Dolan: The Secret Space Program - Who is Responsible?

[Christopher O'Brien]

[ Sure, why not? For the sake of argument, let's entertain the thought. The Nazi bad guy dudes somehow managed to get to the moon and Mars before the end of WWII. Yeah, then what? Where have these "Iron Sky" warriors been for the past 70 years? Exploring Europa or Zeta Reticula? Finalizing plans for the 4th Reich? uhh, I dunno, sounds like a b-i-t of a stretch to us boo-birds in the Paracast peanut gallery --chris]

Full Article HERE:
[Breakaway Civilization? -- ok...]

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By Sean Casteel

Here is a puzzling aspect of UFOlogy all but one of the “heavy hitters” in the field refuse to go anywhere near due to the potential “sneer factor."​

IS A COVERT BREAKAWAY CIVILIZATION RESPONSIBLE FOR A SECRET INVISIBLE SPACE PROGRAM? DID THE NAZIS LAND ON THE MOON AND MARS DURING THE FINAL DAYS OF WORLD WAR II? HAVE ASTRONAUTS PLANTED THE MASONIC FLAG ON BOTH INTERPLANETARY BODIES? ARE THE BOOMERANG AND TRIANGULAR UFOS OBSERVED WORLDWIDE PART OF A GLOBAL SURVEILLANCE PROGRAM, OFFERING EVIDENCE THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS CAPABLE OF TAKING OVER OUR SKY? WAS THE LATE SUPER SCIENTIST NIKOLA TESLA INVOLVED IN THE EARLY DEVELOPMENT OF THIS SECRET SPACE PROGRAM? [Sure, why not? Show me the evidence! --chris]​

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It is evident that our own space agency, NASA, or some agency from another earthly country, seems to be wandering around up on the Lunar as well as the Martian surfaces. And furthermore, they seem to be most vigorous in their ongoing efforts, which our government and military are keeping as hush-hush as they possibly can, though to many the proverbial cat has escaped from the bag.​

Researcher and long time publisher Timothy Green Beckley of Global Communications published a new book this year called “The Secret Space Program: Who Is Responsible?” that covers many aspects of atopic that just gets increasingly hotter all the time. We have recently witnessed the successful landing of the Curiosity space probe on Mars and await any relevant information it may offer on the possibility of life on the Red Planet, even if it be but a few struggling microbes. Which still begs the question, if proof of some alien life form was found there, what form would the inevitable cover-up take? Could we trust any leaks that told us something intelligent had, at least in ancient times, taken up residency there?​

[Go get 'em Rich! You may be on the right track! ---chris]​

This is the kind of murky area where one turns to an expert for guidance and in this case, we spoke toworld-renowned investigator, author and frequent media guest Richard Dolan.​

Richard Dolan is one of the most respected figures in the UFO community. In a field crowded by overzealous believers and fringe “contactees,” Dolan has firmly established a reputation as a researcher and author who relies primarily on public and proven sources, or at least sources whose background can be verified in real-world terms. He has written two very influential books on the government cover-up of the UFO phenomenon, “UFOs and the National Security State,” Volumes One and Two, that provide thorough research into the history of the clandestine, black budget response of the US military and intelligence community to the alien presence. Rest of Article HERE:​

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[Randall]

Dolan: “One of the ideas I’ve been kicking around for the last few years,” Dolan said, “is that of a ‘breakaway civilization.’ I think that this is something that is real. Now, my theory of it is that it originated really in post-World War II society, but there’s nothing preventing such a thing from having happened earlier.

It's one thing to entertain these possibilities for the sake of ufology lore and culture; it's another to say you think they're something real. There is no question in my mind that UFOs are real, come in a variety of configurations, and can fly circles around anything we've got, but that is about as far as I'm willing to go. Where they come from, what they're made of, why they are here, and how they work are all based on speculation. And if we're going to start speculating, then we might logically speculate that given the infrastructure, materials and supply lines that would probably be required to build things like motherships and fleets of shuttles, if such UFOs are manufactured here on Earth, or on the Moon ( or even in some nearby space dock ), it stands to reason that we would have obtained sufficient evidence of that by now.

