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Budd Hopkins - The Pioneer of Abduction Research by Kay Wilson

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Why can't I think that Walton is a liar? There's no way he can prove what he says he saw and that what happened actualy happened. Same thing goes for the Alagash people.
About the Khoury case, they brought up the point that this guys' proof of an alien was the analysis of the hair that proved it was HUMAN DNA - rare human DNA, but human DNA none the less. If it was alien DNA it would have been alien, no? I just think that there's more to this than saying, yeah, it was an alien visitor. He saw them when he was in bed. Can you say hypnagogic state? Wikimedia Error

That is a far more likely explanation than any kind of alien abduction.

Umm, everyone admits that the analysis results didn't specifically say ET. But they were extremely strange. Considering that the guy had a bizarre story and the hair turned out to be equally as bizarre as the tale is what makes it interesting. But it's funny that you consider it to be so incredible for anyone to contemplate it might have been an alien hair when the witness says that's what it is! He didn't say it came from an aardvark, a bigfoot, or Elvis. That's why people aren't immediately thinking of those other things.
 
I heard the show, opinions were given, your opinion exactly.

Yes, because I agree with them. I'm not stealing their opinion. It's one that makes sense. Like I said, it's cool if you want to think otherwise. That's totally fine.

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:55 PM ----------

Umm, everyone admits that the analysis results didn't specifically say ET. But they were extremely strange. Considering that the guy had a bizarre story and the hair turned out to be equally as bizarre as the tale is what makes it interesting. But it's funny that you consider it to be so incredible for anyone to contemplate it might have been an alien hair when the witness says that what it is! He didn't say it came from an aardvark, a bigfoot, or Elvis. That's why people aren't thinking of those things.

Yes, they were strange. It doesn't mean it's otherworldly though. Look at this poor guy who has a disease that makes him look like a tree:

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That's absolutely bizarre, but not from another planet. This is the point I'm trying to make. There are so many strange things on Earth, there's no reason to conclude that what happened to this guy involved aliens.
 
Yes, because I agree with them. I'm not stealing their opinion. It's one that makes sense. Like I said, it's cool if you want to think otherwise. That's totally fine.

Lol, Angelo, I'll bet you haven't even read the book. It's funny, you'll go out and read debunker reports but trying to get you to take a glance at the other side of the story is like trying to walk on water.

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

Sure, it's just another one of those convenient coincidences that the guy just happened to have a story like something out of the Twilight Zone and then the DNA results of the hair, also purely by coincidence, just happened to also seem right out of the Twilight Zone. No cause and effect at all. Nope, couldn't be.
 
Lol, Angelo, I'll bet you haven't even read the book. It's funny, you'll go out and read debunker reports but trying to get you to take a glance at the other side of the story is like trying to walk on water.

But that's the thing. I do look at both sides of the story. Christ, I'm a moderator on a paranormal forum - you can't say I don't look at both sides of the story! It's just that there are so many explanations before we have to go to the alien one.

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------

Lol, Angelo, I'll bet you haven't even read the book. It's funny, you'll go out and read debunker reports but trying to get you to take a glance at the other side of the story is like trying to walk on water.

---------- Post added at 03:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:58 PM ----------

Sure, it's just another one of those convenient coincidences that the guy just happened to have a story like something out of the Twilight Zone and then the DNA results of the hair, also purely by coincidence, just happened to also seem right out of the Twilight Zone. No cause and effect at all. Nope, couldn't be.

That sounds almost as bad as those people that think vaccines cause autism. However, thinking that aliens visiting us is harmless.
 
But that's the thing. I do look at both sides of the story. Christ, I'm a moderator on a paranormal forum - you can't say I don't look at both sides of the story! It's just that there are so many explanations before we have to go to the alien one.

---------- Post added at 03:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:01 PM ----------



That sounds almost as bad as those people that think vaccines cause autism. However, thinking that aliens visiting us is harmless.

