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How Silly is Climate Change Denial?

The claims about who's for/against AGW and why are irrelevant. The facts of the matter are the facts of the matter. When you have a theory that you must continually bend and shift and twist to make it work, you don't have a very good theory.
 
What you need to understand is that, because someone says something in a documentary doesn't make it so. Anyone can make a documentary, and you can prove anything by cherry picking the right evidence, taking things out of context, and so on and so forth. The fact of the matter is that the UN influences almost nobody, particularly in the U.S.

Of course, cherry picking evidence is nothing new. A certain 24/7 news channel does it all the time. One of the most notorious examples was this infamous "You didn't build that" comment from Obama ahead of the 2012 campaign. The Republicans built a whole segment at their convention about it, and it wasn't an attack on business or small business. If you read the sentences before that comment, it was about the roads and the bridges which the business owner certainly did not build. The city, county, state, and Federal government built the roads and bridges. It takes a village. That's what it was about. Indeed, the Obama speech actually praised businesses, but the people who perpetrated that lie think their audience consists of numbskulls who will believe anything they are told without realizing at least some of it isn't true.
 
What you need to understand is that, because someone says something in a documentary doesn't make it so. Anyone can make a documentary, and you can prove anything by cherry picking the right evidence, taking things out of context, and so on and so forth. The fact of the matter is that the UN influences almost nobody, particularly in the U.S.

Of course, cherry picking evidence is nothing new. A certain 24/7 news channel does it all the time. One of the most notorious examples was this infamous "You didn't build that" comment from Obama ahead of the 2012 campaign. The Republicans built a whole segment at their convention about it, and it wasn't an attack on business or small business. If you read the sentences before that comment, it was about the roads and the bridges which the business owner certainly did not build. The city, county, state, and Federal government built the roads and bridges. It takes a village. That's what it was about. Indeed, the Obama speech actually praised businesses, but the people who perpetrated that lie think their audience consists of numbskulls who will believe anything they are told without realizing at least some of it isn't true.

Can we leave Obama out of this, please? I think it's a really low tactic to try to play the game of equating being opposed to anthropomorphic climate change with opposition toward Obama.

Again, I ask you to look at what the alleged solution is. Because the solution is that the economic destruction of the developed world while third world countries who actually produce the most CO2 will be given a free pass to operate without any regulations. All industry will move to the third world countries where they can operate without restriction. Also, there is the proposed free passes for Industries who pay a fee to avoid having to follow restrictions. You do realize that, right? This whole thing is a scam to transfer wealth.
 
B - Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming

Yes, but only just.

BBC News - Q&A: Professor Phil Jones

“The problem is we don’t know what the climate is doing. We thought we knew 20 years ago. That led to some alarmist books – mine included – because it looked clear-cut, but it hasn’t happened,” Lovelock said.

“The climate is doing its usual tricks. There’s nothing much really happening yet. We were supposed to be halfway toward a frying world now,” he said.

“The world has not warmed up very much since the millennium. Twelve years is a reasonable time… it (the temperature) has stayed almost constant, whereas it should have been rising -- carbon dioxide is rising, no question about that,” he added.

'Gaia' scientist James Lovelock: I was 'alarmist' about climate change - World News

"Global warming was not as understood as we thought," said Zhaohua Wu, an assistant professor of meteorology at FSU.

Global warming not uniform around the globe: Some areas were recently cooling -- ScienceDaily
 
It's about cherry-picking evidence to prove a point. It's not just about Obama specifically. Sorry this concept eludes you.

As to those third-world countries, you do know that China is now taking more environmentally friendly moves, right?
 
The claims about who's for/against AGW and why are irrelevant. The facts of the matter are the facts of the matter. When you have a theory that you must continually bend and shift and twist to make it work, you don't have a very good theory.

Exactly. Anthropomorphic Global Warming/Climate Change is unfalsifiable, meaning that everything is used to prove it and nothing can disprove it. In science, we are supposed to outright reject any theory that is not potentially falsifiable. If it can never possibly be proven wrong then we should never accept it as being right.
 
It's about cherry-picking evidence to prove a point. It's not just about Obama specifically. Sorry this concept eludes you.

As to those third-world countries, you do know that China is now taking more environmentally friendly moves, right?

That's great, Gene but they are still, along with India, the worst offenders of CO2 production. And they will be allowed to continue without restrictions when this crap is finally pushed through.

The biggest cherry pickers is your side, Gene. You can go into business making pies at this point.
 
