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Who is the most important Ufologist?

Who is the most important Ufologist?

  • John Keel

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Rchard Dolan

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Jerome Clark

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Jacques Vallee

    Votes: 18 50.0%
  • James E. McDonald

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Budd Hopkins

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Coral Lorenzen

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • Stanton Friedman

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • J. Allen Hynek

    Votes: 15 41.7%
  • Jim Moseley

    Votes: 2 5.6%

  • Total voters
    36

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
Einstein did not equal imagination and speculation, or philosophical/spiritual intuitions about oneness, with magic. Don't skew what he said, those words mean different things.

J.K. Rowling = Magic

Einstein = Imagination and creativity combined with the hard (self-)diciplin of the scientist.

Actually no that's not true in the least. That is NOT what he stated. I included the full context of the quote which is typically not included. Bottom Line: Imagination *is* more important than knowledge. Why? Because it encompasses and includes EVERYTHING that will ever be known. He didn't stutter. That is exactly what Einstein meant.
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
you are funny hippie, even after i tell you i am just baiting ya alittle you cant see it, to you its just shit-stirring and calling you names.

i will save it for those with the wit to perceive it in future.
[/\ that's bait/\]


peace brother.

[/\that isnt/\]
I love you really Babs and the way you came in there for young Jimi was very dashing if a little misplaced.

Peace sister.
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
Actually no that's not true in the least. That is NOT what he stated. I included the full context of the quote which is typically not included. Bottom Line: Imagination *is* more important than knowledge. Why? Because it encompasses and includes EVERYTHING that will ever be known. He didn't stutter. That is exactly what Einstein meant.
I wouldn't bother Jeff its a waste of time if you've got your blinkers on.
 

manxman

Paranormal Adept
I love you really Babs and the way you came in there for young Jimi was very dashing if a little misplaced.

Peace sister.

opportunity knocked son, that's all, nothing personal, it's been a hoot, glad i could help smooth things out for you and jimi.

i dont mind picking your dummie's up..
[think about it/\]
 
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Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
meanwhile in other news, this just in, Jerome Clark says he's hanging up the keyboard and the typewriter and calling it quits on book writing in the most recent Paracast on Fate Magazine. i found it interesting that so many more folk voted for Dolan over Clark, when Clark certainly is the more rigorous historian of the field. Dolan is much more open to speculative approaches. but then Clark was also going on about writing a blistering and scathing rendering of Keel who scored higher than both of them. Keel obviously has strong appeal for his own, "magical thinking." he's the original out of the box thinker, scant on fact and happy to magnify and blame demons from other dimensions. really, some of it sounds so Ray Palmer, but inventive as all get out. he points his lens in places you didn't think of looking.

but what does that mean if the reading public favours Keel significantly over the actual academic historian? maybe we don't want the scant truth and prefer to have the inventive and imaginative ways of thinking about the whole situation - hence Vallee's top of the poll position. one day i'm sure someone will write a scathing rendering of Clark - well at least for his participation in the Cortile fiasco, though that's already been done. still, i'm a little disappointed in Clark calling it quits; it's kind of like the same disappointment i had when i found out just what a limited run Kolchak had.
at typewriter.png
i suppose the UFO Encyclopaedia second edition is enough along with Unexplained the third edition, or at least he says he's said all he has to say. i've always appreciated his approach to describing reality as ragged, not always filled with straight lines, but loaded with strange experiences. at the same time he won't accept the odd coincidences as reasons for building a conspiracy. he had a strong appreciation for the patently bizarre, whether it's seeing a bunch of centaurs crossing the road in front of your car or diving deep in to the UFO experience. his approach to event anomalies vs. experience anomalies is still the best paradigm that i use to understand this stuff, well that and believing that many different things could be true at the same time as well.
 
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S.R.L.

Paranormal Adept
Most everyone holds their own strong opinions when it comes to the researchers they look toward, whether it is purely for entertainment or possibly for the insight of a true mystery. There are many researchers who are experiencers, as there are some that are not. Some forum members, (like researchers), lean toward alternative theories offered other than the ETH. There are researchers who have been misinformed, or duped, and in having that occur, bid farewell to a sizable amount of their past credibility. Moreover, there are those researchers whose moral compass has been radically altered, or they are simply diluted.