 

[trainedobserver]

It's one thing to entertain these possibilities for the sake of ufology lore and culture; it's another to say you think they're something real. There is no question in my mind that UFOs are real, come in a variety of configurations, and can fly circles around anything we've got, but that is about as far as I'm willing to go. Where they come from, what they're made of, why they are here, and how they work are all based on speculation. And if we're going to start speculating, then we might logically speculate that given the infrastructure, materials and supply lines that would probably be required to build things like motherships and fleets of shuttles, if such UFOs are manufactured here on Earth, or on the Moon ( or even in some nearby space dock ), it stands to reason that we would have obtained sufficient evidence of that by now.

I agree with everything but the last sentence. All of the infrastructure, materials, and supply lines exist here and now. Billions of dollars will get you whatever you need. There are places in the United States which are impenetrable to the general public where very large projects are underway. If some UFOs are manufactured objects, I think the probably that they are based somewhere on the Earth or at least within the solar system is higher than them coming from the outside. The solar system is a big place .I think we have to remember what we don't know.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I think any secret space program is that which is indeed secret, namely military launches from Vandenburg and certain payloads from Canaveral.

Whether there are fighting UFO vehicles above the atmosphere is another matter. Also, if indeed the US has cracked anti-gravity etc in any way, then indeed there could be human-built craft flying above us.

What is the general opinion on the night-vision footage from Ed Grimsley? I have watched a fair bit and find it fascinating. Does anyone know it it's a proven hoax? I find that hard to believe because he has taken many people on skywatches with multiple goggles. George Noory said he saw stuff and I know we all think Noory is the easiest guy in the world to convince of fairies, or at least him not question it, but still, I'm on the side of thinking Grimsley has got something.

 

[exo_doc]

OK, let me jump head first into the abyss......
I think there is a very strong possibility that humans have a large prescence in space, if not intergalactically, then interplanetary. It's just a hunch with very thin, almost invisible ghosts of information pointing to it.
Gary McKinnon claims to have seen a list of non-terrestrial officers and a list of fleet ships whose names do not appear on any government rosters.
Our government has lost ALL interest in manned space exploration by conventional methods. All the talk about Lunar bases and Mars colonies are just PR exercises. At best.
Gigantic, obviously artificial flying craft have been seen several times (Phoenix, Japan Airlines flight 1628, Stephenville TX just to name a few) ,...and the military wasn't even the SLIGHTEST bit alarmed? And even continues to cover up or ignore something so potentially explosive?

IF the United States, by itself or allied with other countries, does have practical spaceflight abilities, and have manned bases in the solar system or possibly even beyond.... my main question is "WHY KEEP IT SECRET?"

What are they afraid of? Is there an actual good reason for the secrecy, or are they just being cosmic assholes?
Are we just mushrooms? (kept in the dark and fed bullshit)

 

[Goggs Mackay]

There is no way to ever check on Gary's story but I agree that it is strange that the military ostensibly could care less when any responsible military would have it as No.1 priority!

That leads me to conclude that either there is collusion with ET, or 'we' are aware but have been told to leave the ET alone. The one thing that cannot be true is that the military is uninterested in new power sources, physics and materials, computing etc! As if!

 

[mike]

For the sake of playing iwth the idea.

So the Nazis get antigrav / FTL etc etc, why would we expect to see them over the past 70 years.
Once you have this tech the planet earth is small potatoes.
It would be like being born on some small polynesian island and then moving to the city that never sleeps, bright lights and 24 hour fast food.

You might go back for a short visit, but you would never live there again.

The nazi's wanted to take over the world, and met stiff resistance.
Suddenly you have access to multiple worlds, why bother fighting for this one, when there are others for the taking.

The atomic bomb is a good example of cat out of the bag technology.
Once someone knows it can be done, others will hammer away at it until they can do it too.

The ace up the sleeve is valuable precisely because its hidden

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Mike your point about Nuke tech being out of the bag makes me think of how stupid I believe CND to be.

Not because getting rid of nuclear weapons is at all bad, I'm all for it - but if the main players did just that, it won't stop the North Korea's or Iran's of the world seeking to build them. If one of these countries becomes the sole owner, worldwide, of nukes, where will we be then?

