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Jacques Vallee interview and Jesus of Nazareth



trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
I believe in Human Beings. I believe that the only hope humanity has comes from within ourselves. It will not be coming from some outside agency or pretending that it does.

I believe that the tales of gods are human fantasy or misinterpreted altered states of consciousness. I think that scientific materialism is the closet thing we have to a working model of the universe. I am for all practical purposes a secular humanist.

I think neuroscience holds the key to understanding human reality and not mystical revelation.
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
Kim, you seem to be making mountains out of molehills. You need to relax a little. I have not seen any inflammatory statements directed towards religion. If you interpret criticism as attacks, it's unfortunate, but nothing can be done about that. No one is breaking any rules here, although this thread seems to be headed in a similar direction that the other Jesus thread went. I don't want to have to close another thread.

Not everyone will have the same opinion about religion or politics - we have to be able to discuss them without getting personally offended.
 

Kim323

Paranormal Maven
What is it specifically, and I stress that word, is it within ourselves that is the hope for humanity. I don't disagree, just what exactly it is within us that comprises that hope?

The altered states of consciousness you mention as being misinterpreted, where do they come from? Within us?

What causes these altered states? Substances? Just don't understand.

Are these altered states a product of our neurochemistry? In what way will neuroscience be the solution for/hope for/understanding human reality?

Scientific materialism/secular humanism: do you then discount anything "mystical"or revelatory?

How do we more realistically tell the difference between the neurochemistry that creates "fantasy" and the neuronal firings that make "reality"? I mean, if a person runs naked down the street saying aliens are chasing him, I don't mean that, where a statistical judgement can be pretty much relied on.

Use of quotes is to denote a quote, not to be sarcastic or necessarily disagree.
 

Digital Trickster

Paranormal Maven
Kim, you seem to be making mountains out of molehills. You need to relax a little. I have not seen any inflammatory statements directed towards religion. If you interpret criticism as attacks, it's unfortunate, but nothing can be done about that. No one is breaking any rules here, although this thread seems to be headed in a similar direction that the other Jesus thread went. I don't want to have to close another thread.

Not everyone will have the same opinion about religion or politics - we have to be able to discuss them without getting personally offended.
Yeah listen to Angel and take a big deep breath :)
 

Kim323

Paranormal Maven
You're right, Angelo. Point taken. I do get hot under the collar when people are lumped into one pot, and because Christianity is guilty of some horrors its whole premise is ridiculed on the basis of conspiracy baloney (among other absurdities) at the council of Nicaea. I get frustrated further as a lover of history. I can't believe the level of, well, I'll leave the word unsaid, of the most basic history on which such absurdities are based. That it's reaching the state of the Jesus thread I won't deny. The only thing some (few) posters can say can be simply enumerated: 1. The supposedly "factual": "it's all a big conspiracy by Jesus and those stupid Christians.". 2. The supposedly "deep," and "insightful": "why didn't that stupid crazy Jesus, heir to that delusional book written by desert sheepherders, if he was so smart and powerful, see that that horrible religion he was purposefully founding, would trample women, children, whole cultures, civilizations, etc., under its cruel, heartless feet?" I attribute those quotes to no one in particular. They are mine. They are, however, an amalgam incorporating some pretty direct statements by some. To say that there have been no attacks on religion is being pretty naive. It's been open ridicule, predominately of Christianity. But I take your post to heart, Angelo.
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
sayjesus.jpg


Hahhhha haha hahaha hahahaaahhahhahhhahhahhhahhhahhahhahahahhahhah
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
Derision ?
No more than the healthy "this is bullshit" you will see applied anywhere in the modern narrative directed at such pathetic nonense as your jesus "story".

Its no more believable than billy meiers BS, and he had photos........


Your argumentum ad verecundiam, is as transparent as it is worthless..............

Although certain classes of argument from authority do on occasion constitute strong inductive arguments, arguments from authority are commonly used in a fallacious manner

In this case....... BS.........

Oh scholars this and scholars that....... the bottom line is no critical thinker can accept the whole born of a virgin , turned water to wine Bullshit, and thats what it clearly is Bullshit.

If a sad percentage of the population want to subscribe to such obvious bullshit , well......... that is indeed sad for mankinds collective intellectual score....

