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8-23-09 / Eno show

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Without cellular biology, there would be no societies. It's like looking at an elephant and saying it must be entirely made of wrinkly gray stuff! If we didn't start looking on a smaller scale we wouldn't have our understanding of any of the things around us. But a lot of scientist seem to get uncomfortable when the quantum stuff doesn't match things in the macro world, and then want to keep it separate from classical physics. But it's not separate, it is what everything is made of.

Paranormal and New Age-types have slapped quantum physics around, got it drunk and made it their bitch. So I think tons of caution is in order when discussing the paranormal and the quantum.

I'm not qualified to disagree or agree with you on most of this, but I think Drew's statement about cell biology not explaining how societies work is a good analogy. True, cells are at the foundation of life but they haven't even explained the origin of consciousness yet, let alone any of its products (like societies). If concepts like souls, qi, prana have any validity then maybe something entirely nonphysical works toward consciousness, another avenue of study completely!
So maybe quantum mechanics, as we know it today, cannot explain some things in the macro universe simply because another force/principle is at work.

Or, perhaps it will explain everything neatly, but science just hasn't gotten there yet.
 
Paranormal and New Age-types have slapped quantum physics around, got it drunk and made it their bitch. So I think tons of caution is in order when discussing the paranormal and the quantum.

Ha! :D I guess people are looking for some answers.. and science isn't interested in even entertaining the idea. Check out the book "The Self Aware Universe" by Dr. Amit Goswami. He attempts to tie in many things that we would call paranormal by making consensus the basis of matter.

Since he is a theoretical nuclear physicist, he has a handle on the whole topic. He does get a little new agey and a bit too religious for my tastes, but he has some valid ideas.

Another scientist with similar ideas is Dean Radin (The Conscious Universe).

I'm not qualified to disagree or agree with you on most of this, but I think Drew's statement about cell biology not explaining how societies work is a good analogy. True, cells are at the foundation of life but they haven't even explained the origin of consciousness yet, let alone any of its products (like societies). If concepts like souls, qi, prana have any validity then maybe something entirely nonphysical works toward consciousness, another avenue of study completely!
So maybe quantum mechanics, as we know it today, cannot explain some things in the macro universe simply because another force/principle is at work.

Or, perhaps it will explain everything neatly, but science just hasn't gotten there yet.

Exactly my thoughts. Cellular biology would ultimately tell you how societies work, if it can explain our consciousness. But maybe it can't. Things in nature do seem to have their order, be it birds or people or plants. They do what they do. So on a cellular level we are alive. Why are we alive? We don't know that.

I always see quantum mechanics as not answering some of the "how" questions, but more raising some "why" questions. You start to see that some really weird stuff is the basis of everything. Material science tell us that everything makes sense. That's how we predict things and why we have theories that work. But these predictable things are made from unpredictable things. There is a sort of beauty in that, don't you think?
 
I firmly believe in science, and I agree that there's a lot we don't know which all good scientists admit to. What I like about guys like Randi, Shermer, and Penn Gillette, is that they debunk a lot of stuff that does need debunking, like what Randi did to Yuri Geller. I'm a huge fan of Penn and Teller's Bullshit, and they do bring up a lot of good points.

With that said, there's a high probability that there's a lot of stuff we don't know. What bugs the shit out of me though is people that assume just because we don't understand something, people jump to the conclusion of Aliens or Ghosts or whatever. We have absolutely no proof of that other than what people tell us. Could it not be something else? Why is it only a select few that have these experiences, and why don't we have any acceptable documented proof that it is something that isn't natural? It doesn't have to be aliens or ghosts. And if it is Aliens that are taking people in the middle of the night, well that's scary, but we have to admit that there's a strong possibility that it's something all-together more mundane.
 
I firmly believe in science, and I agree that there's a lot we don't know which all good scientists admit to. What I like about guys like Randi, Shermer, and Penn Gillette, is that they debunk a lot of stuff that does need debunking, like what Randi did to Yuri Geller. I'm a huge fan of Penn and Teller's Bullshit, and they do bring up a lot of good points.

But they aren't really qualified in doing so, and Randi's debunking of Geller was pretty flawed as well. Just because Randi can fake bending a spoon doesn't mean that Geller fakes bending spoons. Maybe he did, but that's still a circular argument, and all it proves is that Randi knows how to do a trick where he bends a spoon. Plus he picked out one guy that he was sure was a fake. And Shermer never has anything intelligent to say. He just smirks. And just because Geller might be a fraud doesn't that physic or psychokinesis abilities don't exist. But that's what's implied. The Duke University research showed otherwise.

