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Who is the most important Ufologist?

Who is the most important Ufologist?

  • John Keel

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Rchard Dolan

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • Jerome Clark

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Jacques Vallee

    Votes: 18 50.0%
  • James E. McDonald

    Votes: 11 30.6%
  • Budd Hopkins

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Coral Lorenzen

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • Stanton Friedman

    Votes: 7 19.4%
  • J. Allen Hynek

    Votes: 15 41.7%
  • Jim Moseley

    Votes: 2 5.6%

  • Total voters
    36

nameless

Paranormal Adept
Oh I agree Jeff. Aliens are not the only game in town . I think most of us would agree let's see what fits.

I am bound by some bullshit Meier franchise ruling which prevents me setting up my own cult but then again he can only throw one punch at a time and I'll see it coming so I am working on it. I've got it all worked out . It involves chocolate . The ladies love chocolate.
That's not to say people cant create their own cult like tendencies or the cult of personality. I think it begins with misquoting, misinterpretation, misappropriation then the Christlike suicide then the petitions to god.
 
S

smcder

Guest
Yes, i don't understand this dismissive connotation of the phrase, but it appears to be a Ufological interpretation where, "the act of thinking magically is used whenever adherents to the UFOlogical interpretive manifestos stray too from the razor of Occam, which reminds us of the word Occult, and causes one to create an explanation of unique phenomenon as belonging to things like other dimensions, ultra terrestrials, crypto terrestrials etc.." So why think magical when you can think ETH, or something like that, i think?

There was an attempt to reclaim The Art of Magical Thinking in this thread below which suggested that we could use our imaginations, alternative thinking processes, lateral wet dreaming etc. to think more outside of the strapped in UFO paradigm box and find alternative approaches the conundrums of old and new testament ufology.

The Art of Magical Thinking | The Paracast Community Forums

There was also this thread on Consciousness and Magic, but I leave all the consciousness thread explanations to @smcder ; because, i think he's the only one that can hold their contents together in one of his larger gestalts that he carries around the digital landscape like some kind of inuksuk for him to use to chart out his own research path. he could probably explain magical thinking in a more involved way than i could.

Consciousness and Magic | The Paracast Community Forums

?
 

Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
I see you can reply to others, why can't you reply to me? That is odd.

You didn't seem to get that my crab-comment was exactly in line with your explanation about arrogant humans. Yes, nature is there, despite no human being there, and despite no human being there to describe it in language. That's exactly what I was saying: A tree makes a sound when it falls, regardless if a human is there, or not.

It seems you basically missread everything I wrote. Maybe I misread what you wrote initially, if so, what about having the decency to inform me about that? Mind you, your post had a lot of verbiage, and I tried to make heads and tails of it, and respond to it, and actually see where it lead, to see what you were getting at.

So, I think your follow ups were very strange. Maybe you should realize that people can't read your mind, and that some of your posts are quite meandering and hard to understand. Just a tip..

I read your initial post again, and it seems you wanted to say:
Human ideas are shaped by the human experience. And the human experience cannot be trusted to reveal the truth about the ding-an-sich, the thing-in-itself. I have no problem with that. Like I said, I don't know much about primary meanings and causes, or whether there's any meaning at all.

Instead, among other things, in my post I reacted to what I interpreted as you equalling the ETH with Harry Potter and what I interpreted as your saying that the human experience really counts for nothing. That, I don't agree with. Furthermore, I was just trying to clarify what you think?
 
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Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
I know nothing of the origin of such an official title, but the admonishment of as much is utterly idiotic. Einstein himself took the time to clearly underline the value of real magical thinking when he stated,


“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

...
Einstein did not equal imagination and speculation, or philosophical/spiritual intuitions about oneness, with magic. Don't skew what he said, those words mean different things.

J.K. Rowling = Magic

Einstein = Imagination and creativity combined with the hard (self-)diciplin of the scientist.
 
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Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
edited the previous post after reading nameless' post again

I was really trying to figure out what made him react so harshly to my post.
 
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Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
The ETH club?

I've been in that club the whole time, albeit as a very hesitant member, I wouldn't excatly call myself a card-carrying member.

Since I'm quite sceptical about all stories about weirdness, non-material evidence has to be very, very, VERY strong.

