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Crystal Skulls - May 3oth 2011

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Oh, sorry. I'm awake now. :)

I'll hush. Have at it. :)

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 PM ----------

I'm sorry TO. Your a good guy and I enjoy our talks. It's just my eyes glazed over about 10 pages back. :) But, that doesn't mean everybody else shares my opinion. So, I'll keep my word this time. I'm outta here. :)

Enjoy Tyder.


---------- Post added at 11:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------

Kieran said:
Enjoy Tyder.

 
I also suggest that claiming "zoology" and "psychology" as examples of non-scientific disciplines may fly fine on a paranormal discussion board but in real life your results may vary.

Can you point out an example of where a respected researcher stepped "out of bounds" of the method, at times even at the observational level" and still produced accepted results?


Lance

Dian Fossey. Her research method which included the ascribing of personality traits (anthromorphism) to the apes that she was studying was considered taboo by most primatologists back in the 1970's. Yet her research is still considered "acceptable" and is studied and read by many aspiring biologists.
 
BTW I am still trying to finish listening to this episode...my comments?

I guess I'm just really sensitive to data and I couldn't feel any of it in this episode.
 
lancemoody;117505 But being doubtful is not the same as saying the original claim is a lie. [/QUOTE said:
I couldn't resist seriously . Lance how can one doubt a fact lol

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

Is the author also to be faulted also for not carefully vetting the Atlantis claim?

Lance obviously the Atlantis claim hasn't been verified, but the HP testing was verified, big difference.

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 PM ----------

Lauren, I find can be narrow minded and slightly biased with his postings, But he has understood my view best so I thank him for that.

It annoyed me that Train, Lance, and some other people here on the forum have excused this Skeptic Robert T Carroll from being wrong, just because overall, they'd do believe his views are correct. While he may be correct folks it up to Robert T Carroll to present the information correctly, and factually!

In this case he made it out as if this Dorland HP claim was only a claim, which is of course, untrue.

If a ufologist had been caught doing this and that Ufologist said this about "James Randi"

He claims he debunked or exposed James Hydrick... Well that that is not a claim it happened. What would Lance reaction be to this Ufologist?

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:37 PM ----------

All of those sites copied each other and repeated false claims about what was in the report, including false quotes, false tests, and false conclusions.

Lance, I agree not everything claimed can be investigated and examined. Like the damn thing shouldn't be" I can't find a source for this, but that doesn't mean it was not said in passing to someone during the testing, but without a source would can't take this claim into consideration.

But this has to be taken into consideration Lance.. "For the Mitchel-Hedges the Lab performed two "Significant" tests..

Well that statement to me doesn't rule other tests with the Mitchel-Hedges skull happened at the HP lab at Santa Clara. Measure HP newsletter believed this two tests were the most important, that is all.

Now Lance explain this for me please, From Measure HP Newsletter 1970.

Quartz crystal
is an extremely hard material hard in the sense that a
diamond is hard, and hard to work with. The size and
clarity of the II pound, 7-ounce Mitchell-Hedges skull
made it a rarity.

The workmanship is exquisite, a compound of patient hand crafting (using sand and water to
smoothly abrade the rock) and technical precision requiring an estimated 300 man-years of effort..


Words have meaning Clarity a Rarity (meaning nothing like it)

"Technical precision requiring an estimated 300 man years of effort'... 300 years? thought this was a fake made back in 1920?
 
Kieran, I'm afraid that I am going to have to stop discussing things with you. Since you don't understand the meaning of certain words, there is no way we can reach any kind of understanding.

"Rarity" (as a noun) does not mean "nothing like it". It means rare.

300 Man Years (which is just a guess, obviously) can be whittled down pretty quickly with modern machinery (which is exactly what most everyone who is not a moron or liar believes to be the case). Did you even read the stuff I linked from Dr. Walsh or did you just rely on your own impeccable credentials in both Etymology and Archeology?

Again, I am unworthy of discussing this stuff with someone at your level since you have obviously forged your own path in these areas of study.

