joke. I think we are moving back (or forward) to this way of thinking (I hope), where not everything is good or bad.
What the archetype might be "doing" at the moment may be kind of like the hangover from a centuries of a good vs evil world view.
Perhaps
On another note, this Ray Stanford guy sounds really interesting. HAVE HIM ON THE SHOW
After reading The Mysterious Valley, (TMV) I don't see how anybody cannot come to the conclusion that Chris is one of the best investigator's in the field today. That book is a must read for anybody interested in anomalous phenomena. He avoids coming to any conclusions and is clear when he is speculating on what a particular phenomenon might be.
A few of the negative comments come from people who don't know anything about him except through the interview on the Paracast. Kind of like the treatment Nancy Talbott received. Much of the criticim of Nancy came from folks who hadn't bothered to read her full reports; had never seen her lecture and had never met her.
COB's interesting description of paper thin "creatures" reminds me of the photos (and, allegedly, video) that RVDB took of that "gray" that looks cheesy/fake and two dimensional.
BTW, Nancy will be heading to Holland soon to spend some more time with Robbert. I spoke with her on the phone last week and she shared some interesting things about the case. She should have a new report up soon. And she WILL have two video cameras with her this time. One HD and one SD with night shot IR.
Go buy "The Mysterious Valley" now! Great read.
A few of the negative comments come from people who don't know anything about him except through the interview on the Paracast. Kind of like the treatment Nancy Talbott received. Much of the criticim of Nancy came from folks who hadn't bothered to read her full reports; had never seen her lecture and had never met her.
COB's interesting description of paper thin "creatures" reminds me of the photos (and, allegedly, video) that RVDB took of that "gray" that looks cheesy/fake and two dimensional.
BTW, Nancy will be heading to Holland soon to spend some more time with Robbert. I spoke with her on the phone last week and she shared some interesting things about the case. She should have a new report up soon. And she WILL have two video cameras with her this time. One HD and one SD with night shot IR.
Go buy "The Mysterious Valley" now! Great read.
spacebrother
Greg Bishop
I didn't ask about them because he already told me (off air) that he didn't want to share them publicly yet. Am I troubled by this? No. Why? Because I am not sure whether they could convince a wide public audience of anything. If these pictures were a real "smoking gun," someone would probably have been impressed enough with them to have made them public already. I might be wrong, and some of the photos might blow the whole field wide open, but I'm not troubled to get on it right away. Ray has promised to show me his photos when I visit him at some point in the future. He told me this on the show, if you remember.
You may also have noticed that I don't argue with people about most of their claims unless they're belligerent about it. My method is to make people explain themselves and let the audience decide if they're talking bullshit or not. I interviewed Richard Boylan (remember him?) years ago and he seemed arrogant, so I asked him more hardball questions and let him hang himself (according to people who read the interview.) No need to get all in his face about it. I find I get more out of people with gentle prodding than with a battering ram. Strangely, Boylan kept up a correspondence with me for a few years afterwords, so I guess he didn't take it personally.
I have known Chris for about eight years I think. He's always been honest and open to criticism. I don't think he's well-known because he's not willing to make new and ridiculous claims every week and spread them all over the internet, radio, and other media. He's open-minded but critical. If anyone here had seen and researched the things he's been looking at for many years, I think they would either go nuts, or adopt the intelligent attitude that he has.
He's also a great one for equivocating his statements, because many times that is all you can intelligently do with paranormal issues. This is also bad P.R. if you want to get "famous" in the UFO field. Some interviewers complain that I don't make definitive statements. They think (and they're unfortunately correct) that most people want hard answers.
If hundreds of multiple-witness sightings, radar evidence, physical effects and the reports of trained people are not accepted as good evidence for the gatekeepers of public opinion, what would be? Public acceptance of UFO "reality" is most likely not going to be due to the efforts of UFO researchers, I'm afraid.
Another issue I have a problem with is the "baby with the bathwater" attitude. For example, I have a basic disagreement with Robert Hastings on some points of his research. Does that mean that ALL of his research is thrown into question? Certainly not for me. A researcher's apparently honest approach and sincere attitude should temper any criticism of a person's work, unless they make continuously unfounded and/ or ridiculous statements. See Michael Salla's work for examples of this (in my opinion at least.)
Just because something seems ridiculous at first, doesn't mean we should drop it in the trash right away. People have told me some really strange things they've heard and experienced, but many don't insist that I believe them. The stories and research are data points to be stored for later. Sometimes that "later" never comes, and sometimes there are tantalizing bits of corroborating evidence that may lead to a tiny bit of understanding. The "maybe" box in your mind has to be pretty large.
The problem with this is that those who haven't shared your path, and the way that you came to your current opinions may think that you are nuts. In that case, it's better to shut up and pursue the subject for your own education. Chris is very good at walking that fine line between personal education and public revelation.