After years of following in the attempt of understanding what may be possibly traveling afoot, even the diehard could become jaded.

Mostly, what has been gleaned is the fact that many have been lead astray, over the threshold of sound reasoning, into the land of true believing, blind faith, and of complete ignorance. Also, I am fairly certain that some of this forum’s aficionados have been duped at least once.

It is my sole opinion that at this particular juncture in time, the non-Ufologist, someone outside of this field, in the possession of sterling integrity and unimpeachable credibility, may share in the illumination of this subject. Perhaps, some highly credentialed scholars having received tenure, who have mastered varied disciplines in unrelated fields. They are out there, and suggested would be a curiosity akin to ours. Not to provide the answer, rather, in the contribution of the required objective and meaningful insight, wherever that may lie. This is not to say that there are not writers, authors, and researchers embedded within this genre capable of illuminating these true mysteries, however, a heightened degree of sensitivity may be required when in the attempt of distinguishing the signal from the noise.

It was Amie Michel who was first to provide J.Vallee with the impetus in considering research of aerial anomalies. Vallee, along with his late wife created models showing structured patterns emerging as aerial phenomena. After having been presented with this research, Hynek reversed his position as the government’s debunker, and in doing so, turned toward advocacy.

During Ted X, (2011), Vallee suggested that the concept of dimensions be abandoned, as to be considered a cultural artifact.

As science progresses, comes the changing scientific world view, as it appears that both String Theory and multidimensionality may be on the cusp of becoming passé. Just recently, research conducted utilizing the BICEP2 has produced strong evidence of cosmic inflation and with that in which lies potentiality of multiple universes. It is findings like this which may, (understandably), drive researchers and forum members alike in modifying their opinions when considering the possible emergence of aerial anomalies, and paranormal phenomena.
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
Most everyone holds their own strong opinions when it comes to the researchers they look toward, whether it is purely for entertainment or possibly for the insight of a true mystery. There are many researchers who are experiencers, as there are some that are not. Some forum members, (like researchers), lean toward alternative theories offered other than the ETH. There are researchers who have been misinformed, or duped, and in having that occur, bid farewell to a sizable amount of their past credibility. Moreover, there are those researchers whose moral compass has been radically altered, or they are simply diluted.

After years of following in the attempt of understanding what may be possibly traveling afoot, even the diehard could become jaded.

Mostly, what has been gleaned is the fact that many have been lead astray, over the threshold of sound reasoning, into the land of true believing, blind faith, and of complete ignorance. Also, I am fairly certain that some of this forum’s aficionados have been duped at least once.

It is my sole opinion that at this particular juncture in time, the non-Ufologist, someone outside of this field, in the possession of sterling integrity and unimpeachable credibility, may share in the illumination of this subject. Perhaps, some highly credentialed scholars having received tenure, who have mastered varied disciplines in unrelated fields. They are out there, and suggested would be a curiosity akin to ours. Not to provide the answer, rather, in the contribution of the required objective and meaningful insight, wherever that may lie. This is not to say that there are not writers, authors, and researchers embedded within this genre capable of illuminating these true mysteries, however, a heightened degree of sensitivity may be required when in the attempt of distinguishing the signal from the noise.

It was Amie Michel who was first to provide J.Vallee with the impetus in considering research of aerial anomalies. Vallee, along with his late wife created models showing structured patterns emerging as aerial phenomena. After having been presented with this research, Hynek reversed his position as the government’s debunker, and in doing so, turned toward advocacy.

During Ted X, (2011), Vallee suggested that the concept of dimensions be abandoned, as to be considered a cultural artifact.


As science progresses, comes the changing scientific world view, as it appears that both String Theory and multidimensionality may be on the cusp of becoming passé. Just recently, research conducted utilizing the BICEP2 has produced strong evidence of cosmic inflation and with that in which lies potentiality of multiple universes. It is findings like this which may, (understandably), drive researchers and forum members alike in modifying their opinions when considering the possible emergence of aerial anomalies, and paranormal phenomena.

