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Jacques Vallee interview and Jesus of Nazareth



Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
Guys, if you are easily offended, do not watch those videos. If you have a sense of humour and you are difficult to offend (that's me, you'll be hard-pressed to offend me), you'll like those videos.

The poor kangaroos.

The last line of the Jim Jefferies video: I want to sell this video to Americans, I don't like my chances.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Eventually the crap dam should break under the credibility pressure... or will it ?

How far can blind faith run before the ridicule factor kicks in ? (A couple more layers on top of that cheese cake should do lol)
PopeBenedictTiara.jpg


Rationality and significant scientific discoveries have traditionally been threats to the static dictates of the church. The forced adjustments and perpetual apologetic discourse totally discredit the construct.
Galileo affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... took 400 years to recognize Galileo lol
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
I believe in Human Beings. I believe that the only hope humanity has comes from within ourselves. It will not be coming from some outside agency or pretending that it does.

I believe that the tales of gods are human fantasy or misinterpreted altered states of consciousness. I think that scientific materialism is the closet thing we have to a working model of the universe. I am for all practical purposes a secular humanist.

I think neuroscience holds the key to understanding human reality and not mystical revelation.

I just finished reading this thread which moved from interesting historical discussion to the downward spiral of believer vs. non-believer which aways gets ugly b/c we forget about how some people use belief to enhance their lives.

Historically, there us always a real person at the heart of any religion: Buddah, Siddhartha, & Allah started three religions that all still violently hate each other - a sad commentary of how people kill good ideas by making rules for others to follow lest they e eternally damned (& while you're alive we'll shame you, beat you & isolate you). William Blake in, "The Marriage of Heaven & Hell" that first came the poet who spoke of mysticism & transcendence, & then the priests showed up & stole the words of the poets &made rules & claimed power. In a nutshell we see how the church as protected pedophiles, denounced women's right to control their bodies. But this does not make the religion, or the belief bad. To each they're own - live in peace.

Recently my ten year old explained her thoughs on religion much to the disappointment of her grandmother, "believing in god is like believing in superstitions." I felt proud in that moment - one less peace of imposed guilt & fear of punishment accompanying low self-esteem fr her
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
(sorry - damn thick finger tips) for her to contend with. So my eight year posts the "no religious solicitation" sign on the mailbox to keep the springtime jehohvah's fom interrupting these fine days. At the same time I teach them both to respect other people's religious beliefs so long as they do not infringe on other people's freedoms or encourage violence against others.

The best thing a belief system offers like religion is compassion for other people. I don't think i'd ever approach any notion of my personal transformation without mindfulness practice & good Buddhism (no god there or punishment - just compassion for self & others). At the same time I use the stories of Jesus & Siddhartha to teach children values. Ironic, hey?

I can understand some of the outright dismissiveness towards invented, man-made religions who have some personnel that only seek power & control at the expense of others. It's probably best that believers & non-believers not engage each other if human respect is not a shared space.
 

Muadib

Paranormal Adept
Love Carlin, his stuff on abortion is the best, "Pro-life... You don't see many of these white anti-abortion women volunteering to have any black fetuses transplanted into their uteruses, do you? No, you don't see them adopting a whole lot of crack babies, do you? No, that might be something Christ would do. And, you won't see alot of these pro-life people dousing themselves in kerosene and lighting themselves on fire. You know, moraly committed religious people in South Vietnam knew how to stage a goddamn demonstration, didn't they?! They knew how to put on a f*cking protest. Light yourself on FIRE!! C'mon, you moral crusaders, let's see a little smoke. To match that fire in your belly."

Hilarious but he makes a great point. Most people I know who are involved in religion are close minded and miserable. Which seems to me to be the exact opposite of how they would act if they truly followed the teachings of Jesus. My personal feelings are that man does not and possibly can not understand the true nature of God, it's far beyond us. Just like in Ufology I have a problem with people who claim to have all the answers.
 

Bob Watson

Paranormal Adept
Can you imgine how many would be helped if the pope sold all his trapings?

Eventually the crap dam should break under the credibility pressure... or will it ?

