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UFOs and Nukes

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I know very little about the whole MJ12 controversy, but I'm skeptical.

Having said that, I seem to remember S.Friedman arguing (on video, in some early 1990s TV documentary) that the MJ12 documents included details (he used the word "minutiae") which supposedly were unknown at the time when the MJ12 documents were made public, but which he was able to verify later through his investigations in the Archives.

Does anyone know what "minutiae" Friedman might be referring to?

PS: Sorry for the off-topic.
 
Friedman wrote 'Top Secret/Majic; Operation Majestic-12 and the United States Goverment's UFO Cover-up' (New York: Marlowe, 1996, 282pp ISBN:978-1-56924-342-8 ) all about this. I read it several months ago, so it's not fresh in my mind, but I do remember that he takes a great deal of time proving some minutiae on the documents COULD be from the time period. Some of the criticism of the MJ-12 documents involved these small details. One is that the date format is backwards and would not have been used on an official document. Another is that the wording of the secrecy stamps is wrong and would not have been used during the time period covered. Friedman takes a lot of time and space to prove the date format was in use at the time. He provides examples.

Other issues include the authenticity of Truman's signature, the type of typewriter used, etc. The book is also a history of the issue and interesting from that perspective. Whatever stnce you take on the issue, if you are interested in it, this book is a must read.
 
Schuyler, the type of support I'm referring to, would be corroborating new information obtained via subsequent FOIA docs.
 
Yes, Gareth, and here is a page from Stanton Friedman's website, in which he says that virtually all of the documents that the Woods have "analyzed" (that is, the ones supplied to them by Timothy Cooper) are fraudulent: <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/mj12_update3.html#bottom<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Friedman of course endorses the earlier set of MJ-12 "documents" (the ones he endorsed early on, in the 1980s, before the disinfo op at Kirtland AFB was exposed by myself and others) even though credible researchers such as Bob Todd and Barry Greenwood did forensic studies which disproved their authenticity. (See my Operation Bird Droppings article.)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So, for those of you trying to keep up here, Friedman likes what he was given by the discredited and disgraced Bill Moore in the 1980s, but rejects virtually all of the latest documents circulated by Tim Cooper (which, again, were sent to the Woods.)<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
The Woods, however, stand by what they got from Cooper, even though he himself has now disavowed his earlier claims that what he gave the Woods were legitimate documents (see my OBD Update 1). But, as of now, Cooper still denies forging them himself. When he took a polygraph test in 1999, and was asked about his story of having received the documents in his locked P.O. box, he failed the test (see my OBD Update 2). I just offered to pay for a second polygraph test but Cooper declined to take one.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
And, last but not least, Friedman has finally responded to my OBD article, now at UFO Chronicles (http://www.theufochronicles.com/2009/04/bird-droppings-and-mj-12-stanton.html) in which he defends the earlier set of MJ-12 documents (no surprise there) and disagrees with virtually all of what I wrote about those documents being bogus. However, he does admit this much: <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
"None of this is to say that Robert is not justified in some of his attacks on the activities and claims of Doty, Collins, Moore and Cooper. There were games played and I agree with some of his critiques."<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
So, apparently, here is the logic: According to Friedman, the games played by Doty, Collins, and Moore in the 1980s—relating to the original MJ-12 documents that he still claims are real—had no bearing at all on the legitimacy of those documents. However, the later games played by Tim Cooper—relating to the newer batch of MJ-12 documents that he sent to the Woods—raise serious questions about those particular documents' authenticity.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Hmmmm...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As I have previously written, the facts will not emerge until everyone involved is placed under oath in a courtroom. I am currently attempting to figure out how that can be achieved as soon as possible.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
--Robert Hastings<o:p></o:p>
ufohastings.com<o:p></o:p>
 
Hm.... this topic is proving to be a really interesting battle. I have recently gained quite an interest in the MJ-12 documents, having recently bought Stans book on it (Robert your book is on next months shopping list).

I have always pretty much thought that the document would be fake. I mean if there is an organisation that is so secretive that is has kept the biggest secret in mankind quiet for all of these years, why would they have these documents lying around for someone to photo, they would have burnt the paper trail long ago.

I do agree with your character assasinations robert, clearly Doty and co have been playing games all this time.

There are a few things that confuse me.

1. How comes the original documents are extremely well faked, pretty much flawless in fact, no real critique of them has stood the test of time. Yet the later documents were horrible fakes with lots of easy errors.

2. I think Stan has proved that there is a certain amount of info in the original docs that Doty would not have known, yet somehow it all adds up (dates of meetings etc).

