Feb 20 2011 James Carrion

[trainedobserver]

An excellent show guys! This has been the best show in a while.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

It really was a great episode.
I can't say I disagree with him on much.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Gosh Angelo, I am a bit disappointed.

I found his mindset that the government is terribly interested in the toddling old collection of UFO buffs (and their real estate agent leader) to be just as unsupported as the flying saucer idea itself.
It was hilarious to hear his report on the "progress" of the STAR!!!!! team.
In my opinion, Carrion is just another side of the same tarnished, muddy and almost worthless coin.

Lance

I see what you mean with that Lance, but I still think he made some good points. I was more referring to the fact that he doesn't automatically conclude that UFOs are aliens. Although he can't prove what he says about the government being interested in UFOs, it makes more sense to me that they could be used to obscure work military aircraft than UFOs being alien visitors from another planet or whatever non-human beings people chose to think they are.

The STAR team thing is ridiculous, I agree.

 

[pininmefin]

james is full of it.it sounds like He didnt like the contract and or the situation so he took it on himself to "cornhole" it. You mean to tell me a buisness owner and former intell officer can't do a proper accounting job? the man has succesfully run a computer company and, up to this SIP project, mufon itself. once again it sounds like who ever is his "handler" pulled the chair out from under him when the music stoped.I can't believe the shows hosts just accepted everything at face value.(his face value). However he did touch on some truths about the SIP project. .Don't cry the blues when you" played the game" and got short shirted. the bottom line here is that in the" monkey circle jerk" , that was and seems to be currently going on in mufon, he became "disposable".However to be fair he has done some very good things for mufon. and I do not believe he embezzled anything. as I stated he got" hung out to dry" by those that always point the finger to the lowest common denominator.I think that this whole drama just shows how murky things get in this field.

 

[trainedobserver]

I found his mindset that the government is terribly interested in the toddling old collection of UFO buffs (and their real estate agent leader) to be just as unsupported as the flying saucer idea itself.

I think you missed his point. It isn't that they are interested in UFO buffs, they are exploiting the UFO phenomena and the interest in it for various purposes. If you have some doubt that this is happening I'd refer you to AFOSI's involvement with Paul Bennewitz and Nick Redfern's being put on the trail of Collins Elite by AFOSI. Also, it isn't the MUFON members as much as MUFON's public tools to report and track UFO sightings they would find that interesting.

 

[softbeard]

An excellent show guys! This has been the best show in a while.

Wow! I was very impressed. Excellent show. I think James' analogy of the scenario of the little greys abducting humans, who are then all abducted by the real aliens was spot on.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Wow! I was very impressed. Excellent show. I think James' analogy of the scenario of the little greys abducting humans, who are then all abducted by the real aliens was spot on.

It's actually not his - it's a scene from the X-Files.

 

[softbeard]

Why would the government turn to these infighting, inept, and silly buffs and pay them to do what they do naturally.

Maybe because it's convenient for them at the time to do so. Maybe some of these 'government-boys' aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer either. You can't know either way, but its plausible.

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

It's actually not his - it's a scene from the X-Files.

Hah! I know, but I think he presented the situation just right.

 

[trainedobserver]

And I DO have some doubt about the Bennewitz case but I am glad that for you the case (involving some of the most notorious hoaxers in the UFO game) is wholly proven.

Well, I guess until such time as you deem it appropriate to enlighten the rest of us on what your doubts are and why you have them, we'll just have to remain in the dark.

 

[plumbbob12]

Time for a reality check:I know James. Having been a neighbor of James C. in our little mountain valley of Bellvue, CO., I have to say from a personal viewpoint, that James is a stand-up guy, and have helped our community by getting it designated as a historical landmark to prevent Eminent Domain laws from knocking our old historic homes down, and finding a larger tax base for our county.

With that said, I cannot believe that he was not taken to task by stating that somehow the dark government was supplying money to MUFON’s star team so they can keep them from getting parts and pictures from some kind of downed black project aircraft. Does anyone else think that this is insane? Why would the government, assuming that they care at all about MUFON, which they don’t, give them money so that they could get the star teams out quicker in order to document secret projects, which they want to keep away from the general population? We need a dose of logic 101. This is the same kind of crazy logic that says that the government was involved in getting Area 51 known as a UFO facility in order to keep it secret. The very act of investigating Area 51 for UFO sightings brought the facility into the limelight. The world knew little to nothing about Area 51 until the UFO crazy’s started hanging out behind the fence, taking photos, and writing about the weird flights overhead. Lastly, as I have said in past post, the science of aerospace that can do the kind of things purported to be accomplished by UFO’s is the stuff of science fiction. To say, off the cuff, that UFO’s are only the interactions of advanced aircraft and witnesses who know no better is so far off the current understanding of principles of lift, and flight dynamics as to be laughable. This is where we desperately need a science advisor to chime in on these programs, and tell the layperson that 90 degree turns at mach 4 is impossible with our current understanding of Aerospace technology. The Carnot efficiency of a nuclear engine is close to only 60 percent, assuming that we can develop materials light enough to overcome lift issues. Chemical engines are 30-20%, and come no where close to what we need. While nuclear rocket engines were developed in the 1960’s, we never developed technology to overcome inertia, which would be required to make sharp angle turns, to say nothing of the huge technical challenges of developing an engine other than chemical.J.C’s take on the government using UFO tinfoil hat crowd to experiment on mind control, is also inane.