The problem with those three is they are biased. Bias confirmation is something to be avoided in science. So as far as I'm concerned anything they "prove" is invalid.

But Randi and Gillette are very good entertainers. I've had many enjoyable hours watching them. They were always some of my favorites in that field. But in the end it's their personal opinions and beliefs they are pushing. Their egos want to be right, so they do the whole debunking thing. It's like the whistle blower syndrome.

But yeah, charlatans need to be exposed! But debunking a whole subject is not the way to do it.

With that said, there's a high probability that there's a lot of stuff we don't know. What bugs the shit out of me though is people that assume just because we don't understand something, people jump to the conclusion of Aliens or Ghosts or whatever.

Ghosts are a name we have given to the phenomenon. It doesn't explain what it is. It is presumed to be the spirits of the deceased, I guess based on their appearance and circumstances, as in the case I presented. The phenomenon seemed to be attached to the woman's belongings. That doesn't mean it was her, but it probably had something to do with her. We all thought it was her, but it was a vague shape of a person with no details. besides the shadow we saw the shape move past us several times. And why does the room get cold? These are physical effects that should be able to be measured.

You have to think that this stuff has been seen for countless generations, and people have come to conclusions based on their observations of the events. But that doesn't explain what it is, just what it seems to be.

Aliens? That's a tricky one. I don't think they are people coming from another planet somewhere, but that can't be proven or disproven. They might appear as aliens because that's what we want to see. But then I have to temper that argument with my experience as a child, when the images of "grays" didn't exist in our culture.

Probably any answer we come up with will be wrong and too simplistic.


We have absolutely no proof of that other than what people tell us. Could it not be something else? Why is it only a select few that have these experiences, and why don't we have any acceptable documented proof that it is something that isn't natural? It doesn't have to be aliens or ghosts. And if it is Aliens that are taking people in the middle of the night, well that's scary, but we have to admit that there's a strong possibility that it's something all-together more mundane.

At the present time all we have is what people experienced, and the occasional photos of ghosts and UFOs. But let's not throw that out with the bath water. And lets not make proclamations as to what it all means. We have to define what a ghost is, or any paranormal apparition.

We also have to think that perhaps it is an advanced race of beings, totally leaving out where they are from and how they got here. Maybe it's something other than living beings like us. We have no concept of anything like that. So they might be able to do all sorts of things as people observe them doing, and they have enough control over us to not be photographed if they don't want to, except for the UFOs themselves. They seem to parade those in front of people all the time. They put on a big show with lights and such.

Maybe if we photographed one of the (insert name for beings) they might not look like what we observe at all. Or like anything.

Sometimes I think all this stuff is a glitch where things pop in from some part of reality we know nothing about. Maybe they see us when we see them and they go and tell their people, and then they get debunked! :D
 
Thanks for your reply David. Although we don't agree on a lot of things, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I appreciate that.
The Duke University study of Geller was what prompted Randi to act on Geller. He really has no psychic ability, he's a magician, pure and simple. I think it bothered Randi, and more recently Criss Angel, that he said he was more than that. Look at some of the insane things Criss Angel does - he NEVER says that it's anything more than a trick. He could easily claim he's more than just a magician and he would definitely have people believing that he's the second coming or something.
Penn and Teller's Bullshit is a fantastic show, and their recent episode on the Apocalypse was a lot of fun. They purposely take a biased stance on a topic, and they admit to that. A few weeks ago, Penn even admitted that they're just a couple of asshole magicians. You can agree or disagree with them.
 
Thanks for your reply David. Although we don't agree on a lot of things, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I appreciate that.
The Duke University study of Geller was what prompted Randi to act on Geller. He really has no psychic ability, he's a magician, pure and simple. I think it bothered Randi, and more recently Criss Angel, that he said he was more than that. Look at some of the insane things Criss Angel does - he NEVER says that it's anything more than a trick. He could easily claim he's more than just a magician and he would definitely have people believing that he's the second coming or something.

I'm sure Geller is probably faking it.

Penn and Teller's Bullshit is a fantastic show, and their recent episode on the Apocalypse was a lot of fun. They purposely take a biased stance on a topic, and they admit to that. A few weeks ago, Penn even admitted that they're just a couple of asshole magicians. You can agree or disagree with them.

Oh I like the show! I also like MythBusters.

I just wouldn't use either as a basis for disproving something, though MythBusters does a better job most of the time, and of course they rarely take on topics like the paranormal.
 