Bullshit, Angelo. I've already caught you before. You bragged about Dunning's Hill piece despite the entire thing being propaganda. Early on it flat-out LIES to the reader by saying Barney never thought of aliens until he heard Betty's dreams and was hypnotized. But EVERYONE who has read even a tiny scrap of information about it knows that Barney claimed to have seen aliens from the very start because he consciously remembered seeing them through his binoculars. It is absolute fact that is part of his testimony. Dunning LIED early on in the article and then everything following that just built on that lie as he spent paragraphs explaining how the total fiction he invented somehow destroyed the case. Now if you had read anything about the Hill case you would have known just a few sentences into his article that he was LYING. But you didn't which makes it obvious you knew jack shit about it just as it is likely you know next to nothing about the Khoury case.
 
Bullshit, Angelo. I've already caught you before. You bragged about Dunning's Hill piece despite the entire thing being propaganda. Early on it flat-out LIES to the reader by saying Barney never thought of aliens until he heard Betty's dreams and was hypnotized. But EVERYONE who has read even a tiny scrap of information about it knows that Barney claimed to have seen aliens from the very start because he consciously remembered seeing them through his binoculars. It is absolute fact that is part of his testimony. Dunning LIED early on in the article and then everything following that just built on that lie as he spent paragraphs explaining how the total fiction he invented somehow destroyed the case. Now if you had read anything about the Hill case you would have known just a few sentences into his article that he was LYING. But you didn't which makes it obvious you knew jack shit about it just as it is likely you know next to nothing about the Khoury case.

Wow dude. Relax.
If you want to think these people were abducted by aliens, please do so. I'm not going to argue with you. My personal opinion on alien abductions remains the same: confused people, mental illness, or liars seeking notoriety. There are probably a few more variables in there, but those are the main ones.
 
Basque/Gaelic DNA found in the blonde hair.

Outside Root-Tissue... Mitochondrial sequence variation... 16,223 16,255 16,278, 16,294.... number of clones 6/7

These numbers the four substitutions are genetic markers to trace your family history Angel .. The Women had Basque-Gaelic genetics...

Exploring this further 16,223, 16,278 the two sequences here, is only found in 3% cent of the world population alive today... Caucasians from the UK and Northern Spain mainly...

People from the same place in the world with the sequence 16,223, 16,278, 16,255.. the percentage reduces 1% in the UK and 0.5% Northern Spain

No human in the current database contains a fourth substitution... with the 16,294 added on!

What the evidence in total is suggesting to me is, a theory ok , Sometime in the past (human past) NonHumans or other Humans from another planet visited the Earth and interbred with local humans on this planet.

This blonde woman had an human ancestor or descendant (it sort of like the missing link) who lived in the past, this would account for the Rare-DNA been found in the hair... Basques and Celtics involved in this stuff if it happened not that strange. Ireland has a very ancient past. Newgrange after all was build 1,000 years before the Pyramids allegedly got build and fact is the Tuatha can be traced to Egyptian legend .

The Mitochondrial DNA AND Y Chromosome Haplotype found in the Blonde Hair do pinpoint a location. That is Western Connaught Ireland. That is were the Tuatha de Dannann settled according to the texts and legends and myths and that area of Ireland today is mainly Irish speaking pure 100% Irish born. For me this case from Australia is just confirming my theories about fairy lore.
 
The original analysis confirmed the hair came from someone who was biologically close to normal human genetics, but of an unusual racial type - a rare Chinese Mongoloid type - one of the rarest human lineages known, that lies further from the human mainstream than any other except for African pygmies and aboriginals. There was the strange anomaly of it being blonde to clear instead of black, as would be expected from the Asian type mitrochondrial DNA.
The The original DNA work was done on the shaft of the hair. Fascinating further anomalies were found in the root of the hair. Two types of DNA were found depending on where the mitrochondrial DNA testing occurs, namely confirming the rare Chinese type DNA in the shaft and indicating a rare possible Basque/Gaelic type DNA in the root section.

http://ufoesa.com/peter-khoury-experiences-1992-pt3.html

For me the oddest part is that there are two types of DNA, one set in the shaft of the hair, another in the root of the hair.
How does that happen ?

Peters polygraph test here (at the ten min mark)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfvjc5_my-mum-talks-to-aliens-3-3_tech
 
If you want to think these people were abducted by aliens, please do so. I'm not going to argue with you. My personal opinion on alien abductions remains the same: confused people, mental illness, or liars seeking notoriety. There are probably a few more variables in there, but those are the main ones.