I have written about this at ufomystic, most recently in a piece called "Walk In Someone Else's Shoes":
Those who choose to study these subjects have a huge uphill battle on their hands if they decide to convince others that things outside of our current understanding do in fact exist and are worthy of scrutiny. That is probably why many who have been looking into paranormal mysteries are either never heard from or drop out of the public eye after awhile, and some of these individuals have privately expressed some of the more profound revelations about the subject.
Chris O'Brien is sticking his neck out and defending his research in a public forum, and he's not desperately concerned that people agree with him. That's noteworthy in itself.
Interviews I've done with Chris O'Brien:
7/27/06
3/27/05 (pt.1)
3/27/05 (pt.2)
1/23/05
Thanks for asking. As I previously stated, my SLV work from 1993-2002 was conducted with absolutely NO self-promotion, so my work was graced w/ the amount of notoriety and prestige it generated. Being a vocal proponent of exhausting all "closed-system" explanations for UFOs instead of a knee-jerk embrace of the ETH—plus my Biedny-style shin-kicking attitude— did not endure me to the UFO field. Chris who? Add a dash of intrigue surrounding my nosing around SLV locations that possibly didn't sit well w/ the PTB and I left in 2002 to remove myself from the Petrie dish— let the water settle. I had become the focus in the "Mysterious Valley," not the work. This ran counter to what I was attempting to accomplish sociologically plus, I don't want to piss anybody off, know what I mean?
"have you ever thought Chris, that there are some things around here that people just don't have a 'need-to-know?'" I may have found that this is a very special location, indeed, in more ways than than we can imagine. Before leaving in 2002 , I helped establish a monitoring network and Thomas Peay has cultivated on-the-ground relationships to insure that notable events occurring in the SLV continue to be investigated & documented. The SLV work is one thing… Stalking the Tricksters is another. I have no non-interference guidelines in place for my first "beyond" the mysterious valley project. I'm looking for a pimp. I'll pick up the phone and call anyone I feel can appreciate my thinking enough to help me spread this new definition/approach to the culture. I'm re-defining our most ancient archetype. I'm attempting to unify our focus examining "the paranormal." I've found my theory so I'm going to sell out, run around and find the data to support my conclusions and maybe start a Trickster cult. You know, become a shameless self-promoting trickster; say and do anything at anytime, play the wise-man, play the fool. Call a spade a spade and a heart a heart. Have fun and SHOCK people into looking at the world falling down around their ears—all in new and different wayz.
Do you have Steven Spielberg's or Oprah's or Bill Gates' cell number?
uhh… I posted this and then saw Greg's post so I had to add this: You are a bro, bro… thank you. And again, thank you so much for the Keel obit and the pic of you and John.
spacebrother
Greg Bishop
I have two, but that one's better. For my personal history. I'm happy and honored to have met Keel twice. Too bad I didn't take pictures with all the people I've met. It's nice to remember, and an inspiration to do more than sit around all day.
VERY good point! Add a dash of neutralized gender specificity and an exchange of "trickster" roles and voila, humans are supplying the the trickster with the technology the trickster needs to wake, shake and bake! And then some!
2012 indeed…
Double Nought Spy
May I please go back to the zoo now?
Hi Greg. Thanks for responding. I like your show and did not mean to sound critical of your approach. I am actually a fan of yours, and recommend Project Beta at every opportunity. As I said, Ray Stanford had many interesting things to say. I intend to hunt up a copy of his book about Socorro, since that is an episode that has been ill-treated over the years and Stanford seems to have some useful information about it. I had figured out that you had spoken with him about the photos "off the air."
But. Having said all that, I still think it would be appropriate to ask him in an interview why we don't see any of his amazing photos. He repeatedly used such phrases as "thousands of photos" on your show in the context of clear, unambiguous images of strange craft. He has apparently been making such claims for many years, and it is my opinion that it is time for interviewers to stop giving him a pass on the issue. These are pretty far out claims, and if he has been sitting on the kind of stuff he says he has, for decades, then I'd at least like to hear the reason why. As others have pointed out here, we have all heard these kinds of claims many times.
David Biedny
Paranormal Adept
I mentioned this on another thread, so I'll say it here as well...
Chris is going to try and help me arrange a visit to Stanford in the next month or so - if Stanford is agreeable - so I can get a look at his material, and hopefully document some of his stuff. I'll keep everyone posted, and thanks again to Mr. O'Brien for his invaluable assistance in trying to make this happen.
dB
Chris is going to try and help me arrange a visit to Stanford in the next month or so - if Stanford is agreeable - so I can get a look at his material, and hopefully document some of his stuff. I'll keep everyone posted, and thanks again to Mr. O'Brien for his invaluable assistance in trying to make this happen.
dB