No, as much as CND is admirable as an ideal, in practicality it is insanity cos as you said Mike, you cannot un-invent something. It's here to stay sadly. (the weapons - even after fukushima, I am undecided about nuclear power - are the Americans in the world willing to drive small European cars with small engines or carry on with gas-guzzling inefficient trucks? I think many for many American men (mostly), the truck is the new horse from back in the day! I used to see these huge things driving everywhere in Texas but no-one ever really used the space at the back, so why get a truck?
(BTW I'm not putting the energy drain all on America - I live in the UK and no doubt use the resources and energy of probably 500 people from some other nations and I am far from proud of the waste I incur. Packaging for food being beyond a joke. All these little individual cartons for yakult or yoghurt etc - it's a ridiculous waste! Rant over.)

 

[Randall]

I agree with everything but the last sentence. All of the infrastructure, materials, and supply lines exist here and now. Billions of dollars will get you whatever you need. There are places in the United States which are impenetrable to the general public where very large projects are underway. If some UFOs are manufactured objects, I think the probably that they are based somewhere on the Earth or at least within the solar system is higher than them coming from the outside. The solar system is a big place .I think we have to remember what we don't know.

Even if they are working with our suppliers, refiners and logistics people, the scale would be so massive that it simply couldn't be covered up. Just imagine the amount of materials, manufacturing and infrastructure required to build something like a mother ship? We might compare that to all the materials and workmanship that goes into building an aircraft carrier. How many different materials and manufacturing processes are required for something of that scale? The various mines, refineries, factories, and logistical components are spread out all over the world and require an entire societal infrastructure to maintain it. So although we could conceivably assemble an aircraft carrier in a secret location, the supporting infrastructure would be impossible to hide and people would still know it's going on someplace.

There also isn't any way to rationalize that it still might be possible to hide all this using some advanced science beyond our means because the fundamental elements that make up the raw materials are still the same no matter what you are going to build with them and cannot be simply manifested out of thin air. There are thousands of independent public prospectors hunting the planet for resources. What are they going to do when they find some strange mining operation that shouldn't exist? How long can those be kept a secret? It's just not reaosnable to think they can. In todays world the number of secrets required to conceal an entire high tech breakaway civilization would simply be too immense to cover up.

 

[exo_doc]

Maybe the technology hasn't been kept in the bag, maybe it's in plain sight. Just ridiculed and debunked when the tech is witnessed.Yes this is just speculation, but I really think there is something to this.
Maybe not "Iron Sky" Nazi's, or crypto-terrestrials something. I'll leave those credibilties up for debate.

So let's play "What If...?".
What IF humans are roaming the stars at will.
Where did the technology come from? Roswell? ET technology "good will" gifts? Good old fashioned human sweat and ingenuity?
If there are that many ships (and bases?) , and people manning them, how can such a thing be kept from the public world at large?
And as I have asked before, "WHY keep it a secret?" What is so dangerous about it? Is it for our own good? Or like I said before, are they just cosmic assholes who think they are the "ELITE" , not wanting to bother with the primitives and thier internal combustion engines, chicken McNuggets, and video games?
Or could they actually be living THE science fiction of the future in the now? Perhaps protecting us from bad aliens, extermination, or enslavement?
I mean really think about it. Humans flying through and exploring space, living in artificial ships/bases......to what end?
Why would they do that?
Is the earth really doomed, maybe(?) , so they selected the best and brightest to travel and live away from earth to keep the human species alive?
Speculation yes I know.

So to sum up:
1. Why keep such technology a secret?
2. Why keep successful space travel a secret?
3. Why travel through and live in space, what is to be gained by doing that?

 

[trainedobserver]

So although we could conceivably assemble an aircraft carrier in a secret location, the supporting infrastructure would be impossible to hide and people would still know it's going on someplace.

That is another assumption. Obviously those involved would know, but how would the two of us even be aware it? I have no real visibility into that sort of thing. Do you?

There also isn't any way to rationalize that it still might be possible to hide all this using some advanced science beyond our means because the fundamental elements that make up the raw materials are still the same no matter what you are going to build with them and cannot be simply manifested out of thin air.

Assumptions. Fleets of classified aircraft (some now public knowledge) have been manufactured, maintained, and flown in complete and utter secrecy for many years.