Well hopefully I just belong to the first catagory but who knows:rolleyes:
I guess what most people who are interested in this want to figure out is:
1. Is this a psychological/mental phenomenon (neural, chemical, hormanal etc)?
2. Is it a 'mystical' phenomenon (a la Mack, some kind or collective consciousness a la Jung, control mechanism a la Vallee)
3. Is it a physical phenomon (a la Hopkins and Jacobs)?

Whatever is going on it's got to addess all the elements (dare I say evidence?) of the various experiences. Maybe it's a mix of all three explanations and more. But multiple witness cases or physical markings/implants don't sit well with it just being a mental phenomenon. But maybe science will address this issue at some future point and explain how a strong experience triggered by brain chemicals can alter the reality of the physical body or others around them. I can't rule anything out. Personally I feel most comfortable with the second explanation. The first is at bit too Nietschean for me (God is dead and all that:)) the third is too disturbing!! But I really don't know at this point.

Actually that's one of the reasons I started this thread. Whatever it turns out to be I think alot of the researchers are genuinely trying to address these experiences people have that mainstream society has no place for. Disagreement, qualified critique and discussion keep us all challenged in the search. But IMO Rainey's hit-piece on Hopkins, under the guise of service to the community, was actually a big disservice. While this phenomenon remains a mystery, the possibility that beings from anoter place/dimension are interacting with us and physically taking genetic material for some kind of breeding should not be dismissed out of hand. We would do so at our peril.
 
Can I just say that Travis Walton is a liar and he just wanted to gain some notoriety? That's pretty much what i think at this point.
Until I see an actual alien abduction that is completely documented with physical evidence, I'll continue to think that abductees have either confused a pshycological episode, or they are flat out lying.
This week's episode of The Skeptics Guide to The Universe pretty much dismantled that case of the guy that had sex with the blonde amazon lady from outer space. It's a pretty elaborate way of getting out of cheating on your wife.

Wow! Where ya bin all this time, Angelo? It only took you 80 posts to chime in with the inevitable "I don't believe there is anything paranormal happening in the world so therefore Khoury and Walton must be lying.", comment.:)
I suppose it's easier to say that. It doesn't require any research or even reading the full account.
I suppose it's easier to believe Phil Klass who had an agenda, distorted the facts and bent them to suit his preconceived opinion of Walton. Much easier to believe the National Enquirer's funding of their hand picked polygraph tester and his opinion over the multiple ones he and his crew had passed.
And of course it's easier to think that Peter Khoury must have been having an affair with a blonde headed, albino, mongolian who just happened to be in town that night, who thought she'd just drop in with one of her dual DNA buddies and fuck his arse off before tying up his blue veined junket pumper with a strand of her hair like a present from an alien tooth fairy. Of course he must be lying.
The point is that these types of dismissive, offhand, disingenuous explanations are even more bizarre than the the ones they are designed to debunk. We don't know what happened to Peter and Travis let alone assign explanations like "they were abducted/raped by aliens!" OR "he must be lying/he was having an affair!" We don't really have a reason, I think, to doubt that something anomalous happened to them. What that was is just guess work.
 
Why can't I think that Walton is a liar? There's no way he can prove what he says he saw and that what happened actualy happened. Same thing goes for the Alagash people.

You can think whatever you like, Angelo. You can think Barack Obama is a reptilian alien from the draco system, or that Travis Walton is a liar. Thinking something does not make it so, and doesn't mean anyone is ever going to take any notice of you.

I would just advise you to consider that in the Walton case there were seven separate witnesses to the incident. All seven reported exactly the same thing. Not one has changed a single detail of their story for 35 years. Some of them didn't even like each other, and never got along. Even Mike Rogers and Travis were very cold to each other for 10 years or more. One of the other witnesses even came round to Travis's house to punch him out, he got so upset by the publicity the case generated for him, and the ridicule he was exposed to by association with it. BUT HE NEVER RECANTED ANY DETAIL OF HIS TESTIMONY, NOR DECLARED ANY OF THE OTHER WITNESSES A LIAR.