How far can blind faith run before the ridicule factor kicks in ? (A couple more layers on top of that cheese cake should do lol)
PopeBenedictTiara.jpg


Rationality and significant scientific discoveries have traditionally been threats to the static dictates of the church. The forced adjustments and perpetual apologetic discourse totally discredit the construct.
Galileo affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... took 400 years to recognize Galileo lol
 

Muadib

Paranormal Adept
The whole Galileo affair is interesting, burning people at the stake for refusing to believe something the Church was teaching that was completely destroyed by science is pretty despicable. These days they seem to be willing to shift their perspectives to be more in line with scientific thinking, like when they said that belief in ET doesn't conflict with Catholic dogma. I applaud them for their apparent progress but you would really have to laugh if they hadn't learned their lesson after all this time.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
The whole Galileo affair is interesting, burning people at the stake for refusing to believe something the Church was teaching that was completely destroyed by science is pretty despicable. These days they seem to be willing to shift their perspectives to be more in line with scientific thinking, like when they said that belief in ET doesn't conflict with Catholic dogma. I applaud them for their apparent progress but you would really have to laugh if they hadn't learned their lesson after all this time.

Religions aren't supposed to progress... Thus the currently unwavering position concerning gay marriage. This is so messed up that you've got young earth creationists (YEC) who still think the earth is 6000 years old (scripture compatible lol) and a Vatican that believes in ET. If the Catholics/Christians keep on stretching the plate with more apologetic bandaid, the already discredited foundations will be blown to smithereens lol.
 

Goggs Mackay

Administrator
Staff member
I just finished reading this thread which moved from interesting historical discussion to the downward spiral of believer vs. non-believer which aways gets ugly b/c we forget about how some people use belief to enhance their lives.

Historically, there us always a real person at the heart of any religion: Buddah, Siddhartha, & Allah started three religions that all still violently hate each other - a sad commentary of how people kill good ideas by making rules for others to follow lest they e eternally damned (& while you're alive we'll shame you, beat you & isolate you). William Blake in, "The Marriage of Heaven & Hell" that first came the poet who spoke of mysticism & transcendence, & then the priests showed up & stole the words of the poets &made rules & claimed power. In a nutshell we see how the church as protected pedophiles, denounced women's right to control their bodies. But this does not make the religion, or the belief bad. To each they're own - live in peace.

Recently my ten year old explained her thoughs on religion much to the disappointment of her grandmother, "believing in god is like believing in superstitions." I felt proud in that moment - one less peace of imposed guilt & fear of punishment accompanying low self-esteem fr her


For me it isn't anything like Believer vs Non-believer. There is a certain type of believer, the type that is utterly convinced they believe in the true and real thing and anything else is below them in that sense. The relations I am most close to - in fact about to see 30mins from now - are very religious, well compared to me they say grace at the table and attend church weekly etc. I really love and like many, many people who are religious so religion alone is just not enough for me to judge someone.

As long as people aren't holier-than-thou and happy for others to think differently then I am A-OK with the believers. I must add however, that I consider myself to be the type of person who actually acts in a 'christian' way and often I do so even more than some 'religious' people. For instance, I have seen some homeless guy passed out on the sidewalk in town, it's really cold and they must be in danger of hypothermia etc. I see this situation and I will stop and help this guy up and ask if he needs to go to hospital etc. I have done this and watched endless other people walking by.

The point is, I see good, moral deeds, done by as many non-religious people as I do religious people. Being religious is neither an indicator of doing practical good or an indicator of not doing good. It is pretty irrelevant!
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
One of the things that started to eat away at me was the whole problem of special pleading. I started to ask myself, "Why did the religion I was born and raised up in and which dominated my culture and even national identity to a great extent, have any more validity or truthfulness behind it than any of the other religions being practiced on the planet?" It is hard to get past without a great deal of mental gymnastics, rationalization, and religious faith. Religious faith here being a belief held despite the lack of evidence or in the face of contrary evidence based on the perceived veracity of the source. God X is real but gods A,B, and C are all not because the believer holds a religious faith in god X but not A,B, or C. To declare god X the one and only true god all gods must be evaluated with equal rigor. Just attempting to engage in that exercise led me to conclusion that all gods (supernatural non-human beings who require worship, obedience, and claim to be our creators) by virtue of their alleged natures (essentially transcendent) are restricted to the realm of the human imagination.
 