I don't always agree with everything Penn and Teller say, but they always have me laughing. The new age hippie girl that tasted two sides of the same banana and was told that one side was organic and the other was non-organic really had me in stitches. Talk about buying into something.
 
Organic food does have more vitamins in it... I try to by organic when I can, but it's a shame that eating well is so damn expensive.

The bananas we eat might become extinct soon anyway so... eat 'em while you can!
 
Organic food does have more vitamins in it... I try to by organic when I can, but it's a shame that eating well is so damn expensive.

Actually, that hasn't been proven:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.28041v1

But that's just one study. I'm sure there's one study that says the opposite.

For now, I'll eat the amazing local Quebec fruits and veggies we have this time of year, until winter comes and ruins everything.
 
Actually, that hasn't been proven:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.28041v1

But that's just one study. I'm sure there's one study that says the opposite.

For now, I'll eat the amazing local Quebec fruits and veggies we have this time of year, until winter comes and ruins everything.

NPR did a piece about a month ago refuting an article that said organic wasn't any better for you, and had a lot of interesting facts from a few studies showing it was better.

I usually just buy it to get away from the chemicals and help the smaller growers, so I was surprised with the study.
 
NPR did a piece about a month ago refuting an article that said organic wasn't any better for you, and had a lot of interesting facts from a few studies showing it was better.

I usually just buy it to get away from the chemicals and help the smaller growers, so I was surprised with the study.

Like I said, there's always at least one study that'll say the opposite. I'd say just buy whatever makes you happy.
 
y'alls discussion reminded me of a couple things.

My dentist went to Duke and when I was discussing Arigo with him at my last appointment, he talked about going into Duke's parapsychology lab as a student and watching a guy guess 47 out of 50 times what was behind a card (reminded me of ghostbusters!). Because of this experience he said he was really open to all of this type of stuff.

About Geller, I'm relatively young and I don't remember any buzz about Geller growing up on TV and I've never bothered to research him. But, I do remember the doctor who is featured in the book "Arigo:Surgeon of the Rusty Knife" to be someone who believed - at least initially - that Geller was legit.

I don't know either way, but I don't discount Geller completely. Mostly because I can envision a scenario where someone like him who might have some legit paranormal abilities becomes a 'star' and then has to perform something live on TV at an exact moment when he can't even really control his ability at that level.

With the exception of Arigo, I would imagine even people who have some psychic abilities may have a hard time demonstrating their ability at the drop of a hat on TV. For the purposes of show biz, maybe he needed to be prepared to fake it sometimes. Just a little theory I have, literally based on.......... nothing! I don't bother with Randi, but Penn and Teller are pretty entertaining and were both featured in the Run DMC video - "It's Tricky" so they get bonus points for that! I do wonder if Penn or Teller have ever read the Arigo book.

FYI - Kudos for the nice tone at the end of your exchange. Wish more of us could be as respectful
 
I always see quantum mechanics as not answering some of the "how" questions, but more raising some "why" questions. You start to see that some really weird stuff is the basis of everything. Material science tell us that everything makes sense. That's how we predict things and why we have theories that work. But these predictable things are made from unpredictable things. There is a sort of beauty in that, don't you think?

David, I'm not attacking Quantum Science - perhaps I haven't really touched much on this subject for about 8 years - but when I did, I just got the feeling that everybody that was teaching it didn't really understand it either - no matter how many academia medals they were wearing.

As an ex-student of this - I got the wave particle duality bit, but then deriving wave functions on excitation of atomic ionization and the harmonic oscillator and matrix mechanics - it all felt a bit contrived - you could put the equations together and they would fit - but what they actually meant was totally different.

Now the multiverse theories and string theories et al - delivered toward the public imagination is pretty fascinating and entertaining reading - but once you start doing the mathematics and hard thinking you begin to loose ground. It's was all a bit Alice through the looking glass.

Obviously I need to go away and be a particle in a box or maybe not again before I can make any counter-arguments to what your saying - since you are correct in stating my ignorance.

But what you said on the material science I can disagree with - cause it doesn't tell us that everything makes sense, and there are alot of mechanisms in material science world that are still not comprehensively understood - in fact, we have probably only barely scratched the surface.

Many people probably think that conventional science has finally arrived and cannot go further - but as you get closer to the new discoveries and research being undertaken in the traditional sciences you'll find that this statement could not be further from the truth - it's that problem with perspective again.

Everybody expects the doctor to have the cure.
 