There are thousands of independent public prospectors hunting the planet for resources. What are they going to do when they find some strange mining operation that shouldn't exist? How long can those be kept a secret? It's just not reaosnable to think they can. In todays world the number of secrets required to conceal an entire high tech breakaway civilization would simply be too immense to cover up.

Straw man arguments and more assumptions. The ability to develop high technology and operate it in almost complete secrecy is a historical fact. The degree to which that is going on is unknowable not only to the average citizen, but to people within the supply chain and infrastructure itself. They need not know that component A goes into assembly B which goes into aircraft X.

I am certain that there are any number of people who just read that because of time in industry or the military know from experience that secrets, some very large secrets, are vigorously maintained. Assuming that secrets cannot be kept, or that large projects cannot enlist the service of thousands without their knowing what they are actually working on, flies in the face of history and the personal experience of many.

People recorded seeing strange things in the sky in antiquity. Therefore modern civilization as we know it could not be responsible for those unless something truly outrageous and unlikely as time travel is occurring. That does not rule out the very real possibility that some aspect of our current civilization is responsible for the modern UFO era however. Which answers to the UFO enigma makes the fewest assumptions? We have to look for those.

 

[exo_doc]

That is another assumption. Obviously those involved would know, but how would the two of us even be aware it? I have no real visibility into that sort of thing. Do you?
Assumptions. Fleets of classified aircraft (some now public knowledge) have been manufactured, maintained, and flown in complete and utter secrecy for many years.
Straw man arguments and more assumptions. The ability to develop high technology and operate it in almost complete secrecy is a historical fact. The degree to which that is going on is unknowable not only to the average citizen, but to people within the supply chain and infrastructure itself. They need not know that component A goes into assembly B which goes into aircraft X.
I am certain that there are any number of people who just read thatbecause of time in industry or the military know from experience that secrets, some very large secrets, are vigorously maintained. Assuming that secrets cannot be kept, or that large projects cannot enlist the service of thousands without their knowing what they are actually working on, flies in the face of history and the personal experience of many.

People recorded seeing strange things in the sky in antiquity. Therefore modern civilization as we know it could not be responsible for those unless something truly outrageous and unlikely as time travel is occurring. That does not rule out the very real possibility that some aspect of our current civilization is responsible for the modern UFO era however. Which answers to the UFO enigma makes the fewest assumptions? We have to look for those.

I think some secrets could certainly be kept.
I didn't think of the pre-industrial UAP sightings when speculating on mankinds secret tech causing some sightings. And as you said, perhaps some of them are. Good post!

 

[Randall]

That is another assumption. Obviously those involved would know, but how would the two of us even be aware it? I have no real visibility into that sort of thing. Do you? Assumptions. Fleets of classified aircraft (some now public knowledge) have been manufactured, maintained, and flown in complete and utter secrecy for many years. Straw man arguments and more assumptions. The ability to develop high technology and operate it in almost complete secrecy is a historical fact ...

I'll agree I'm making assumptions, so what? They are much more reasonable assumptions compared to all the assumptions you'd have to make to support the idea that an entire high tech breakaway civilization on Earth is responsible for UFOs, and I've given examples as to why: To sum up again: The massive raw materials extraction and supporting societal infrastructure required to support the construction of something like a mother ship would be too complex to keep secret for this long. I've heard no reasonable counter to that except that we have had secret programs in the past. Sure, for certain small relatively simple things for a short time. And even those things couldn't be completely hidden, the Russians knew about the A-12 by watching Area 51 from space, and there were spies that knew about the Manhattan Project, and those projects were small potatoes compared to the scale that would be required to explain the UFO phenomenon. Add to that the huge worldwide political conspiracy you'd have to presume is also being kept secret. So sure, I'll keep making my assumptions because they make sense. Lastly I'll deny the strawman accusation. None there.

 

[Randall]

That is another assumption. Obviously those involved would know, but how would the two of us even be aware it? I have no real visibility into that sort of thing. Do you? Assumptions. Fleets of classified aircraft (some now public knowledge) have been manufactured, maintained, and flown in complete and utter secrecy for many years. Straw man arguments and more assumptions. The ability to develop high technology and operate it in almost complete secrecy is a historical fact ...