Could someone please provide a link to this Ted X talk?
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept

Thank you S.R.L.! I cannot hear anything (the computer does not have speakers I am on) in terms of videos at work. I'll watch as soon as I am able at home. I read the MIT (paper) release on first evidence for parallel universes about a month ago. Very interesting!!
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
Most everyone holds their own strong opinions...

During Ted X, (2011), Vallee suggested that the concept of dimensions be abandoned, as to be considered a cultural artifact.

As science progresses, comes the changing scientific world view, as it appears that both String Theory and multidimensionality may be on the cusp of becoming passé. Just recently, research conducted utilizing the BICEP2 has produced strong evidence of cosmic inflation and with that in which lies potentiality of multiple universes. It is findings like this which may, (understandably), drive researchers and forum members alike in modifying their opinions when considering the possible emergence of aerial anomalies, and paranormal phenomena.

Vallee is certainly no dummy and I will be watching this video again several times. What an amazingly volatile scientific time we are living in! I watched the video this morning before leaving for work as I ran out of stream last night after watching the four part Clark sse talk. Yep, Vallee has climbed aboard with respect for what is the most cutting edge of theoretical QM/QP (information particle) possible. Consciousness is where all this points to. IMO, the study of consciousness will reveal the workings of what Jerry Clark refers to as experience anomalies. Apart from just calling them "anomalies of consciousness". It's interesting in midst of such a perspective that all knowledge is relevant. There is no escape. Never deviating from a natural system of ordered information.
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
So the one thread that lingers then in all these studies is the tricksterish element that seems to weave its way through so many commentators, researchers and investigators' work. Even Clark frequently talks about the bizarre comical and jocular aspects of the paranormal, whether it's encounters with strange humanoids or UFO events & experiences. In each case the joke is always on the witness.

What' that all about? If it's an information exchange at molecular and atomic levels is it just us then, quick to see patterns? Sad soleful human so quick to see the irony in one's life.

timthumb.php
 

Christopher O'Brien

Back in the Saddle Aginn
Staff member
Yeah, w/ all these posts about who is the most important ufologist, I haven't seen much mention of that (all-important out-of-the-box thinking) element that will be crucial to taking this sad morass to the next level. IMHO this next phase of evolved thinking involves acknowledgment of the "trickster mechanism" — as pointed out by Robert "Burnt State" Brandstetter. Forest-for-the-trees, folks!
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
So the one thread that lingers then in all these studies is the tricksterish element that seems to weave its way through so many commentators, researchers and investigators' work. Even Clark frequently talks about the bizarre comical and jocular aspects of the paranormal, whether it's encounters with strange humanoids or UFO events & experiences. In each case the joke is always on the witness.

What' that all about? If it's an information exchange at molecular and atomic levels is it just us then, quick to see patterns? Sad soleful human so quick to see the irony in one's life.

timthumb.php





Thats one way of looking at it. There are others. It's not to say its a level in a computer game, what we could be experiencing is a "evol-illusioary" kickstart.

"The Fool represents a leap of faith. It is the transition from the known to the unknown. Nothing ventured nothing gained is the motto. Unless you are willing to take a chance in life you rarely get ahead. The Fool card symbolizes this leap into the unknown. [what is left that is unknown other than the absurd or the irrational?]

The Red feather in the hat is the determination of the person. The white flower is his purity of spirit and lack of malice in making this bold move. The yellow sky and boots indicate a lot of thought has gone into this action even though it appears foolish from the outside it is very much a calculated risk by the person.

The dog at his feet is the world of fixed belief trying to hold him back and dissuade him from taking this dangerous step. Others always try to hold us back when we want to try something new and radical. It's worth listening to that advice but unless you take a chance you will never do something new and succeed. You may also fall, but that is the challenge. Are you brave enough to take this leap?"
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
So the one thread that lingers then in all these studies is the tricksterish element that seems to weave its way through so many commentators, researchers and investigators' work. Even Clark frequently talks about the bizarre comical and jocular aspects of the paranormal, whether it's encounters with strange humanoids or UFO events & experiences. In each case the joke is always on the witness.