Now it doesn't matter a damn what you think or say, you are never gonna make any difference to the unshakeable testimony of seven separate witnesses in this case, nor to the fact that Travis was missing and then turned up after five days and nights - dirty, dishevelled, dehydrated, frightened and confused - following a three-day search through the hills by the police and local volunteers. It just comes down, in the end, to your personal ideology which can't accept that this encounter, resistant to all debunkerism for 35 years, might in fact have happened as reported. No debunker has ever presented any evidence of any kind to discredit this case. To discredit the Walton case they have to state that all seven witnesses were liars, and have continued to lie consistently for 35 years, with no benefit, no pay-off, just ridicule to contend with. This is character assassination and defamation on the strength of no evidence except the stupidity of personal ideology, which as usual (as with creationists and new-agers) triumphs over multiply corroborative testimony. The attitude, basically, stinks. Nothing personal.

---------- Post added at 05:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 AM ----------

About the Khoury case, they brought up the point that this guys' proof of an alien was the analysis of the hair that proved it was HUMAN DNA - rare human DNA, but human DNA none the less. If it was alien DNA it would have been alien, no? I just think that there's more to this than saying, yeah, it was an alien visitor. He saw them when he was in bed.

Human DNA certainly, but assembled in a way which can never occur in a "natural" human. Just for starters, it is impossible for a natural human to have two different and separate types of mitochondrial DNA present. This would mean the person must have had two separate biological mothers.

Have you even read the lab reports, or Bill Chalker's book? Contacted either Peter Khoury or Bill Chalker in person, or bothered to do any in-depth investigation of the case? Debunkers are generally ignorant, lazy, ideologically-driven charlatans but these qualities don't seem to apply to you, so I was just wondering how much proactive investigation you really do.

Explain how five genetic substitutions/deletions in the DNA from the blond hair in the Khoury case, which have never been seen on any human, EVER, and would make the native resistant to virtually all lethal viruses including HIV and smallpox, could possibly occur by accident. Explain how the natural occurrence of these features might be possible, let alone plausible. The evidence of advanced and sophisticated bio-genetic engineering from human source material is, surely, the only possible explanation: remember Sherlock Holmes' famous dictum that when you have discounted the impossible then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Hybrid-type engineering? Looks like it. Explain how, biologically, we could possibly be dealing with anything else here. You have my attention.


And BTW the suggestion that Peter Khoury might have been having an affair and wanted to fool his wife with some outlandish explanation is not only groundless defamatory character assassination, but would betray knowledge of the facts of the case to be close to zero. The idea is so preposterous, so ridiculous in light of the evidence, that it's not even funny.

---------- Post added at 06:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------

The Mitochondrial DNA AND Y Chromosome Haplotype found in the Blonde Hair do pinpoint a location. That is Western Connaught Ireland. That is were the Tuatha de Dannann settled according to the texts and legends and myths and that area of Ireland today is mainly Irish speaking pure 100% Irish born. For me this case from Australia is just confirming my theories about fairy lore.

Kieran

There were many anomalies revealed by the analysis of this peculiar hair sample: the rare genetic types, the substitutions, the deletions, the conclusion that the hair should not even be blond but dark.

However the one glaring, inescapable anomaly which needs to be right at the top of the list for consideration is that the hair contained two separate kinds of mitochondrial DNA. This is impossible for a normal, biological human. People really need to get this. It means the woman had two separate biological mothers. How is this possible? What does it tell us?

Work it out.
 
I prefer to explore the posibility that what has happened to these people is earthbound as opposed to other. You don't think that alien abduction proponents that write books about the subject have an agenda? I really have no agenda since this topic takes up no more than sliver of time in my life. I'm not attending conventions or anything like that. I almost didn't want to comment initially, but I decided to anyway. I'll let you go back to discussing how amazing the experiences of these people are. It's too bad you refuse to accept any other explanation other than an abduction of somekind.
 
AI ,
Wow your on fire and hope you don't get abducted and they don't use anything unwanted towards you:) I have to agree there is charlatans in all walks of life who make a living out of tricking people that's why they should go to straight to jail but I don't know about Mr Travis Walton ?