Muadib

Paranormal Adept
Religions aren't supposed to progress... Thus the currently unwavering position concerning gay marriage. This is so messed up that you've got young earth creationists (YEC) who still think the earth is 6000 years old (scripture compatible lol) and a Vatican that believes in ET. If the Catholics/Christians keep on stretching the plate with more apologetic bandaid, the already discredited foundations will be blown to smithereens lol.

I disagree, why not incorporate currently proven scientific beliefs into their dogma, the theory of evolution, for example, has pretty much been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point so I think they would lose more credibility trying to deny it instead of just adapting their beliefs to be more in line with current scientific thinking, as the majority of Catholics and Christians have done. When you talk about the idiots who believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, you're talking about a minority of extreme fundamentalists who have an unwavering belief in the literal interpretation of scripture. Personally (I'm not religious) I have more respect for religious people who are willing to admit that they may have, at some point, gotten certain things wrong, as opposed to trying to convince the rest of the world that certain scientifically proven theories are invalid.
 

Kim323

Paranormal Maven
Muadib, you are correct. The history of the Catholic Church, and of the many churches comprising Christianity over centuries and centuries is one of internal struggle through a host of things, many of them scientific, as well as theological.

The core message and doctrine of Christianity is at the heart of Christian churches, and despite struggle over fine points of doctrine that core remains a common one. And change in the Christian churches on many, many things, including, as is the topic of this thread, science, is a fascinating story that deserves to be studied and read about.

Here are three links that are interesting:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/2009/booklet_astrobiology_17.pdf

Vatican Holds Conference on Extraterrestrial Life

Amazon.com: The Heavens Proclaim: Astronomy and the Vatican (9781592766451): Vatican Observatory Publications, Guy Consolmagno, S.J.: Books

The history of the Christian churches is fascinating, and must be actually studied to be enjoyed and appreciated. There is no substitute for reading some superb books on the history of Christianity, and I have recommended them elsewhere. Kim:)
 

Goggs Mackay

Administrator
Staff member
Trained, that is precisely how I came to my current view of religions too. Pretty much syllable for syllable.

I find it hard to think only one religion on earth is the real thing so because they cannot all be true at the same time, being mutually exclusive, I can only therefore think they are all man-made.
There may be all the truths in the world within the pages of various holy books but for me that is irrelevant and the only thing that really counts is whether there is anything supernatural or direct-from-god to any religion or not. You don't need to believe in a resurrected Jesus etc to act in the way the bible teaches. I consider myself very christian in my morality and willingness to forgive, turn the other cheek and generally act in a way that helps rather than hinders. It is really that simple for me - so as much as there are things in holy books that are no doubt good, well motivated from the right reasons and welcome in society, for me there is zero reason to believe in a made-up god or prophet to live that way!

I try not to make generalisations about people of any group including religious people but I'd admit that sometimes it pops out if I am being hasty. I have genuinely found little difference in the attributes of any one person based on whether they claim to be religious or not. I certainly don't assume someone is actually good in deed because they attend church and I similarly don't assume someone is not good in deed because they do not attend church - if you get my meaning!

I have met very few, if any, letter-of-the-bible types, I really don't know how I would handle someone who thinks the earth is around 6000 years old. I equate that to a severe mental illness in that it is basically believing in fairy tales - no worse, no better and of course the age-old religious get-out clause stand-by answer is that someone has 'faith' which is just a way of saying that you believe something with zero evidence or because you were told it was true, which is really no way to live.
Having said that, most of us take many things in our lives on faith but it is of a different kind to religious faith. For example, someone could tell me the average surface temperature of the planet mercury is x deg C and I would rely on the fact that someone, somewhere has measured that temp. I am never going to go measure it myself but the fact remains that not only could I check that temp if I was so inclined but probably other people have done that too.
 

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