So then you work on urging the worst offenders to get their acts together, but you clean up your own act not to contribute to the problem. It's not a case of cherry-picking, but on looking at something and trying to do your best to control the environment. As these countries grow, you can bet they will do things that are environmentally safer. That's already starting to happen in China, but it won't change overnight.
 
Exactly. Anthropomorphic Global Warming/Climate Change is unfalsifiable, meaning that everything is used to prove it and nothing can disprove it. In science, we are supposed to outright reject any theory that is not potentially falsifiable. If it can never possibly be proven wrong then we should never accept it as being right.
Evidence can be interpreted in different ways. It doesn't mean the data is different. But you can also cherry pick the data that proves a point of view.
 

I posted a link to the full Jones/BBC interview above. The scientists who have based their reps on the AGW theory are not going to suddenly reverse, but the honest ones are walking back some of the ridiculous alarmist claims being made. As James Lovelock said, in another article I posted a link to, "We were supposed to be halfway toward a frying world now.” We aren't. There is no "runaway greenhouse effect," another phrase you don't hear anymore like "global warming." The AGW predictions have not come to pass, so now it's time to do the walking back while claiming it's still happening and it's man's fault and forget about the faulty predictions made a few years back that have been proved wrong and change some terminology and keep the "theory," with some adjustments, going. The believers are always going to believe, so you're fine.
 
Significant perspectives being offered here by a scientist who is savvy regarding it all. Below is Part 2 of the same interview linked to earlier. Sadly, this very scientific conversation is being muddied by politicians. This is very much a replay of the Tobacco Industry's criminality with nicotine. As Dr Suzuki says - the corporations have known the situation with industry's contribution to climate change since the mid 1990's - see the book 'Merchants of Doubt'. As he says, this is not an economic argument - though that is the way they have been able to frame the question - to great success.



What is very troubling is the actual destruction ('burning') of manuscripts that are pro-warming by the Canadian government. That is akin to what Bush was doing - when Global Warming was prohibited to be talked about by any government-paid scientist in the 00's. That's a bit of social history often forgotten. Canada's government is now doing this.

As Suzuki reminds us - scientists now refer to our time as the Anthropocene Epoch - when our species is a geological force, changing the physical, chemical and biological features of the planet on a geological scale and that includes climate. That is what scientists are seeing. There's no doubt that the planet is undergoing change at this time - and humanity is at the center of that change.

Book: "Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming"


TEXT: "Merchants of Doubt should finally put to rest the question of whether the science of climate change is settled. It is, and we ignore this message at our peril." - Elizabeth Kolbert

"Brilliantly reported andwritten with brutal clarity."-Huffington Post

Merchants of Doubt was one of the most talked-about climate change books of recent years, for reasons easy to understand: It tells the controversialstory of how a loose-knit group of high-level scientists and scientific advisers, with deep connections in politics and industry, ran effective campaigns to mislead the public and deny well-established scientific knowledge over four decades. The same individuals who claim the science of global warming is "not settled" have also denied the truth about studies linking smoking to lung cancer, coal smoke to acid rain, and CFCs to the ozone hole. "Doubt is our product," wrote one tobacco executive. These "experts" supplied it.
 
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Significant perspectives being offered here by a scientist who is savvy regarding it all. Below is Part 2 of the same interview linked to earlier. Sadly, this very scientific conversation is being muddied by politicians. This is very much a replay of the Tobacco Industry's criminality with nicotine. As Dr Suzuki says - the corporations have known the situation with industry's contribution to climate change since the mid 1990's - see the book 'Merchants of Doubt'. As he says, this is not an economic argument - though that is the way they have been able to frame the question - to great success.



What is very troubling is the actual destruction ('burning') of manuscripts that are pro-warming by the Canadian government. That is akin to what Bush was doing - when Global Warming was prohibited to be talked about by any government-paid scientist in the 00's. That's a bit of social history often forgotten. Canada's government is now doing this.

As Suzuki reminds us - scientists now refer to our time as the Anthropocene Epoch - when our species is a geological force, changing the physical, chemical and biological features of the planet on a geological scale and that includes climate. That is what scientists are seeing. There's no doubt that the planet is undergoing change at this time - and humanity is at the center of that change.