The science of marketing is more advanced than any UFO blog, or website, and costumer mind control has achieved an art form using physiological techniques developed by dumping millions into corporation’s efforts to change public option on everything from global warming, to unproven fat control diet plans. Having retired from the federal government, working for APHIS before it was a part of HLS. I can guarantee that the government cares nothing for the less than 1 percent UFO crowd. The To make a long story short, we need to stop buying into the bunk that the "dark government" has objects that can perform like the 1% of legitimate documented UFO’s. The scientist I worked with were a cross between "Bill Nye", and the chubby guy that lives in his mom’s basement. They only care about research grants, and getting published. There is no three letter government boogie-man, or woman, infiltrating UFO sites, and organizations, after our vast wealth of knee jerk knowledge. Yes, there is secret technology, but it is still in the realm of Newtonian physics, and modern physics, which, if one tracks the research at CERN, is no closer to developing a flying saucer than the man in the moon. While I do think that someone from another system is visiting, or has visited us in the past, I would bet the farm that it is less than one percent of the sightings reported. The rest fall into the "crazy basket". And that includes all the crazy ideas of WWII Germans flying saucers, government mind control, and men in black. I for one am too busying to try track down that one percent to be bothered with the other 99 percent goofiness.

 

[trainedobserver]

Well if having Ricard Doty and William Moore as key players doesn't give you the slightest pause then I am sure that you won't find my reservations of much worth either. Party on!

Your dismissive attitude aside. Didn't Doty work for AFOSI Lance, or am I just misinformed.

 

[Ron Collins]

I am just listening to this episode and I see a contradiction.

he says that he was too busy to pay much attention to the research/cases. In fact he cant remember or didn't know some facts Chris was asking him about. He reiterates that he was way to busy with the job of running MUFON to get too heavily involved in casework or investigations. Yet later (during the magic show analogy) he says he was able to observe it all and make a determination that the subject matter was ill representative of a real phenomenon. He went out of his way to say this was especially true while operating in the role of International Director.

So which is it? Too busy or patiently and objectively observing?

Personally, I think he is mainly talking about the 2 or 3 high profile cases he worked. I think he has let the circus that travels with Romanek to color his views on this. but that is just an opinion. I will listen to the rest later tonight and try to comment.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

First, I stripped your message of the Microsoft Office formatting. You could just as well write your message using the forum's text editor and do everything you need. The only problem is if your computer crashes or the browser crashes while writing that message, but with Word, you still need to save to preserve your words.

Second, Carrion's position at MUFON was a day job. I don't know if it represented a 40 hour week or more, but I expect it may have crimped his style when it comes to doing actual research.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

First, I stripped your message of the Microsoft Office formatting. You could just as well write your message using the forum's text editor and do everything you need. The only problem is if your computer crashes or the browser crashes while writing that message, but with Word, you still need to save to preserve your words.

Second, Carrion's position at MUFON was a day job. I don't know if it represented a 40 hour week or more, but I expect it may have crimped his style when it comes to doing actual research.

Oh, I've had that happen quite a few times. Always makes me pissed off enough to want to break something. I've learned to always highlight and copy everything before I hit the post button.

 

[softbeard]

I can guarantee that the government cares nothing for the less than 1 percent UFO crowd. The To make a long story short, we need to stop buying into the bunk that the "dark government" has objects that can perform like the 1% of legitimate documented UFO’s.

I agree 70-80% with that line of thought. It probably is quite true today; nothing but the very fringes of 'the government' could give a whit about manipulating/monitoring the UFO community. However, if we stretch our view back to the cold-war years, I think that argument becomes much less solid. Don't forget, there are many other interests besides 'the government' that would find it convenient to manipulate the UFO crowd.

 

[Paul Kimball]

Oh, I understand his point.
My point is that this is nonsense. Why would the government turn to these infighting, inept, and silly buffs and pay them to do what they do naturally.
And I DO have some doubt about the Bennewitz case but I am glad that for you the case (involving some of the most notorious hoaxers in the UFO game) is wholly proven.
Don't know about the Redfern thing but am willing to bet that it isn't as clear cut as you seem to suggest.

Lance

Hi Lance,

I would direct you to my own interview with James, which is now available at my humble little The Other Side of Truth podcast, where he makes a good point about why intel agencies would keep an eye on a group like MUFON. I certainly don't agree with everything James says, and I think he overstates his case by a wide margin, but on the question of intel involvement with the various people and groups interested in UFOs, it has been clearly shown that it existed, and most likely continues to exist, for the same reasons it always had, although those reasons are not the ones put forward by ET believers. Is it a major pre-occupation of the intel agencies? No, of course not. But is it there? Yes. *

You shouldn't let you anti-UFO bias blind you to the reality of the situation, Lance, anymore than the true believers should let theirs blind them.