What' that all about? If it's an information exchange at molecular and atomic levels is it just us then, quick to see patterns? Sad soleful human so quick to see the irony in one's life.

timthumb.php

What are you talking or posting about here my brother!? Why must you seem so lost and without paranormal hope? Who has pissed upon thy parade? Why cannot you simply see this incredibly ALIVE paranormal natural jungle in which we all thrive? Do you not yet understand the misery of company, and yet the joy of the same?

ah...thank you for putting up with my bullshit. But it's very real heart felt bs nonetheless. Listen, you're missing the point here, Burnt. Consciousness *is* the environment we share. Consciousness *is* information, or at least damn relevant to it. Every experience we have consists of cognitively decoded information as being what I can only imagine as being that which is "carried" by consciousness. Don't ask me for any mechanistic bullshit explanations of process either. I'll leave that to those with far more so superior left side brain orientations and those nifty mathematical models they build. I don't pretend to be a scientist. I am just a man that has given both this consciousness modeling aspect of exploratory process and the paranormal a great deal of thought over the last 5 years. Nothing more. I am referring here of course to the relationship between the two. Not either individually.

You of all people should know that this phenomena cannot be isolated to the individual. It may not involve beings from outer space because for all we know outer space may not exist for them in accord with their specific environmental variables. Their space, or lack thereof, may be the stuff that carries information. Perhaps perception for them naturally starts or baselines at what to us would seem more akin to the infinitesimal with respect for our orientation to physicality. Imagine them using the human Akashic record in the extrapolatory sense, to appeal to the imagery based beings (that'd be us!) to not only convey ID based imagery in terms of self representation from such an informational record, but to literally navigate the natural order of this informational universe in which we live natively, according to their own native consciousness relationship. This consisting of their specific, indigenous perceptual orientation to as much, and what that represents to us can only be described in our natural relationship cognitively to consciousness, as being unity. This is to state that we both (species) occupy the same universe, but live in different aspects of it environmentally. So no, I don't think we can rule out an external agent just yet. In fact, he informational being as the Trickster makes total sense. It has no choice but to appeal to us on what is it's native terms. If it as an informational field faring species, like we are a space faring species, it may cross our universe like we visit relatives a thousand miles away. Once anywhere in the physical universe, the informational being would double (self replicate itself) via an indigenously non-local natural propagation process. Speed of thought would might be replaced with instantaneous multilocational existence. Imagine such a species as being cellular/hive minded in natural behavior. The ability to merge intelligence as a sentient, bi-local species, in exponentially combined intelligence process like AI we can't even begin to imagine right out of the chute so to speak.

So no, no my highly intelligent and thoroughly inspiring friend. Don't get hung up on the isolation factor which is in reality, no factor, at this time at least, at all. Just a safe, and I mean ultra safe, best guess IMO. There is so much more that's not even on the plate yet. Most likely won't be till we're both LONG buried and dead, and that's just within the theorizing aspects of the formulation of a solid understanding of what is consciousness as a specific environmental variant.
 
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Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept



Thats one way of looking at it. There are others. It's not to say its a level in a computer game, what we could be experiencing is a "evol-illusioary" kickstart.

"The Fool represents a leap of faith. It is the transition from the known to the unknown. Nothing ventured nothing gained is the motto. Unless you are willing to take a chance in life you rarely get ahead. The Fool card symbolizes this leap into the unknown. [what is left that is unknown other than the absurd or the irrational?]

The Red feather in the hat is the determination of the person. The white flower is his purity of spirit and lack of malice in making this bold move. The yellow sky and boots indicate a lot of thought has gone into this action even though it appears foolish from the outside it is very much a calculated risk by the person.

The dog at his feet is the world of fixed belief trying to hold him back and dissuade him from taking this dangerous step. Others always try to hold us back when we want to try something new and radical. It's worth listening to that advice but unless you take a chance you will never do something new and succeed. You may also fall, but that is the challenge. Are you brave enough to take this leap?"