Book: "Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming"


TEXT: "Merchants of Doubt should finally put to rest the question of whether the science of climate change is settled. It is, and we ignore this message at our peril." - Elizabeth Kolbert

"Brilliantly reported andwritten with brutal clarity."-Huffington Post

Merchants of Doubt was one of the most talked-about climate change books of recent years, for reasons easy to understand: It tells the controversialstory of how a loose-knit group of high-level scientists and scientific advisers, with deep connections in politics and industry, ran effective campaigns to mislead the public and deny well-established scientific knowledge over four decades. The same individuals who claim the scienceof global warming is "not settled" have also denied the truth about studies linking smoking to lung cancer, coal smoke to acid rain, and CFCs to the ozone hole. "Doubt is our product," wrote one tobacco executive. These "experts" supplied it.


David Suzuki is a Zoologist. He is not trained in climate science and knows better than to shoot his mouth off on topics that lay outside of his expertise as a scientist. Then again, Suzuki is a self-described activist first and this explains his actions.

Sorry, but your scare tactics and your pleas to ignorance and bandwagon effect do not effect me anymore. Not to mention the notion that you are arguing for strong-arming anyone who disagrees with you is proof that your position is so very fragile that you must restort to threats and almost outright physical attacks in order to get your way.

Anthropomorphic Climate Change is a lie, a myth spread by greed and to gain the almighty dollar. It has now reached a cult like status.
 
David Suzuki is a Zoologist. He is not trained in climate science and knows better than to shoot his mouth off on topics that lay outside of his expertise as a scientist. Then again, Suzuki is a self-described activist first and this explains his actions.

He got his PhD in zoology - and worked as a geneticist. He is scientist capable of thinking through in other disciplines - more so than a lay person confronted with science in general can do. Are you a scientist? He is hardly 'shooting off his mouth' - he has considerable credentials behind him regarding his views on nature and the environment and is respected. You say that he should "not speak outside of his expertise as a scientist" - from that I am guessing you are not a scientist yourself. If you were you would understand the interdisciplinary nature of science - and that science studies straddle boundaries all the time.

Sorry, but your scare tactics and your pleas to ignorance and bandwagon effect do not effect me anymore.

What? I am not aware of doing any of this. I haven't even addressed you in a post. I am not concerned with 'effecting' you.

Not to mention the notion that you are arguing for strong-arming anyone who disagrees with you is proof that your position is so very fragile that you must restort to threats and almost outright physical attacks in order to get your way.

There is a huge disjunct here. You quoted my post - so it looks like you are addressing me - but I think you have confused me with someone else. I am far from strong-arming anyone, just posting information - and am hardly 'threatening' anyone, certainly not with 'physical attacks' to 'get my way'. Where in the world is all this coming from? A bit OTT. I think.

Anthropomorphic Climate Change is a lie, a myth spread by greed and to gain the almighty dollar. It has now reached a cult like status.

If science is a cult - sure. As for the money - you've got to ignore it - muddies the water. Anyone arguing money - or an economic slant - is going down a by-way. This is not an economic argument - that's the wrong frame.

Even a first year student in Human Geography knows that humans change where they live. Cities change the climate around them - cities in deserts with irrigation and swimming pools create humid environments - in the desert. Micro-climate changes have been observed for decades, centuries. This is not new stuff. No one is lying. What an odd thing to accuse.

Global change is not a far ways to go for the scientist in his thinking - given the intensity of industrialization across the planet. We have seen such clear evidence of micro-climate change - it doesn't take a lot to see global implications - which we are seeing in spades. You have a better idea? Other than: 'well, that's just what it does, all those cycles and stuff' - as some are fond of saying. It's because we know about all those 'cycles and stuff' - that we know we are in something very unique - with pretty good evidence as to why.

Why does the idea that humans are changing the climate create such opposition in you? We have changed the world locally for a very long time. Why does it have to be not to do with humans? For it not to do with humans is to exempt the human from it's position in the natural world like any other organism. Upon what basis do you exempt the human being from it's connectedness and responsibility within the natural web of existence?

I would recommend that you expand your scientific reading - and not listen to politicians. The Anthropocene Epoch comes from science out of many disciplines. It's describing what is being observed. Climate Change is but one part of that changing gestalt.

If it eases you to think it's a myth - very well - but the Pacific island nations that are having to relocate their populations to other countries because of rising sea levels do not see it as a myth. Changes are afoot - and it will be the municipalities who deal with the realities of a changing natural world that will 'weather' the changes. Like Suzuki says - it's not that the world will cease to exist - it will continue to exist, but on new terms, which humans will have to deal with. If we don't the consequences appear to be fairly clear.
 