I'll agree I'm making assumptions, so what? They are much more reasonable assumptions compared to all the assumptions you'd have to make to support the idea that an entire high tech breakaway civilization on Earth is responsible for UFOs, and I've given examples as to why: To sum up again: The massive raw materials extraction and supporting societal infrastructure required to support the construction of something like a mother ship would be too complex to keep secret for this long. I've heard no reasonable counter to that except that we have had secret programs in the past. Sure, for certain small relatively simple things for a short time. And even those things couldn't be completely hidden, the Russians knew about the A-12 by watching Area 51 from space, and there were spies that knew about the Manhattan Project, and those projects were small potatoes compared to the scale that would be required to explain the UFO phenomenon. Add to that the huge worldwide political conspiracy you'd have to presume is also being kept secret. So sure, I'll keep making my assumptions because they make sense. Lastly I'll deny the strawman accusation. None there.

 

[Randall]

That is another assumption. Obviously those involved would know, but how would the two of us even be aware it? I have no real visibility into that sort of thing. Do you? Assumptions. Fleets of classified aircraft (some now public knowledge) have been manufactured, maintained, and flown in complete and utter secrecy for many years. Straw man arguments and more assumptions. The ability to develop high technology and operate it in almost complete secrecy is a historical fact ...

I'll agree I'm making assumptions, so what? They are much more reasonable assumptions compared to all the assumptions you'd have to make to support the idea that an entire high tech breakaway civilization on Earth is responsible for UFOs, and I've given examples as to why: To sum up again: The massive raw materials extraction and supporting societal infrastructure required to support the construction of something like a mother ship would be too complex to keep secret for this long. I've heard no reasonable counter to that except that we have had secret programs in the past. Sure, for certain small relatively simple things for a short time. And even those things couldn't be completely hidden, the Russians knew about the A-12 by watching Area 51 from space, and there were spies that knew about the Manhattan Project, and those projects were small potatoes compared to the scale that would be required to explain the UFO phenomenon. Add to that the huge worldwide political conspiracy you'd have to presume is also being kept secret. So sure, I'll keep making my assumptions because they make sense. Lastly I'll deny the strawman accusation. None there.

 

[exo_doc]

I'll agree I'm making assumptions, so what? They are much more reasonable assumptions compared to all the assumptions you'd have to make to support the idea that an entire high tech breakaway civilization on Earth is responsible for UFOs, and I've given examples as to why: To sum up again: The massive raw materials extraction and supporting societal infrastructure required to support the construction of something like a mother ship would be too complex to keep secret for this long. I've heard no reasonable counter to that except that we have had secret programs in the past. Sure, for certain small relatively simple things for a short time. And even those things couldn't be completely hidden, the Russians knew about the A-12 by watching Area 51 from space, and there were spies that knew about the Manhattan Project, and those projects were small potatoes compared to the scale that would be required to explain the UFO phenomenon. Add to that the huge worldwide political conspiracy you'd have to presume is also being kept secret. So sure, I'll keep making my assumptions because they make sense. Lastly I'll deny the strawman accusation. None there.

What if the Russians were in on it? Or at least knew about it? What if it's a multi-country endeavor (conspiracy possibly being too strong a word)?

That's why I call my ideas speculations, because there is very little information to go on, just deductions and possibilities.
Thrilling and intrigueing, but but they are just speculations.

BTW, it is possible to camoflage entire structures, or make them look like something else to a satellite.

 

[trainedobserver]

They are much more reasonable assumptions compared to all the assumptions you'd have to make to support the idea that an entire high tech breakaway civilization on Earth is responsible for UFOs, and I've given examples as to why ...

Deny as you wish, that is another straw-man argument. I did not propose that it would take "an entire high tech breakaway civilization."

I put to you that their origin and nature is unknown and certainly unknowable through observing their appearance and behavior. Speculating as to their point of origin is entertaining, but produces no real knowledge about them.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Here's a thought that I haven't seen covered. All the huge resources being talked about, whether they would be easy/difficult to hide etc - but what if there really is some collusion between a Government and ET - I have no problem thinking an advanced civilisation could indeed hide huge projects of construction?