Paul

* Incidentally, it's important to remember that there are numerous groups within the US government (or Canada's, or the UK's, or any country) tasked with gathering intelligence on all sorts of things, and they don't always know what the others are up to (a problem that was one of the key causes of the intel failure preceding 9/11). They are competitors, even today, and it is a mistake to treat the "intelligence community" as a monolithic group... or even to treat a particular agency, like the CIA, as a monolithic group.

 

[softbeard]

it is a mistake to treat the "intelligence community" as a monolithic group... or even to treat a particular agency, like the CIA, as a monolithic group.

Exactly. I think that point cannot be amplified enough.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I still found myself nodding my head during this episode way more than usual. I can't agree with everything he said, but he made a lot if sense to me. Paul's interview with him is next on my podcast list.

 

[plumbbob12]

One almost has to work in the federal government in order to understand its reality. While it is true that there were probably rogue administrative officers that got a bug up their butts, and did some wacky stuff like attempt to debunk UFO's or infiltrate a certain organization, this was by no means policy. There is a huge difference between policy and one person’s agenda. The biggest difference is money. Policy gets appropriated dollars from congress. Wild hairs do not. While one might do some creative paper work in order to try to tie in one’s own agenda with UFO's with another departments research, this does not fly too long, and hence usually ends up in the dead files where one has too, by law keep paperwork for three years for GSA auditing. This is usually creatively embellished as to tie in some cowboy's own private project with a real existing project. In the end, it’s a dead end. My point is that there is no organized government surveillance of UFO organizations. One has to understand just how incompetent the government is. This does not mean that there are not very intelligent creative people who work for the government, but the bureaucracy is stagnant at best, made up of what Walton called people who are “living a life of quiet desperation”. As for, debunking, in my view, it is no longer needed, as we do a great job of debunking ourselves. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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[Paul Kimball]

Hi Paul,

I don't doubt that government agencies were very interested in the early days and have seen evidence that this interest continued (becoming milder and milder) until at least the 1970's. I wouldn't be surprised if there was still some sort of occasional interest, especially when related to some secret aircraft test seen by civilians (as an example).

But what I do doubt is that the increasingly pointless and always impotent MUFON is considered in any funded consensus of the intelligence community (as opposed to nitwits like Richard Doty, for instance) to be anything beyond what it is: a bunch of unscientific saucer buffs. That a cloak and dagger routine might be concocted to give MUFON money to squander (on nothing which is their stock in trade) is beyond the possibility of belief (at least for me).

I would have thought that you might be tired of how the buffs, upon finding out about some negative aspect of UFO's, always pull out the disinformation card. It's so sad that these doddering old ideas still find resonance among the doddering old (and clueless new) enthusiasts.

And as far as my biases go, are you suggesting that you have none? If so, I hope that you might look down upon me from up above and realize that I get mine as honestly as I can.


Lance

Lance,

We all have biases, of course, but I know what mine are, and work hard to keep them from colouring my ability to remain objective (with varying degrees of success). The tone of some of your posts makes me think that you might not have that filter on as much as you should.

In terms of the intel agencies, you're using far too broad a brush, and it's one that is coloured by your clear hatred (which I don't think is too strong a word) for "ufology". To some degree, I sympathize, and no, I don't think any intel agency is monitoring or infiltrating MUFON so that it can run psy-ops on them, or find out what they know about aliens, or anything like that, as if often suggested by the "ufology" crowd (who like to believe they are more important than they really are). I do, however, expect that someone would keep an eye on MUFON's investigations, particularly pictures people might take and send in to them of stuff that the United States is testing in the skies above us and which they would rather not have our competitors know about. Is it a multi-billion dollar intelligence operation? I sincerely doubt it. But given that those kinds of reports and photos do exist, and represent instant intel for foreign powers, I would hope that someone, somewhere is keeping an eye on it. I would be shocked if they aren't.

As for the idea that the intel agencies are targeting MUFON for any reason other than the one I note above, I reject it out of hand as fantasy wish-fulfilment by ufologists. But that doesn't mean that it isn't happening for other reasons.

In terms of message forums, by the way, I am certain that the same monitoring goes on, for the same reasons. I would add one more there, however, and that is the government's desire to keep track of potentially dangerous (at least in their eyes) elements of social disorder / protest. One only has to look at the ties between elements of the neo-Nazi far right and the UFO subject to see why they would do that (to use just one known and dangerous example).

By the way, there's another group that regularly monitors internet message forums - guys like me, looking for ways to market new projects, or good story ideas, or just to test something out. I dicuss this a bit in a recent episode of my podcast with British researcher Dave Sadler.

Paul