He got his PhD in zoology - and worked as a geneticist. He is scientist capable of thinking through in other disciplines - more so than a lay person confronted with science in general can do. Are you a scientist? He is hardly 'shooting off his mouth' - he has considerable credentials behind him regarding his views on nature and the environment and is respected. You say that he should "not speak outside of his expertise as a scientist" - from that I am guessing you are not a scientist yourself. If you were you would understand the interdisciplinary nature of science - and that science studies straddle boundaries all the time.



What? I am not aware of doing any of this. I haven't even addressed you in a post. I am not concerned with 'effecting' you.



There is a huge disjunct here. You quoted my post - so it looks like you are addressing me - but I think you have confused me with someone else. I am far from strong-arming anyone, just posting information - and am hardly 'threatening' anyone, certainly not with 'physical attacks' to 'get my way'. Where in the world is all this coming from? A bit OTT. I think.



If science is a cult - sure. As for the money - you've got to ignore it - muddies the water. Anyone arguing money - or an economic slant - is going down a by-way. This is not an economic argument - that's the wrong frame.

Even a first year student in Human Geography knows that humans change where they live. Cities change the climate around them - cities in deserts with irrigation and swimming pools create humid environments - in the desert. Micro-climate changes have been observed for decades, centuries. This is not new stuff. No one is lying. What an odd thing to accuse.

Global change is not a far ways to go for the scientist in his thinking - given the intensity of industrialization across the planet. We have seen such clear evidence of micro-climate change - it doesn't take a lot to see global implications - which we are seeing in spades. You have a better idea? Other than: 'well, that's just what it does, all those cycles and stuff' - as some are fond of saying. It's because we know about all those 'cycles and stuff' - that we know we are in something very unique - with pretty good evidence as to why.

Why does the idea that humans are changing the climate create such opposition in you? We have changed the world locally for a very long time. Why does it have to be not to do with humans? For it not to do with humans is to exempt the human from it's position in the natural world like any other organism. Upon what basis do you exempt the human being from it's connectedness and responsibility within the natural web of existence?

I would recommend that you expand your scientific reading - and not listen to politicians. The Anthropocene Epoch comes from science out of many disciplines. It's describing what is being observed. Climate Change is but one part of that changing gestalt.

If it eases you to think it's a myth - very well - but the Pacific island nations that are having to relocate their populations to other countries because of rising sea levels do not see it as a myth. Changes are afoot - and it will be the municipalities who deal with the realities of a changing natural world that will 'weather' the changes. Like Suzuki says - it's not that the world will cease to exist - it will continue to exist, but on new terms, which humans will have to deal with. If we don't the consequences appear to be fairly clear.


Not you. Suzuki. He's overstepping his bounds. He is not qualified to give a scientific opinion on climate matters because he has no education or experience in such matters. I think you misunderstand something here. Anyone can share their opinion. However, one should really avoid giving a scientific opinion on a topic that one is not qualified to speak on. Suzuki is not qualified to give a scientific opinion on climate change. He can talk about Zoology all he wants because that's his education. However, if he wants to talk climate change he should never be presenting himself as an expert or be giving an expert opinion. It's not just Suzuki who does this. Lot of unqualified people are giving scientific opinion when they do not have the education or experience to do so. Another one who is guilty of this is Michio Kaku. Kaku has spoken out, presented himself as giving a scientific opinion on various subjects in fields he is uneducated on and has no experience with. Yes, he too too has tried to give a scientific opinion on climate change when has no qualification in climate science. Not only that but there was an incident a while back where a meteorologist was fed up with Kaku and called him out on his b.s. saying he doesn't know jack about climate science and shouldn't be presenting himself as an expert in this field.

I was addressing Suzuki's "strong arming" politicians who don't bend to his will. I was not refering to you. Suzuki is an activist first and foremost and he is a fanatic at that.
 
The believers are always going to believe, so you're fine.

That about sums it up. Countless hours of corporate television like the first video in this thread have made the believers immune to reason and evidence.

Notice how they respond to our science with every logical fallacy in the book; Non-Sequiturs, Ad Hominems, Appeals to Ridicule, et al., and robotically regurgitate the memes programed into them.

Some say it's not their fault. I say it is. Every person is given the choice whether to abandon critical thinking.
 
And you claim that believing that the energy companies want you to accept climate change as a human-created phenomenon to fatten profits is critical thinking? What about the reverse theory, that the energy companies are doing everything possible to debunk the climate change issue?
 
What "energy companies" are you talking about? If they are so important to climate fraud skepticism, you should be able to name the 10 largest.
 
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