In a similar vein - all these D.U.M.B (deep underground military bases) - well, I know it won't be Army engineers doing the building of these. So however many of these exist unknown say in the States and the number of workers required to do the construction, well I find it hard to believe that the locations and sizes of such bases does not leak out through all the civilians involved in their construction?

The 'experts' in the field of DUMB's - do they have an idea to the number, size and locations of these things? Far more so than the back-engineering of UFOs, I find it hard to think such huge constructions can be kept totally secret, even if on Government land. It still requires large machinery and many men to finish such installations.
Think of all the digging, tunnelling, water works, electrical works, air conditioning, security etc - the list goes on and on. That number of skills and equipment and bodies must be near impossible to hide?

There are quite a few cold-war installations that you can visit now in the UK but of course the UK is a small country. There just isn't the vast spaces countries such as the US, Canada, Russia or Australia can spare.
Perhaps it's like I once heard about the Pyramid builders -some of them were entombed to keep the secrets? Anyone hear of 'missing' construction workers perchance!

 

[mike]

Another thing to consider is the inevitable aspect of a "breakaway" civilisation.

Whether its already happened or going to happen, its inevitable that the result will be a breakaway civilisation imo.

Lets look at the current cadre of humans who have been offplanet thus far.

They are tested for physical fitness, and intellectual fitness, the rare exception seems to be the billionaire astronauts, which in itself is a form of financial fitness.
Branson wants 200,000 a seat for his venture, which means the average joe wont ever go into space. Not at that price
The other small category are lottery winners, like Christa McAuliffe, but again she had a BA and MA degrees.

So to my mind its inevitable that as mankind heads out into space, its going to be an elite sampling.

Jump ahead to orbital colonys.......

The initial staffing of these facilitys will have to bring skills pertinent to the habitats function, and the resulting population including offspring will need to be managed with the optimal function of that habitat being the primary consideration.

If the ground dwelling population continues on as it does now, they will naturally "look down" on the grubby dirtsiders below.
An orbital habitats existance is more precarious, far less forgiving of error than the one we currently have. As a matter of necessity it will be more rigidly controlled.

This imo can only lead to a divergance in societal values.

Even in todays world Australias population is often identified as convict stock, 200 years after the penal colony was established. By the locals often as a badge of honour and often enough by the mother country as a derisive label.

The first space colonists will be drawn, as they currently are from the fitest of humans, and they will identify themselves as having "the right stuff".

Under these circumstances any civilisation of space going humans will naturally breakaway

 

[exo_doc]

Another thing to consider is the inevitable aspect of a "breakaway" civilisation.

Whether its already happened or going to happen, its inevitable that the result will be a breakaway civilisation imo.

Lets look at the current cadre of humans who have been offplanet thus far.

They are tested for physical fitness, and intellectual fitness, the rare exception seems to be the billionaire astronauts, which in itself is a form of financial fitness.
Branson wants 200,000 a seat for his venture, which means the average joe wont ever go into space. Not at that price
The other small category are lottery winners, like Christa McAuliffe, but again she had a BA and MA degrees.

So to my mind its inevitable that as mankind heads out into space, its going to be an elite sampling.

Jump ahead to orbital colonys.......

The initial staffing of these facilitys will have to bring skills pertinent to the habitats function, and the resulting population including offspring will need to be managed with the optimal function of that habitat being the primary consideration.

If the ground dwelling population continues on as it does now, they will naturally "look down" on the grubby dirtsiders below.
An orbital habitats existance is more precarious, far less forgiving of error than the one we currently have. As a matter of necessity it will be more rigidly controlled.

This imo can only lead to a divergance in societal values.

Even in todays world Australias population is often identified as convict stock, 200 years after the penal colony was established. By the locals often as a badge of honour and often enough by the mother country as a derisive label.

The first space colonists will be drawn, as they currently are from the fitest of humans, and they will identify themselves as having "the right stuff".

Under these circumstances any civilisation of space going humans will naturally breakaway

Break Away civilizations are the stock trade of classic science fiction. There are boundless examples of speculated societies that grew from colonists that migrated from Earth.
Are there people actually living science fiction out there right now?