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Who is the most important Ufologist?

Who is the most important Ufologist?

  • John Keel

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Rchard Dolan

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Jerome Clark

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Jacques Vallee

    Votes: 18 50.0%
  • James E. McDonald

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Budd Hopkins

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Coral Lorenzen

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • Stanton Friedman

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • J. Allen Hynek

    Votes: 15 41.7%
  • Jim Moseley

    Votes: 2 5.6%

  • Total voters
    36

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
This cobra is as close as I could get...
_wp-content_uploads_2010_12_JAKCHARMER.jpg

Some other nice Keel documents here.
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
These home movies show John Keel and Lite Beilenberg in Egypt in 1954; as well as footage of snake hunters. The film was shot in silent 16mm. Keel was a big film buff and shot movies and apparently used to show his own edit "Egypt -1954" before venues he spoke at. This appears to be an excerpt from that movie.

 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
The parallel to this far superior Will Vinton claymation movie, Closed Mondays, is quite fascinating. It has the same premise and other very interesting parallels to Keel's narrative and character, but a much more rewarding ending. One of my all time favourites by Vinton.

 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
I am trying to understand you. Words are all we are dealing with here Jeff. If I understood you, I wouldn't have asked you the question.

If you are talking about circumstantial evidence, then it doesn't "prove" anything. I am assuming that you know that.

and I do apologize for not being clearer. I am at work and often rushing about, so my driven nature has a way of running me over. They call that having your ass out there about 15 feet in front of you. The best of intent, the road to hell and such, know what you mean. I respect you too much to not make as much clear, but truthfully, I thought I had made this known previously. That's the nature of posting on the go for me, and again, it's me who clearly owes you the apology. When I spouted off "hypothetical evidence" R, I am referring to the composite layering of correlated information obtained from field obtained database research efforts. In such socially applied study efforts involving the best of scientific discipline, there is for many mysterious pursuits, only legend and report from which to plot a tenable working hypothesis. This being of any of any hypothetical orientation whatsoever, with respect to witness perceived, observation based or otherwise described, paranormal interactivity. Information that is relayed first hand to the field investigator and subsequent reporting documenter or group of documentarists. In this case a unified hypothetical position was proposed wherein a tremendous swath of paranormal functioning archetypes, reported within the scope of credible (sound of mind/stature) human perceptual experience can be attributed environmentally. Naturally, there is no proof needed within the scope of such occurring studies, as they do not seek to prove anything up front, or premeditatedly outright, but rather the very actions of the study itself are it's justification due to it's serious anomalistic end game considerations. Actually Trained one, I would be VERY interested in you poking as many holes as is possible in Keel's Superspectrum Hypothesis. It needs to be ripped apart six ways from sunday. The problem is, consensus is impossible within such a consideration due to it's bound hypothetical nature. We all come to the paranormal table with an appetite for the truth. We slam our frustrations on the table and demand to be fed the TRUTH. Nothing else will satiate our ravenously frustrated hunger for understanding, we self importantly declare! IMO, Keel well understood what it meant to work in the garden laboriously, long prior to the preparation of the formal meal, let alone any glory taking. I believe it was Keel that stated that the Mothman Prophecies initially sold less than 3,000 copies. That doesn't even pay for the book's publishing cost. People love to make up stuff about the guys that were paranormally there and did that. John payed out dearly over a pretty much paranormally (by way of written word) thankless life. He never did well at it according to him, and yep, he was mighty bitter about it. He got very little of what I feel he honestly deserved monetarily. Burnt thinks he didn't get enough of something else in his day. Truth is, IMO, he led a hard a lonely life. Not at all uncommon for exceptionally intelligent, eccentric, world travelers with backyard renown like John A. Keel.
 