Lance

Lance, If I am remembering correctly it was you who'd engaged me first in conversation about the Crystal Skulls, so why, am i now unworthy of your attention?

Rarity means something very rare, infrequency of occurrence!!!

Now Lance, the Mitchell-Hedges Skull is a rarity by the fact nothing like it does exist today. So in the eyes of many, this item would be considering a rarity, as theres nothing like it! Something, like it may well exist somewhere, but it hasn't been found, or discovered so far.

Now there is a number of other Crystals Skulls in existence across the world, but none of them, can be compared, to the craftsmanship of the the Mitchell-Hedges Crystal Skull.

Hope that has clarified what I meant, Lance?

I know lot of people on this forum are getting really bored by this discussion? I do apologize for my hand in causing that boredom, but its an important discussion, by the fact, it showing least for me how Skeptics like Lance act when confronted with facts that contradict their beliefs. Why do I say that, ok, besides what I have pointed out to Lance before about his Skeptic friend Robert T Carroll!

Lance, has revealed in the past to me on this forum, well at the end of the day, he only listens to expert opinions!!

But its seems from this post he posted he only listens to experts, who'd would agree with him. How is that defensible, I have to ask?

Lance, you'll have slammed and criticized the Crystal Skull believers for making up things that can't be found in Measure- the HP Newsletter from 1970.

But see now when I pointed it out to you in my last post. It was the 'Expert" opinion according to measure of the HP crystal Lab at Santa Clara California

The Technical precision required in making of the Mitchell Crystal Skull would be estimated 300 man-years of effort "Should I accept HP and their Technician's findings about the 300 man-years of effort?

Or Should I just forget their expert opinion as your suggesting, and accept your layman's opinion Lance, which was Quote "Which is just guess obviously?

But, Lance, the Crystal Mitchell Skull is alleged by your Skeptical friends to have been made in 1924 sometime I believe--- HP had far better and more reliable machinery in 1970 then the 1920's folks had, and they still came up with the 300 years of man effort!

Ok whittled down as you say by modern machinery, like how many of those 300 years of man effort should we slash off there for you Lance, to make you uniquely happy?

You can't have it both ways Lance in this debate, by all means be contemptuous in your next post, but your only damaging your own position by doing so.

Whats in the HP newsletter proves the Mitchell-Hedges isn't a fake! Was the Mitchel-Hedges discovered in Belize, I don't think we could say that for sure?

But see this is the difference, between me and you Lance, as I hold both the skeptical side and the believer side, to account when the telling of stories about the paranormal and our ancient mysteries, have been shown to be dishonest, have involved cheating and hoaxing, and the telling of lies,, and so on. Its inconsistent with my belief system doing this, but I don't deny any of this goes on, but you have shown to me you'll deny mistakes are made by Skeptics, even when they're shown to have been economical with the truth, is that better for you than me calling him a liar?
 