Man, oh nameless one, do NOT EVER hold back again. Thanks!
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
lorax2.png
...her friend is nowhere to be seen
Now she walks
through her sunken dream
To the seat with the clearest view
And she's hooked to the silver screen
But the film is a saddening bore
For she's lived it
ten times or more
She could spit in the eyes of fools
As they ask her to focus on

[CHORUS]

Sailors fighting in the dance hall
Oh man!
Look at those cavemen go
It's the freakiest show
Take a look at the Lawman
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man! Wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best selling show
Is there life on Mars?

that works for me as an analogy for life in a mediated age. but that's been us in our own cannibal stew for many, many centuries. i doubt we'll get out of the sandbox our species still lives in before we implode and take the surface of the planet with us, kinda like those ocean trawlers with the giant nets that just scrape the bottom of the sea floor and mow down the coral reefs, like that butchery scene from the Lorax, where the trees were just getting hacked down serial killer style. you ask dr. seuss - he knew what was really going on.
dinosaur.jpg

Thats one way of looking at it. There are others. It's not to say its a level in a computer game, what we could be experiencing is a "evol-illusioary" kickstart.

i hear that piece about the trickster as our transformative catalyst as a likely possibility. it's us seeing visions again. oh look, there's theotokos now floating up in the sky with it's shining light. i think she's trying to tell me something. where's my scrying stone when i need it? should i write a contactee book? will we ever get out of the psychological Lacanian prison house we have built - that's another matter. if we learn to take the risk ill-prepared as we are, perhaps we can step off into a transitionary space something
like this:
tarots.jpg
to travel down a new path there must be willingness and that is all. to be able to embrace the unknown only requires the desire and the strength to see the world as it truly is and then we can wield our own wicked kind of magic. this is the things with us hominids, we have incredible aspirations, mostly clueless when it comes to direction. through the darkness of the forest the magician in us longs to see, one chance out between two worlds, fire walk with me! it's a kind of promethean incantation that returns us back to Keel, our fondness for occultism over the many generations - oh those alien demons messing with our heads as they stop on the side of the highway late at night, sprouting carrots out the side of their faces, while the mother ship glows and hums behind them. the world feels like it's on pause, like we're seeing it for the first time. did i make that ship? is this all me/all we? because the joke's on me. idle substance between the ears, rubbing ideas like they're sticks, just more fuel for the campfire story. if we dare make our dreams into reality whose face would we see laughing back at we?

is the trickster me. i want to see.

laura palmer.jpg
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
I see we went to the same school of Vogon poetry.:p

Humanity goes through the same cycles of convention, intervention and interaction, the clothes differ but the motivations or force that propels us is the same. Consciousness may have changed through many of these civilisation re-boots but these archetypes are recognised throughout all cultures and lands regardless of language, food, religion, politics, inventions etc. essentially we are the same physical people. These archetypes are recognised by people who were not eagerly dismissive and then began to "map" consciousness and the different conscious states we experience as complex human beings with the basic same needs and emotions and physical interactions. How do we get round the cultural baggage and confusion that comes from the "accidental" stuff that builds up around us which through the ages becomes the building up of onion layers, the retreading of the same ground stopping us from exploring new ones? We do so by computing these things through the symbols of the related archetypes which are then hidden at first inspection in the vein lines of the skin, we map the territory that is currently recurrent, those deep seated kernels of impetus. We also keep digging, tapping the vein of gold buried in the hills. The picture is just that, its not a record or a photo but to some its, "Its just a man with a knapsack being attacked by a dog walking of a cliff" which is one way of looking at it, but there is an emotional invocation too and then there is the meaning of of its hidden symbology. Its "hiddenness" is in plain sight if you have a key its meaning unfolds, "it" requires something from you not just the literal interpretation of the meaning of the symbols which is drawn out of the process and interaction with these symbols, its all too aware of itself, the process, which is part of the communication its "meta-life"requires you and its interpretation thus becomes an intuitive skill or art, yes its like life. We are dealing with the immaterial here and as close to a method of conscious application of will in this regard, we are not dealing with the physical materialist reality even though weirdly we are at the end of the domino line. Horses for courses.

This is where inexplicable, paranormal sightings or the unexplained gets confused. Is it in the mind, is it in physical reality? Does it actually matter if the results are the same or the emotional response is the same? But this is another thread.

Lets talk about why we can't get with a theory or a person or understand sea changes in style and will, or how we confuse methodology with belief systems, or why we subscribe to a belief system but not others or aren't even aware of these systems we believe in that are in place letting in
hypocrisy and contradiction.