Peace,
BF
 


i

---------- Post added at 06:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 AM ----------



Kieran

There were many anomalies revealed by the analysis of this peculiar hair sample: the rare genetic types, the substitutions, the deletions, the conclusion that the hair should not even be blond but dark.

However the one glaring, inescapable anomaly which needs to be right at the top of the list for consideration is that the hair contained two separate kinds of mitochondrial DNA. This is impossible for a normal, biological human. People really need to get this. It means the woman had two separate biological mothers. How is this possible? What does it tell us?

Work it out.


I'd agree, I have said as much in my posts previously. We both are closer to agreement than this discussion might suggest!

No Human being alive today has two separate kinds of Y chromosome- Mitochondrial DNA, so this woman was no-ordinary Human, but she is biologically close to human genetics. The DNA was taking from a hair not the body of this woman. So there is a slim chance this woman had a hair-transplant in her life, cause of an accident or some disease, it still an option to consider!. So there would be a grafting of hair over another, it would explain the two separate kinds of Mitochondrial been found in the one blonde hair sample. But You'd expect the hair to be black upon finding Chinese/ Mongoloid DNA in the sample.

The Basque/ Gaelic DNA, was found in the root section of the blonde-hair sample, so if there was a hair-transplant, that is her original DNA marker not the Chinese/ Mongoloid DNA type.

This woman, may have been, Biomedically engineered. The evidence in this case is pointing that way, I agree Archie but like I said before. There is no human being alive today that has Basque-Gaelic DNA with four substitutions three yes not four which was found in the root-tissue.. the Chinese/Mongoloid DNA type has five substitutions.

That is why I think we need to look back into our past to explain this case, there is no other explanation. I'm open to suggestions if you have any Archie to explain it? but the fact is nonhumans could not have got the DNA- material in our present- time.

The Takla Makan mummies found in China, lot of the them looked Celt like.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy10.jpg

In the late 1980's, perfectly preserved 3000-year-old mummies began appearing in a remote Taklamakan desert. They had long reddish-blond hair, European features and didn't appear to be the ancestors of modern-day Chinese people. Archaeologists now think they may have been the citizens of an ancient civilization that existed at the crossroads between China and Europe.

Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”, said:"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian. The modern and ancient DNA tell the same story.”

The discoveries in the 1980s of the undisturbed 4,000-year-old ”Beauty of Loulan” and the younger 3,000-year-old body of the ”Charchan Man” are legendary in world archaeological circles for the fine state of their preservation and for the wealth of knowledge they bring to modern research. In the second millennium BC, the oldest mummies, like the Loulan Beauty, were the earliest settlers in the Tarim Basin.


http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/goldilocks1.jpg


Tocharian female mummy with long flaxen blond hair, perfectly preserved in ponytails. Items of weaved material, identical to Celtic cloth, definitively proved the Indo-European origins of the Tocharians, who not only built the fantastic Silk Road cities which today lie deserted, but who are also credited with bringing Buddhism, horses, the saddle, and iron working to China. This mummy was approximately 40-years old, was found in the main chamber of the same tomb. Her tall stature, high nose, and red hair indicate that she was of European descent.

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummy02.jpg

Tocharian man with red-blond hair; his clear European features still visible after nearly 3,500 years in his desert grave in Taklamakan. This mummified man was approximately 40 years old at the time of his death
 
I prefer to explore the posibility that what has happened to these people is earthbound as opposed to other. You don't think that alien abduction proponents that write books about the subject have an agenda? I really have no agenda since this topic takes up no more than sliver of time in my life. I'm not attending conventions or anything like that. I almost didn't want to comment initially, but I decided to anyway. I'll let you go back to discussing how amazing the experiences of these people are. It's too bad you refuse to accept any other explanation other than an abduction of somekind.