Slightly smaller than life size, it recalled a crystal skull in the British Museum, and it seemed to me to be a close copy of that object, at least in size and shape. However, it differed from the British Museum example in its more elaborate carving, extremely high polish, and separate mandible.
The similarity of the two skulls’ size and shape can be verified using measurements and photographs taken at the British Museum in 1936, when the museum’s skull was compared to the Mitchell-Hedges one, which was then called the Burney skull after its owner, London art dealer Sydney Burney. According to an article published in the journal Man, the British Museum (BM) skull is 17.7 cm front to back (glabellar-occipital length), and the Mitchell-Hedges (MH) skull is 17.4; the BM skull is 13.5 cm from side to side (maximum calvarial breadth) and the MH skull is 14. Many of the other measurements taken are equally close, but as the article’s author, British Museum physical anthropologist Geoffrey M. Morant, notes (pp. 105-106), “A more interesting comparison can be made by superposing the outlines,” which clearly illustrates how nearly identical the skulls are in size and shape.
Adrian Digby, a young British Museum archaeologist, commented on the measurements and observations made by Morant in a short article accompanying the latter’s comparative study. Digby (1936: p. 10 offered the possibility that the
Museum skull was copied from an original skull, and that at a later date the Burney skull was a sort of composite copy relying for its proportions on the skull now in the Museum and for its anatomical detail on some human skull in the possession of the carver.
He came to the conclusion that it would be quite strange that
anybody wishing to carve a skull out of rock crystal, and taking a real skull as his model should modify its dimensions to fit those of another crystal skull which he would see was but a poor copy of nature. It shows a perverted ingenuity such as one would expect to find in a forger, but Mr. Burney’s skull bears no traces of recent (metal age) workmanship; so this suggestion may almost certainly be dismissed.
Digby’s analysis was perceptive. By copying the British Museum skull, then thought to be authentic, a forger would make his work look more legitimate. Unfortunately the science of the day was limited. Without modern equipment Digby was unable to detect any evidence of the skull’s recent manufacture.
After my first encounter with the skull in 2007, Homann returned with it to the museum in 2008 so it could be filmed for a Smithsonian Networks documentary, “Legend of the Crystal Skull.” Following up on my initial study, which included examining the skull under a high-powered light microscope, under ultraviolet light, and computerized tomography (CT scan) to determine what we could without harming the object in any way, I took two sets of silicone molds of surface tool marks for SEM analysis.
If the skull were actually Maya from Lubaantun, which was abandoned around A.D. 800, the tools used to carve it would have been sharpened stone implements combined with abrasive sand. Pre-Columbian lapidary technology has been studied with considerable detail for more than a century. Through my own research, I have compiled a large bibliography on stone carvings from controlled archaeological excavations in Mexico and Central America documenting the fact that pre-contact artisans carved stone by abrading the surface with stone tools, as well as wood, and in later pre-Columbian times, copper tools, in combination with a variety of abrasive sands or pulverized stone. No historic or ethnographic source of which I am aware indicates pre-Columbian lapidaries used hard metal, such as iron or steel, as filing, drilling, or cutting tools, or that they employed any type of wheeled or rotary technology (Walsh 2008: pp. 18-19). Comparison of SEM (scanning electron microscopy) images of ancient and modern carvings shows the difference. A line incised with pre-Columbian tools appears as rough with a slight twisting, indicating the movement of the hand pushing a sharpened stone. Modern diamond-coated, high-speed rotary cutting tools show lines that are perfectly straight. Parallel lines within the incisions are evidence of permanently embedded abrasive. The sharpness of the cut and the exactness of the abrasive lines indicate the use of a hard metal tool with a very hard abrasive, i.e. diamond.Micrographs of silicone molds from the Mitchell-Hedges skull reveal marks of high-speed carving tools and deeply cut parallel ridges left by permanently embedded diamond abrasive throughout the skull’s carved components. Some of the marks indicate the use of cutting tools less than a millimeter thick, which means they would have to be made of iron or steel, and the impressions of wheeled tools visible in the carved elements of one of the teeth are less than a millimeter in diameter. Under higher magnification, polished areas show parallel lines with a skipping pattern, indicating the use of a high-speed tool.
It seems reasonable to conclude from the SEM images that the Mitchell-Hedges skull was carved in modern times with high-speed, diamond-coated rotary burring and cutting tools of minute dimension. The teeth alone show the use of a rotary cutting tool less than 2 millimeters in diameter. I believe that the technology under discussion is decidedly 20th century. Considering the skull’s initial appearance in the 1930s, I believe it was created at about that time. The British Museum skull, from which I believe this is copied, was on exhibit fairly continuously from 1898."Lance



Lance. This is what she said, and my analysis of that.

Dr Walsh. The British Crystal Skull seemed to be close copy of that object (the Mitchell Hedges Skull) at least in size and shape!!

Me. "Well, yes, its a human shaped skull made of crystal!! Close copy i doubt, by the fact she said herself and I will quote her Lance again 'At least in size and shape" Well, then, that doesn't in know way make the British Skull, the same as the Mitchell Hedges Skull, does it? I am obliged to point this conclusion out to you. Were is your common-sense in this, is it different to mine?