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Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
As an aside, I will never forget an incident that John Keel relayed to me roughly 22 years ago. (or it might have been 23 years) Vicki and I were in Conn. where Vicki was giving a presentation and afterwards we had dinner with John. We were talking about a number of subjects and I was telling Keel what a huge fan I was of his book Mothman Prophecies and told him that during that time period I only lived a couple of hours from Point Pleasant, WV. I mentioned some of the weird things happening then in my little corner of the universe, UFO sightings, and even cryptid animal sightings. I then asked John about the Silver Bridge incident. He began telling me the things that were then happening, about his weird experiences including MIB incursions, etc. (As an aside Keel had a coterie of fans, erstwhile investigators and hangers on in NYC.) One of those guys was Jerry Clark. Keel chuckled then when he relayed that at the time of the collapse of the Bridge that many in his group were certain that a huge catastrophic event was about to happen and with the collapse of the bridge Clark almost had a total nervous collapse .. that he was terrified almost out of his mind at that point. Of course time moved right along, the earth continued to spin around the sun and the aliens did not invade. I ran into Jerry Clark not too long after that dinner with John Keel and asked him about what Keel relayed to me. Jerry didn't have very much to say about it then. Could this be one of the reasons Clark is not very complimentary of John Keel now? Hmm ....

Decker

Don,
I just wanted to let you know how incredible it is that you routinely participate on this forum. I take that for granted sometimes, and it just sort of knocks me upside the head when I realize as much from time to time. You Sir, with the deepest respect for what is the UFO and everyone's magical considerations about them, are so fricken COOL!!! Your adventures and the way you relay them as an unfolding of UFO culture is just so straight up awesome. I know that might sound like 14 year old enthusiasm, or whatever, but it's genuine and honestly inspired by you. You are a LUCKY man Don. To have such a talented and wonderful life long best friend in Vicki. Just such an amazing partnership in mutual motivation. Salute man, & ThanX4bnU.
 

Decker

Administrator
Staff member
Don,
I just wanted to let you know how incredible it is that you routinely participate on this forum. I take that for granted sometimes, and it just sort of knocks me upside the head when I realize as much from time to time. You Sir, with the deepest respect for what is the UFO and everyone's magical considerations about them, are so fricken COOL!!! Your adventures and the way you relay them as an unfolding of UFO culture is just so straight up awesome. I know that might sound like 14 year old enthusiasm, or whatever, but it's genuine and honestly inspired by you. You are a LUCKY man Don. To have such a talented and wonderful life long best friend in Vicki. Just such an amazing partnership in mutual motivation. Salute man, & ThanX4bnU.

Jeff, your note was very much appreciated and very gracious. I showed it to Vicki and she was very moved. Thank you. There sure isn't much of a living in UFO/Paranormal research and it is remarks like yours that do make it worthwhile. Once again, thanks and deeply appreciated.

Decker
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
Jeff, your note was very much appreciated and very gracious. I showed it to Vicki and she was very moved. Thank you. There sure isn't much of a living in UFO/Paranormal research and it is remarks like yours that do make it worthwhile. Once again, thanks and deeply appreciated.

Decker
I'm glad somebody got something good out this thread.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
Since when has data entry, running a programme and a mathematical outcome been an analogy for or simile for investigative research.

Vallee did many personal on site investigations himself. Some of those investigations ran for several years with him revisiting sites and people. Vallee has probably contributed more to the scientific analysis and investigation of the phenomena than anyone else in the field bar none. I don't think there will be another like Vallee, at least not in our lifetimes that combines real scientific training and professionalism with in field investigative work.

I absolutely love and appreciate John Keel. However, if you compare John Keel's most popular work, The Mothman Chronicles, with any of Vallee's books, Revelations for example, there is clearly a difference in tone and presentation. Keel is out to tell a good story, to engage, mystify, and thrill the reader. Vallee on the other hand, other than in his fictional work (which I have yet to read), doesn't seem to have those same goals.
 

Jeff Davis

Paranormal Adept
...and of course it's short sighted on my part to keep from paralleling Vallee and Keel with respect to their potential contribution to the progressive understanding (yes! I do possess such delusional understanding) and ongoing study of UFOs. I do not believe that Keel was moved toward, or motivated by, any less, or in fact, any different goal setting orientation or rigidity of ethical scientific principle than Vallee. Not in the least. What I perceive is the two different possible brain types with respect to the commonly polarized rational extrapolatory logical/abstract positional predominance, or propensity in determination rationale, within individual perceptual cognitive process, types, (the dichotomy thereof) being pursued and conveyed from either a right or left brain personality. Cradle to grave seamless. However, I do believe due to Keel's immense right brain oriented gift of expression, he was by nature a much better author. We both know that great authors do not impress scientists that stand face forward, arms folded in front of them, and expressionless in analytical certitude. The most successful in either discipline is best by his/her nature first. Aptitude is always where it's at with respect to specific applied human potential. At least that's been my unwavering experience.