Nuts-and-bolts evidence only has to very, very, very strong, - because I can grasp how it could even be.

I think that is a reasonable conservative approach, and I'm not going to change it unless someone can show me evidence that I have a reason to.
Radar images and so forth are evidence, of something. Otoh., Vallee's individual witnesses don't really count as evidence for me, if they did, I'd soon find evidence for every weird thing that grabbed my attention. I don't see what that would benefit?

And other people whining about hard-core ETH proponents/believers/cult-members is not going to change my outlook on the whole deal. In part because I've witnessed far more wild guesses or even beliefs, among true 'paranormalists' than I have among classic nuts-and-bolts proponents.
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
Don't worry princess, I wasn't expecting a direct reply to me this time, but I thought I'd give you the chance before putting you on ignore, ciao!


So anyway ... If people want to interpret my writings or criticize them let's play at least on a level playing field. Be wary of your own definitions and interpretations they might not actually be the same I think that's where the problem lies. If you expect an immediate answer, I'm sorry I don't pander to this spoilt child mentality it's not always about you particularly when your talking about me, making assumptions and judgements, it's my own prerogative to "take the bait" and it's not even fun when you deal with people who demonstrate a lack of irony and are just coming across as rude by misinterpreting, reediting, re-contextualising and mapping your own value systems on stuff, it's actually part of what I was going on about originally! So actually if I am to get anything from this it's a great example of this mangling of the interpretation or viewpoint within the confines of a dogmatic outlook. I'm sorry Jimi but in this case , What was it that I did was so bad to warrant such drama? Are you going to edit all that out now too? I guess you can feel personally slighted when you religiously adhere to a doctrine which should just be a tool or a hypothesis and let's not get that confused with having an objectives scientific method.

Maybe I didn't reply directly to Jimi H out of grace because I didn't want to embarrass him/her, maybe I made generalized comments and questions because they were not literally directed at anyone in particular, it's not always about "you".

I can assume then that I have hit a raw nerve. Sorry Jimi H. I don't think your stupid or belligerent so I can only assume your purposefully being antagonistic. If so, try being ridiculous or sarcastic with it to show a mirrored viewpoint or irony, of course some people may not get it but the people who count will. This is compounded even more by the fact you call yourself Jimi H, I mean you do realize that Hendrix was a full blown trip the light fantastic spaceman angelic entity mystic shamen don't you? This was made more apparent to me by my father's occasional meetings with him in the 60s. In fact if Jimi Hendrix was a "mystic gay" he would be a full on rainbow flag waving raging Queen, but you knew this didn't you? Perhaps he was your entry point into the world of nuts n bolts UFOs, that was the trend at the time a number of artists in those days had an opinion about the subject which was just as broad a possibility as to what they are maybe more so then now . Or again is this a jump into the breach mentality at work. You should read this. I 'll send you've copy if I can dig it out if we are still fwendz??lol, rofl, omg, lfao etc...
Cherokee Mist: Lost Writings of Jimi Hendrix:Amazon.co.uk:Books

Seriously what is it with these Che Guevara tshirt wearing "take me to your dealer" types and their spoilt brat quick tempers? Try looking in a mirror when you put on some clothes and assume nothing.
 
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nameless

Paranormal Adept
UFO saucer mystics are way cool and anyone who likes them are ok by me.

Again , I "believe" in the ETH too. It's just a hypothesis.
 
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Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
.. If you expect an immediate answer, I'm sorry I don't pander to this spoilt child mentality it's not always about you and your only child upbringing particularly
..
What was it that I did was so bad to warrant such drama? I guess you can feel personally slighted when you religiously adhere to a doctrine which should just be a tool or a hypothesis.
Good grief, come on man, your only reply to my completely friendly response to was this:

"TROLL"

And then some badmouthing about my arguments, in the third person.

I think I'm actually being pretty nice to you, all things considered. Especially considering that you are carrying on now.

..
..
I can assume then that I have hit a raw nerve. Sorry Jimi H. I don't think your stupid or belligerent so I can only assume your purposefully being antagonistic.
I'm sorry, when you reply to my politely formulated response with TROLL, and irritated comments about my response, in the third person, I think you need to look in the mirror before you label me as antagonistic.