"This is the how Dr Walsh described the differences between the two skulls.

*The Mitchell-Hedges Skull differed from the British museum example, in its more elaborate carving, extreme high polishing, and a separate mandible.

Me. By the fact the Mitchell-Hedges Skull has a separate mandible, of course, doesn't bring about pause in people like Lance, but it should confirm, to everyone else, the British and Mitchell-Hedges crystal skulls are completely different thus not copy's, the elaborate carving also confirms this to be the case.

2) Dr Walsh reveals the size of both Crystal Skulls to the front and back from an article published in Journal man. Why did she not measure those skulls herself?

According to this article.

The Mitchell-Hedges Skull was 17.7cm in length, from the front to the back, and The British Crystal Skull, was an estimated 17.4cm! While the margin of size, between the two skulls seems small, there still is a difference here, in length of around 3cm, between the two crystal skulls- it could be like comparing someone, who'd be 5 foot 8 Inches in height to another person who stood at a height of 5 foot 11 inches, and saying they do look the same in their height, don't they? Also measurements were taken from one side to the other side which showed the width of the Mitchell-Hedges Skull to be 14cm and the BS was 13.5cm.. not a big difference, but still not exact copy of each other.

!Mitchel-Hedges, has more elaborate carving, extreme polishing and and a separate mandible, size and shape also different to the British Skull.

One must conclude from this alone that the British Skull was made by someone, but not by the person or peoples who made Mitchell-Hedges?
.................................................................................................................................................................................

Lance, most of the writing in that piece would be her conclusions about the British crystal skull, not Mitchell-Hedges. However towards the end of the piece she says this.

Quote. 'Diamond micrograph's of silcone mold from the Mitchell-Hedges skull revealed marks of high speed carving tools and deeply cut parellel ridges left by permanently embedded diamond abrasive throughout he skulls components. Some of the marks indicate the use of cutting tools less than a millimeter thick, which they means they would have to be made of Iron and Steel, and the impressions of wheeled tools visible in the carved elements of one of the teeth ae less than millimeter in diameter, polished areas show parallel lineswih a skipping pattern, indicating the use of a high-speed tool.

It seems reasonable to conclude from the SEM images that the Mitchell-Hedges skull was carved in modern times with high-speed, diamond-coated rotary burring and cutting tools of minute dimension. The teeth alone show the use of a rotary cutting tool less than 2 millimeters in diameter. I believe that the technology under discussion is decidedly 20th century. Considering the skull’s initial appearance in the 1930s, I believe it was created at about that time. The British Museum skull, from which I believe this is copied, was on exhibit fairly continuously from 1898...
................................................................................................................................................................

​Lance, I do agree, she does believe the Mitchel-hedges Skull was made in the 20th century, by the fact, she has found evidence to her satisfaction which proved the use of modern technology, in the creation, and the making of the Mitchell-Hedges skull. I have to accept her word for that.

However my point of view would be she is a mainstream person working for the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, with the bringing up of alternative opinions about certain human events, would be looked down on, for host of many different reasons. She could be just assuming from her personal knowledge of studied history, and its her right, technology, like this couldn't possibly have been around in the ancient past? She is of course right, because as far, as the ordinary person knows, no such technology used in the making of the Mitchell-Hedges has been located in the ancient past, but still she found herself staring, at an item that made no sense to her views about the ancient World!!

Lance, as well what she found, stiil doesn't explain away the HP conclusions, that you still haven't addressed here on he forum. HP had no bias either way with the outcome of results.

Dr Walsh, is a Mesoamerican specialist, and her profession Lance, doesn't make her expert about how Crystal skulls were made, origins she can speculate with. The real experts would have to be the people working at HP Crystal Lab Santa Clara, who'd tested the Mitchell-Hedges Skull, and it was their conclusion "the technical precision in making another skull like the Mitchell-Hedges would require "300' man-years of effort'

I don't believe Mitchell-Hedges would have even taking one year out of his life to fake this never mind the 300 years assumed by HP, which would be many lifetimes of lots of people not just one person!



 
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