This is why the instincts of the individual kick in due to the conformational uncertainty that exists in attribute to the paranormal seamlessly. Separating signal from noise becomes too daunting and down right scary as F76!. Due to all our previous disinformation paved, hoaxers and charlatan induced sink hole obliteration, our paved paranormal path's past encountered despair has painted a criminal portrait of this thing known as "trust" in individuals. So, ultimately for me, Vallee will always represent the logical, whereas Keel will always dominate the abstract. Each with, IMO, undeniable integrity and potential, within their committed investigative pursuits.

Ultimately the real difference between Keel and Vallee was their support mechanism and what that support leant to each personality. That matter I will leave for a different time as I am out of as much now/peace out
 

S.R.L.

Paranormal Adept
J. Keel was an extremely effective writer with an incredible imagination. When perusing his past employers, along with the descriptions of various works, one may gain the opinion that he was more of a writer, author, or entertainer than he was as a researcher. Vallee’s research on the other hand was serious, as you would most likely find out when reading “Forbidden Science Vol.II.” On one note of irony, Vallee has suggested that it may be up to psychologists and sociologists to sort out the meaning of phenomena. Jeffery Kripal was one name mentioned by Vallee, and if you were to know Kripal’s thinking on this matter, as in reading “Mutants and Mystics,” you may just have discovered that irony.

Mothman Prophecies
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
I am referring to the composite layering of correlated information obtained from field obtained database research efforts.

So you're talking about taking a best guess from the information at hand. You original statement was that this constituted proof of something, which of course, it does not.

The Super Spectrum notion, which is not an actual hypothesis (as none of these things are), has always been one of my favorites to play around with personally. That we exist in a universe that is largely undetectable to our senses is a proven scientific fact. The idea that intelligences might exist outside of our perception, while plausible in some extreme sense, is stuff of religion and demonology however. There is no scientific evidence that extra-dimensional intelligences actually exist. I personally cannot come up with a reasonable explanation as to why non-human extra-dimensional (or extra-terrestrial for that matter) beings would concern themselves with human beings, which to me is one of the greater puzzles.

You are 100% correct about Don, and I believe he should have been included in the poll's list. I had the pleasure of meeting Don and Vicki last year and I can tell you they are both very wonderful and very genuine people. Ufology in general owes them a great deal.
 
S

smcder

Guest
Yes, i don't understand this dismissive connotation of the phrase, but it appears to be a Ufological interpretation where, "the act of thinking magically is used whenever adherents to the UFOlogical interpretive manifestos stray too from the razor of Occam, which reminds us of the word Occult, and causes one to create an explanation of unique phenomenon as belonging to things like other dimensions, ultra terrestrials, crypto terrestrials etc.." So why think magical when you can think ETH, or something like that, i think?

There was an attempt to reclaim The Art of Magical Thinking in this thread below which suggested that we could use our imaginations, alternative thinking processes, lateral wet dreaming etc. to think more outside of the strapped in UFO paradigm box and find alternative approaches the conundrums of old and new testament ufology.

The Art of Magical Thinking | The Paracast Community Forums

There was also this thread on Consciousness and Magic, but I leave all the consciousness thread explanations to @smcder ; because, i think he's the only one that can hold their contents together in one of his larger gestalts that he carries around the digital landscape like some kind of inuksuk for him to use to chart out his own research path. he could probably explain magical thinking in a more involved way than i could.

Consciousness and Magic | The Paracast Community Forums

95-inukshuk.jpg

I have been called a lot of things in my time, but never an inuksuk ... not sure how to feel about that . . . have I been inuksukted??

Here is a good lecture series on religion, science and magic, first lecture should answer all your questions @nameless ;-)

 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
While my hair is not as big as hers, i lecture in class using my hands the exact same way. It's almost like looking into one of those mime mirrors.
 

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