Just really scanned this thread. Haven't listened to the episode yet but I have been checking out Paul & Ben Eno's podcast. Its ok. I'm not really one into "ghost hunting" and ghosts in general. But they have a really good 2 hr conversation with Phil Imbrogno. Covers issues regarding Eno's multiverse/multi-dimensional ideas which Imbrogno agrees with to a certain extent, and they also cover (briefly) the Hudson Valley UFO flap. Stone the crows I need a time-machine ... :D. Fascinating stuff.

Anyway that old hoary question of Gravity/Quantum Physics/Newtonian Physics. I think Gravity is not going to be reconciled with current physics unless someone (and I'm thinking at the moment it might have to be me :D) has to go back to Maxwell's ORIGINAL equations and start again.

I think anyone who understands that in mathematics simplicity is beauty, String Theory, and its 26 dimensions or whatever just has to be wrong.

And learning that Hamilton (I think) simplified Maxwells equations and left out the bits that talks about longitudinal waves ... well ... helloooooo :D ... I think we are missing a really important chunk of maths/phys here guys.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Not 100% at the moment so please excuse any incomprehensible ramblings ...
 
guys - QM is a mathematical model to predict phenomena on a certain scale, not necessarily a description of reality. They are two different things. It happens to be extremely accurate -- like several orders of magnitude more accurate than anything else -- but only works at a certain scale.

To paraphrase one of my favourite math profs, "some math happens to intersect with reality but that's not why we do it."

As Feynman once said, "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." And he came up with Quantum Electrodynamics. I think what he's trying to say is that QM is counter-intuitive, non-linear, and extremely difficult to grasp. And it seems that everyone jumps on the bandwagon as the panacea explanation of everything.

So groovy. On a quantum scale the observer effect is important. Cool. Important philosophical implications and heady stuff like entanglement opens the door to psi effects at least theoretically. But we're a long way from demonstrating that quantum effects have anything to do with consciousness. So lots of assumptions there... and lots of science left to do.

As a counter idea I once read an interesting sci-fi story where the whole QM issue was wiped away... in the story everyone lived in a virtual world and the "quantum" effects were simply compression algorithms that caused artefacting at a small scale. Like a .jpg image does at high zoom I guess. The writers of the VM software needed to take some short cuts and left the software to fudge stuff at the small scale where people probably wouldn't look.

Overall, thought the episode was interesting but didn't learn much. Gotta admit, once the guest said that the burden of proof was on the disbelievers I started to shut down. That's downright dark-age thinking.
 
Just really scanned this thread. Haven't listened to the episode yet but I have been checking out Paul & Ben Eno's podcast. Its ok. I'm not really one into "ghost hunting" and ghosts in general. But they have a really good 2 hr conversation with Phil Imbrogno. Covers issues regarding Eno's multiverse/multi-dimensional ideas which Imbrogno agrees with to a certain extent, and they also cover (briefly) the Hudson Valley UFO flap. Stone the crows I need a time-machine ... :D. Fascinating stuff.

Anyway that old hoary question of Gravity/Quantum Physics/Newtonian Physics. I think Gravity is not going to be reconciled with current physics unless someone (and I'm thinking at the moment it might have to be me :D) has to go back to Maxwell's ORIGINAL equations and start again.

I think anyone who understands that in mathematics simplicity is beauty, String Theory, and its 26 dimensions or whatever just has to be wrong.

And learning that Hamilton (I think) simplified Maxwells equations and left out the bits that talks about longitudinal waves ... well ... helloooooo :D ... I think we are missing a really important chunk of maths/phys here guys.

Anyway, just a few thoughts. Not 100% at the moment so please excuse any incomprehensible ramblings ...

I think Philip, has a new book out. I have read a couple of his books. He has a new theory from what i read online yesterday, to why alot of this stuff is appearing in our skys. Everything is linked, but he doesnt dismiss the idea that ETH could be a another explanation to what we are seeing.
 
Amazing stuff, does anyone know of any more info on plasma entities? I'd love to know more about them.

I definitely think plasma based life forms are possible... however I'd be more prone to think that we're seeing intrusions into our universe from other universi (as per the MWH). But that's just my opinion.

My core issue with plasma-based life on earth is simply entropy: plasma is hot and the atmosphere isn't. Why don't they 'freeze' and die? They don't seem to be consuming anything... unless they're nuclear furnaces or something.

Another issue is that plasmas are extremely responsive to electromagnetic fields -- but these guys don't seem to care about the wiring in the house or the camera.

Ball lightning -- a form of plasma -- has been somewhat replicated in the lab but only lasts a short time. Hard to get evolution working in a lifespan of a few seconds. In a star, perhaps, a different story.
 
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