..
If so, try being ridiculous or sarcastic with it to show a mirrored viewpoint or irony, of course some people may not get it but the people who count will. This is compounded even more by the fact you call yourself Jimi H, I mean you do realize that Hendrix was a full blown trip the light fantastic spaceman angelic entity mystic shamen don't you? ..
I played Hendrix songs live on stage the first time when I was 14, he shaped my musical world. Sorry if that isn't good enough for you.

Another thing: I've read several biographies about him, and it's been clear to me that he was not as spaced out as you suggest. But he was often drugged up, often because his manager was always pouring drugs into him.
Hendrix was a dedicated musician, always honing his craft. But many people tried to influence him with all sorts of political or spiritual issues, to use him for their purpose. He was under a lot of pressure.
That's also the very reason why I consciously picked an avatar that does not show Hendrix as the drugged out flower-power showman.
My impression is that he was a gentle and open person, a free spirit, my impression is not, that he was a spaced-out person, intellectually.

But many artists delve into the mysterious and intuitive and sensual. I do too, believe it or not, but I didn't sign up here to discuss me or my spirituality, I initially signed up because I got fed up with anti-science that I was reading, and for the UFO-discussions. I have no doubt that Hendrix also got fed up with bullshit.


..
Seriously what is it with these Che Guevara tshirt wearing "take me to your dealer" types and their spoil brat quick tempers? Try looking in a mirror when you put on some clothes and assume nothing.
You seem very prejudiced.

I gotta say, I don't know what nerves exactly I hit in you, but you're pretty damn hostile, man.
 
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manxman

Paranormal Adept
The ETH club?

I've been in that club the whole time, albeit as a very hesitant member, I wouldn't excatly call myself a card-carrying member.

Since I'm quite sceptical about all stories about weirdness, non-material evidence has to be very, very, VERY strong.

Nuts-and-bolts evidence only has to very, very, very strong, - because I can grasp how it could even be.

I think that is a reasonable conservative approach, and I'm not going to change it unless someone can show me evidence that I have a reason to.
Radar images and so forth are evidence, of something. Otoh., Vallee's individual witnesses don't really count as evidence for me, if they did, I'd soon find evidence for every weird thing that grabbed my attention. I don't see what that would benefit?

And other people whining about hard-core ETH proponents/believers/cult-members is not going to change my outlook on the whole deal. In part because I've witnessed far more wild guesses or even beliefs, among true 'paranormalists' than I have among classic nuts-and-bolts proponents.

no i meant the ''crazy cockney dummy spit'' recipient club.

he just trip's out for some weird reason, known only to himself, just laugh and move on.
 

Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
One more thing: In theory, I can deal with the extra-dimensional ideas. Problem is, even the fathers of string theory deny that entities could ever 'jump' from one dimension to another. So, I think it's pretty annoying when believers latch on to a half-regurgitated/unfounded understanding of multi-dimensional theories and start touting them as more worthy than the ETH.

The ultra-terrestrial idea: I have yet to get a proponent to explain to me where on Earth (pun intended) these guys hang out when they aren't scaring the citizens? I mean, let's take David Biedny's cigar-shaped craft story. Where are the factories that can build such a craft? Where are their mines? If only there were signs of that, I'd give much more creedence to the idea that they are right here among us. But at this point, I can't make the pieces fit.
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
Manx ;
no i meant the ''crazy cockney dummy spit'' recipient club.

he just trip's out for some weird reason, known only to himself, just laugh and move on.
I still see your sore after our last encounter. No need to shit stir pal. Take your own advice and jog on son. You can't even play by your own rules pal how can we take advice from you.
 

manxman

Paranormal Adept
Manx ;

I still see your sore after our last encounter. No need to shit stir pal. Take your own advice and jog on son. You can't even play by your own rules pal how can we take advice from you.






you really are blind to being baited in a micky taking capacity are'nt you hippy.

you just dont seem able to separate mild baiting out, its all malicious to you, your a strange guy, its as if your blind to the fact that your complete over-reaction to even the 2 simplest of bait's here, demonstrates that, without the way you trip out on people just answering your post's.

i mean how could you think jimi is 'trolling' you, he is a genuine guy, who must have spent half an hour writing a well mannered reply to you, and you go off on one [booom], right over the top, because of some imaginary offence, you really are precious.

its no skin of my nose, i dont care enough to take any offence, and to me you are just part of the rich online tapestry of 'character's'.

the reason i stopped ribbing you was because you demonstrated quite clearly you couldnt handle it, having you blow-up every other day wouldnt be much fun, it would be trolling, because you just dont get it.

when we had a couple of weeks friendly back and forth banter, it was you that blew up, for the first 4 or 5 posts of your dummy-spit i still thought it was banter, alittle over the top i thought but banter all the same, i was gob-smacked when i realised you were serious, but like i say, it takes all kinds the internet.
 