Virtually everyone here leaves open the possibility that a given case has earthbound conclusions. I've been interested in this shit for nearly 20 years but the incidents that interest me is a very small number. I have arrived at prosaic conclusions for the majority of them. The difference appears to be that some of us are able to admit when a particular claim is unusually difficult to explain in a way that takes into account all of the details and still makes sense. If there isn't a prosaic explanation that is logical available as of yet then why try inventing illogical ones, and by illogical I mean ones that are in direct contradiction to the facts or simply ignores them? I don't get why it's such a bad thing with some of these cases for skeptics to simply say, "Well, I can't explain that one. But I'm still not convinced aliens are visiting here" rather than feeling they have to offer an explanation for everything even if the explanation is blatantly erroneous since it distorts, sweeps under the rug, or contradicts what is known about the incident. It's as though some debunkers take a "the ends justify the means" standpoint, like they are saying, "I know I don't have a real explanation for this case but I also know it CAN'T be ETs because ETs visiting here is IMPOSSIBLE. So if I fudge or distort some things to convince people it's something else that's OK because in the end even if that given explanation is wrong at least it's more sensible than their wrong answer." That sort of thing is no more admirable or intellectual than what the true believers exercise.
 
AI ,
Wow your on fire and hope you don't get abducted and they don't use anything unwanted towards you:) I have to agree there is charlatans in all walks of life who make a living out of tricking people that's why they should go to straight to jail but I don't know about Mr Travis Walton ?

Peace,
BF

Thanks for the concern Blowfish. Being abducted by aliens is quite low on my list of worries right now. It's down there with "death by Sharktopus."

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With regards to Walton, one will have to take his word for it, and that of his friends. There have been much bigger lies told. Then again, I don't know him, so if he's telling the truth, and aliens did mess with him, well that's as terrifying as it is unlikely. Again, that's just my opinion, no need to get up in arms for those that think it's a true alien abduction.
If he isn't lying though, and something did abduct him, I think it was probably someone closer to home. Maybe he owed some money to some mobsters, or the military abducted him. Neither of those explanations are more far fetched than beings from another planet having taken him . I don't know how some of you guys can't see that. There are so many possibilities, and my goal is to point that out.
 
Virtually everyone here leaves open the possibility that a given case has earthbound conclusions. I've been interested in this shit for nearly 20 years but the incidents that interest me is a very small number. I have arrived at prosaic conclusions for the majority of them. The difference appears to be that some of us are able to admit when a particular claim is unusually difficult to explain in a way that takes into account all of the details and still makes sense. If there isn't a prosaic explanation that is logical available as of yet then why try inventing illogical ones, and by illogical I mean ones that are in direct contradiction to the facts or simply ignores them? I don't get why it's such a bad thing with some of these cases for skeptics to simply say, "Well, I can't explain that one. But I'm still not convinced aliens are visiting here" rather than feeling they have to offer an explanation for everything even if the explanation is blatantly erroneous since it distorts, sweeps under the rug, or contradicts what is known about the incident. It's as though some debunkers take a "the ends justify the means" standpoint, like they are saying, "I know I don't have a real explanation for this case but I also know it CAN'T be ETs because ETs visiting here is IMPOSSIBLE. So if I fudge or distort some things to convince people it's something else that's OK because in the end even if that given explanation is wrong at least it's more sensible than their wrong answer." That sort of thing is no more admirable or intellectual than what the true believers exercise.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I just put aliens towards the bottom of a very long list, whereas some seem to put it at the top - for the record Wickerman, I don't think you do that; ie automatically think it's aliens. You're almost as skeptical as me when ti comes to these cases.
 
With regards to Walton, one will have to take his word for it, and that of his friends. There have been much bigger lies told. Then again, I don't know him, so if he's telling the truth, and aliens did mess with him, well that's as terrifying as it is unlikely. Again, that's just my opinion, no need to get up in arms for those that think it's a true alien abduction.
If he isn't lying though, and something did abduct him, I think it was probably someone closer to home. Maybe he owed some money to some mobsters, or the military abducted him. Neither of those explanations are more far fetched than beings from another planet having taken him . I don't know how some of you guys can't see that. There are so many possibilities, and my goal is to point that out.

Well at least those explanations are more plausible if unlikely. I'm sure any of those would have been found way before now. It's not like "the rest of us ", as you have described the truly sceptical of us, automatically believe that he must have been abducted by aliens, it's just that we won't accept bullshit, half assed, sweeping pronouncements disguised as an explanation. You will have to do better than that!:)
 
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