But dont expect the rest of us to be happy about being weighed down by the intellectually retarded minority......

Our species IS better than this .

The gingerbread house was documented in hansel and gretel, but that doesnt make it a real house.

Derision ? you betcha.

Before humanity can face the heavens above, it needs to throw off the shackles of its superstitious past, and that includes mindsets like kims.......

They give us nothing, You can do better humanity, better than this superstitious nonsense that only holds us back

Audience.... the choice is yours

Superstitious throwbacks or a brave new world
 

Kim323

Paranormal Maven
Mike is back! Clearly in all his glory, as evidenced by the stuff above, the name calling that he made the original Jesus thread devolve into. Welcome back, Mike, meet Ezechiel, who in my opinion trades in the same derision and historical absurdities. I think you brought up the Council of Nicaea, too, Mike.

Argumentum ad verecundiam indeed! A little knowledge is dangerous. I taught a mini-course once on all those argumentum ad things. Fascinating and fun. There's little you and Ezechiel can put past me, but both of you ridicule and deride scholarly endeavors and mock intellectual honesty. I would apply argumentum ad hominem as the clear method you two use, and of course there's reductio ad absurdum. Mike, you showoff, found that Latin somewhere and look at me, folks! I can use Latin and call Kim a retard again. But then, Kim was "leering at me as I burned." I taught Latin, Mike. And there's Mike's penultimate argumentation method: "haaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!" But I may not have spelled that right, Mike!:p His ultimate argumentation is name calling and derisive contempt when confronted with any facts or correction.

I wrote a sympathetic post in response to an experience Mike had, and provided two links to very scholarly research on sleep paralysis. He was sarcastic in reply. I ask you, Mike, how you can even leave open the barest, tiniest chance that an actual alien visited you? But you clearly have expressed doubt on the matter:
"or something else? I can't tell you"
"honest answer, I don't know"
"maybe of an abduction"

If you subscribe to such hardcore rationality as you profess, how can you even entertain that it may have been an abduction, as the quotes above more than imply?

And trained, you seem to have abandoned all the strict statements you made: you are "a secular humanist." "Neuroscience holds the key to understanding human reality and not mystical revelation." "I believe that the tales of gods are human fantasy or misinterpreted altered states of consciousness."

Yet regarding Mike's experience, of which he posted a photograph of a large sculpture which he created to show what he saw, you say:
"is this really about extraterrestrials or just some aspect of life on Earth that we do not yet understand?" "we are blind to a large part of the reality that we exist in." "I am not above entertaining the notion that some of these experiences are due to contact with something outside our sphere of perception." "there is more going on out there than we can casually observe." "are some of these kinds of experiences hints that something we can't perceive is minding the farm that we don't even know we're on?"

Really, now, you can't have it both ways. To show ridicule, contempt, and, yes, Mike, derision, to mock scholars and scholarly research, to proclaim your no holds barred and strictly rationalist and humanist stances, but to then make your method of discussion not facts but ridicule of the other person's beliefs, and all the more ironic because in none of my posts have I pushed my "Jesus thing," among other accusations.

Well, I suppose this will cause Angelo to close the thread. Something tells me he would not have closed it based just on Mike's posts above, but my post, clearly showing some facts that exhibit hypocrisy, will trigger the closing of it. So be it. I was actually relieved, as I said, that the Christianity and Jesus topic seemed to be drifting off the new posts list, but up it comes again. I just think flaws in the arguments certain posters have made is perfectly appropriate when their beliefs are duplicitous to say the least, and contempt is their chief method of discourse. Kim
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
I believe in Human Beings. I believe that the only hope humanity has comes from within ourselves. It will not be coming from some outside agency or pretending that it does.

I believe that the tales of gods are human fantasy or misinterpreted altered states of consciousness. I think that scientific materialism is the closet thing we have to a working model of the universe. I am for all practical purposes a secular humanist.

I think neuroscience holds the key to understanding human reality and not mystical revelation.

I'm almost tempted to say Halleluiah lmao
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
I have, if you have read my posts on this topic, have stayed on the topic, and HAVE NEVER PUSHED my "Jesus thing" on anybody. And, your "it does not compute" is a copout to my comments to you about history. If you believe what you say about the emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea, you comprise a membership of one in the field of reputable scholars. And no, I have said I taught for 35 years in a public school setting.