Some people do not have these faculties of inspection or observation or the willingness to play with new ideas or just imagine maybe due to a lack of exposure, education, herd mentality, cultural prejudice, perhaps our brain has to counteract this, perhaps a cultural or societal mechanism has to create it too, maybe it does this like water on a flood plain. Some people are just stuck in a layer or bogged down by the analysis of form or meaning without the emotional evocation, others maybe emotionally blind to practical application or intellectual meaning. All I know is that history and what has been passed down through to us must be preserved and utilised and acknowledged, not seen as some archaic system rooted in a "primitive" cultural context, but as people mapping, treading the same roads of human experience, making the same mistakes, asking the same questions in different ways with different technology. Its difficult, you have to unlearn and wipe the slate to get some of this as stuff as it is hidden for a reason, the awareness that words are not the communication but their interaction and the people and experiences are as well, and certain interactions require a certain mindset, create new pathways and synaptic links, reach other aethyric planes, and further levels or degrees. When we do this, real magic happens, we use our imagination to create tools to further understand the material and the immaterial, but ultimately we must be still aware of the same consciousness interpreting more of this rich data.

Occultism from what I gather has unfortunately many connotations confused meanings and cultural prejudices stacked against it the same as using "Magic" and in this age "UFO" this is mainly due to the fact that its true practitioners or experts kept stuff around them esoteric and in most cases hidden to the uninitiated and from the unprepared thus allowing buck making charlatans, new age twats, religious scaremongers, religions zealots, the scared (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing maxim applies) to basically put a whole load of people off a tool which may be of some help or maybe the piece to the puzzle, itself adding to the firewall. There is a literal understanding of the word, a practical application of the word, a personal connection with the word, a hidden meaning and then there is the "obfuscated" reinterpreted understanding of the word. This is maybe how and why symbols are used or art is created, the storyteller is born just trying to make sense of stuff thats un-intelligible that has no definition or immaterial form.

Words change their meaning or can be changed, there is no Law but they are wrapped in cultural context which makes them rich and wonderful, its how you say them that gives them their zest too. Awareness comes from side stepping outside the system and seeing this free from cultural prejudice, doctrine, dogma, you do this and you change, you start shaping your "key" that helps you understand or even approach these archetypes with greater lucidity and understanding and to your own personal connection to these forms. Some people are lucky and are born like that, some people have to work at it. Its enough to be aware and know your limitations but what I wouldn't do is to stop people from approaching something I have now skill or knowledge of, I would not limit peoples experiences but open them up to new ones.

In regards to this thread, we should acknowledge those that have helped to make evolutionary leaps in thinking but i don't think people in these days, the days of religious or scientific fanaticism and literal interpretation can even grasp the concept of an evolutionary theory without cynicism, dogma, cultural prejudice or misinterpretation.

Hail to the freaks.
 
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nameless

Paranormal Adept
"Life On Mars?"

It's a god-awful small affair
To the girl with the mousy hair
But her mummy is yelling "No"
And her daddy has told her to go
But her friend is nowhere to be seen
Now she walks
through her sunken dream
To the seat with the clearest view
And she's hooked to the silver screen
But the film is a saddening bore
For she's lived it
ten times or more
She could spit in the eyes of fools
As they ask her to focus on

Sailors fighting in the dance hall
Oh man!
Look at those cavemen go
It's the freakiest show
Take a look at the Lawman
Beating up the wrong guy
Oh man! Wonder if he'll ever know
He's in the best selling show
Is there life on Mars?

It's on Amerika's tortured brow
That Mickey Mouse
has grown up a cow
Now the workers
have struck for fame
'Cause Lennon's on sale again
See the mice in their million hordes
From Ibiza to the Norfolk Broads
Rule Britannia is out of bounds
To my mother, my dog, and clowns
But the film is a saddening bore
'Cause I wrote it
ten times or more
It's about to be writ again
As I ask you to focus on



I've always thought this song to be special. Not only does it hit grand notes of human pathos but its has a prescient quality to it as well which is apparent to anyone who has ever been on a piss up on the Balearic islands.
 
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