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Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
..

i mean how could you think jimi is 'trolling' you, he is a genuine guy, who must have spent half an hour writing a well mannered reply to you, and you go off on one [booom], right over the top, because of some imaginary offence, you really are precious....
Thanx manx :)
 

nameless

Paranormal Adept
you really are blind to being baited in a micky taking capacity are'nt you hippy.

you just dont seem able to separate mild baiting out, its all malicious to you, your a strange guy, its as if your blind to the fact that your complete over-reaction to even the 2 simplest of bait's here, demonstrates that, without the way you trip out on people just answering your post's.

i mean how could you think jimi is 'trolling' you, he is a genuine guy, who must have spent half an hour writing a well mannered reply to you, and you go off on one [booom], right over the top, because of some imaginary offence, you really are precious.

its no skin of my nose, i dont care enough to take any offence, and to me you are just part of the rich online tapestry of 'character's'.

the reason i stopped ribbing you was because you demonstrated quite clearly you couldnt handle it, having you blow-up every other day wouldnt be much fun, it would be trolling, because you just dont get it.

when we had a couple of weeks friendly back and forth banter, it was you that blew up, for the first 4 or 5 posts of your dummy-spit i still thought it was banter, alittle over the top i thought but banter all the same, i was gob-smacked when i realised you were serious, but like i say, it takes all kinds the internet.
Actually I think your selective memory seems to miss out on the fact you jumped on all my posts with what in you eyes was banter but was just plain boring objectification in your part . I had the grace to humour you to a point but you couldn't differentiate between a time and a place for your "banter" and your thread high jacking became another Manx ego drama . Pretty much what's going on here. Like I said, your shit stirring put the boot in is a little pathetic Manx, you didn't like it when people did it to you.
 
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nameless

Paranormal Adept
Good grief, come on man, your only reply to my completely friendly response to was this:

"TROLL"

And then some badmouthing about my arguments, in the third person.

I think I'm actually being pretty nice to you, all things considered. Especially considering that you are carrying on now.


I'm sorry, when you reply to my politely formulated response with TROLL, and irritated comments about my response, in the third person, I think you need to look in the mirror before you label me as antagonistic.


I played Hendrix songs live on stage the first time when I was 14, he shaped my musical world. Sorry if that isn't good enough for you.

Another thing: I've read several biographies about him, and it's been clear to me that he was not as spaced out as you suggest. But he was often drugged up, often because his manager was always pouring drugs into him.
Hendrix was a dedicated musician, always honing his craft. But many people tried to influence him with all sorts of political or spiritual issues, to use him for their purpose. He was under a lot of pressure.
That's also the very reason why I consciously picked an avatar that does not show Hendrix as the drugged out flower-power showman.
My impression is that he was a gentle and open person, a free spirit, my impression is not, that he was a spaced-out person, intellectually.

But many artists delve into the mysterious and intuitive and sensual. I do too, believe it or not, but I didn't sign up here to discuss me or my spirituality, I initially signed up because I got fed up with anti-science that I was reading, and for the UFO-discussions. I have no doubt that Hendrix also got fed up with bullshit.



You seem very prejudiced.

I gotta say, I don't know what nerves exactly I hit in you, but you're pretty damn hostile, man.
Jimi H u hope you don't put me on ignore as you previously threatened , Manx don't like a dummy spitter or a ball taker awayer . I really hope you come out and enter the mystic and explore the mysticism of jim Hendrix as he was an amazing genius in charge of his craft who had been touched by the faeries with a deft hand.
 

manxman

Paranormal Adept
you are funny hippie, even after i tell you i am just baiting ya alittle you cant see it, to you its just shit-stirring and calling you names.

i will save it for those with the wit to perceive it in future.
[/\ that's bait/\]


peace brother.

[/\that isnt/\]
 
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