Belief ? Me ? At this point in history we can only speculate about the dynamics of what happened at Nicaea. Picking and chosing among millions of pages of scripture must have been a daunting task.

What we can do however is propose an opinion shaped by 1400 years of history which speak volumes about how the tortuous implementation of christianity affected the planet.
inquisition.gif
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
What is it specifically, and I stress that word, is it within ourselves that is the hope for humanity. I don't disagree, just what exactly it is within us that comprises that hope?

Reason and the empathy that healthy human beings feel for one another.

The altered states of consciousness you mention as being misinterpreted, where do they come from? Within us? What causes these altered states? Substances? Just don't understand.

Through the mistuning of human brain/mind system by chemical or physical means. Drugs, disease, and physical stress alone or in combination can create these states.

In what way will neuroscience be the solution for/hope for/understanding human reality?

Only through understanding how we perceive reality, can we have any hope of understanding ourselves and our positions in it.

Scientific materialism/secular humanism: do you then discount anything "mystical"or revelatory?

Revealed knowledge is historically inconsistent and unreliable. Would you not agree? When these things are viewed properly as products of the human mind itself and viewed in that context, as insights into our inner workings, they are more meaningful and useful.

How do we more realistically tell the difference between the neurochemistry that creates "fantasy" and the neuronal firings that make "reality"? I mean, if a person runs naked down the street saying aliens are chasing him, I don't mean that, where a statistical judgement can be pretty much relied on.

Do the aliens catch him? That would be a good indicator I would think.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
... you seem to have abandoned all the strict statements you made: you are "a secular humanist." "Neuroscience holds the key to understanding human reality and not mystical revelation." "I believe that the tales of gods are human fantasy or misinterpreted altered states of consciousness."

Yet regarding Mike's experience, of which he posted a photograph of a large sculpture which he created to show what he saw, you say:
"is this really about extraterrestrials or just some aspect of life on Earth that we do not yet understand?" "we are blind to a large part of the reality that we exist in." "I am not above entertaining the notion that some of these experiences are due to contact with something outside our sphere of perception." "there is more going on out there than we can casually observe." "are some of these kinds of experiences hints that something we can't perceive is minding the farm that we don't even know we're on?"

Really, now, you can't have it both ways.

I think I understand your confusion. When I talk about things outside of our sphere of perception I am talking about natural as opposed to supernatural things. X-Rays exist within the natural world but outside of our casual perception for example. Also, while I concede that things outside of our ability to detect may and probably do exist, I do not think that human beings can get a real handle on what those things actually are. I am highly suspicious of people or organizations that claim to have an understanding of these things, their motivations, their desires or requirements of human beings, and so forth, much less having any surety of their existence. I don't think Mike ever claimed much more than having experienced whatever happened to him. Also, I think I may have failed to communicate the whole problem of defining supernatural gods, gods that require our worship, etc., and how that makes discussing , that is communicating such things so difficult.
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
Great drinking game, everytime you hear the word nonsense you take a drink


god is an imaginary being..............

Whats funny, is if you take an asylum inmate who talks to an "imaginary" person , we know that is delusional behaviour.
But give that imaginary person the name "god" and suddenly they are sane ?
You wouldnt want the guy/gal driving the bus your kids take to school to have an imaginary friend called bob, who he/she "talks" to, asks advice of, and looks for "signs" from ....
But change bob to god, and since its a collective delusion its ok ?
Its insane, and here's another example of the insanity of this delusion
A man and his son stand on a hill watching the crusaders and saracens dismember and disembowel each other. The sone asks what are they fighting over
The answer
The name of god...... both sides believe in a one true god creator of the universe, but they slaughter each other over what to call "him".

Religion is the provence of delusional people, its a collective insanity, but being a collective insanity doesnt make it right. Its still insane


The scholars and historians of galileo's day said the earth was the centre of the universe and flat........
Being scholars didnt make them right.
The bible is clearly a work of fiction
god is an imaginary being.
Belief in imaginary beings and fiction as fact is delusional.
 
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