I think it is clear that whoever did the original documents would have to have spent an extra-ordinary amount of time to make them as foolproof as they were... which leads me to believe that perhaps the original docs were faked by a larger and more competent team, whilst the later ones were just the sloppy work of those idiots falcon and condor.

Even with the character assasination of Moore and co, i still dont see flaws in the original documents, but they're still fake imo.
The final thought i have is 'why'?
Why would the airforce bother employing these idiots to create the documents? Sure its disinformation.... but to what end?

Nice job though Robert
 
Also, if they did come forward about faking the second lot of documents, why wouldnt they come forward about faking the originals?

Surely if Doty was sacked from the OSI, he wouldnt have given a monkeys about it any more and just admitted that he faked them. Surely that would be a great way at getting back at the agency that sacked him.

I'm not saying that i believe the docs are real, only that there seems to be lots of unanswered questions.
 
Hi Hoffmeister,

You wrote: How come the original documents are extremely well faked, pretty much flawless in fact, no real critique of them has stood the test of time. Yet the later documents were horrible fakes with lots of easy errors.

RH: Well, Stan claims they are flawless. Lots of other researchers, including myself, disagree. As I pointed out in my last post, Stan says the Cooper-originated "documents" are bogus but the Woods call them flawless. And on and on...

And, of course, none of those guys are professional document examiners. I have simply pointed out that the guys who first passed this crap around, Doty and Collins, were disinfo agents, according to the civilian they recruited to assist them--Bill Moore. After my 1989, they were exposed disinfo agents.

You wrote: I think Stan has proved that there is a certain amount of info in the original docs that Doty would not have known, yet somehow it all adds up (dates of meetings etc).

RH: Check out the link to Brad Sparks' 2007 paper on MJ-12, delivered at the 2007 MUFON International Symposium. It was in my OBD article but here it is again:



Sparks demonstrates that Doty milked Moore (and indirectly Friedman) of info gleaned from their Roswell investigation. Then, much of that same info suddenly surfaces in the MJ-12 papers. Duh...

There is a ton of info in my article, if one uses the links.

I will be composing an OBD Update 3 in the near future. Stay tuned.


Robert
 
UFO Activity at French ICBM Sites

Finally, back to the stated topic of this thread. I have a new and interesting lead. A French journalist skeptical about UFOs recently told me:

"...a very strange testimony from my first cousin increased my doubts [about UFOs being nonsense]. When he was non-commissioned officer he, and the security platoon he commanded, had a very bad and scaring experience near an ICBM silo."

When I sent this email to former Minuteman missile launch officer Robert Salas, he wrote to a French contact of his own, who responded:

"Hi Robert, Yes, I confirm such events occured at Plateau d'Albion, in South of France where 18 ICBM SSBS were based (They have been dismantled since then)."

"I investigated on that topic and obtained some press articles and witnesses reports. We have strategic nuclear bombers Mirage IV involved with UFOs sightings and Nuclear power plants as well. It is a highly sensitive subject in France."

Can anyone shed any light on this? Does anyone know of such reports?

--Robert Hastings
ufohastings.com
 
For those of you following the MJ-12 commentary on this thread, I have just posted a few remarks on the "Was Bill Moore a CIA Agent?" thread, in response to Greg Bishops' posts.
 
Hello all,

I have just posted my latest article on the Big Sur UFO Incident at:

http://www.theufochronicles.com/2009/05/deep-denial-or-disinformation.html

The article is titled "Kingston George's Latest Comments in Skeptical Inquirer on the Big Sur UFO: Deep Denial or Disinformation?"

In it, I have links to the 1980s-era personal correspondence of Drs. Bob Jacobs and Florenze Mansmann, the two former USAF officers who were involved in the top secret incident. Those once-private musings confirm that even 20 years later, the two men were still stunned by, and marveling over, the still-classified motion picture film showing a UFO shooting down a dummy nuclear warhead in flight, in September 1964.

The article also references other UFO-related incidents during missile launches by the U.S. military, from the late 1940s to the mid-1970s, confirming that the incident revealed by Jacobs and Mansmann was not unique.

Finally, I discuss the very interesting backgrounds of those who have desperately tried to debunk the Big Sur case. There is much more going on behind the scenes than one might imagine. Are these guys merely garden-variety debunkers or U.S. government-affiliated disinformation agents?

Enjoy...

--Robert Hastings
ufohastings.com
 
Hi -some great reading on this thread and kudos to Mr Hastings for such comprehensive research.
I've not had time to read all the posts so I don't know if its been mentioned already but there are some very interesting USO accounts involving nuclear missile carrying warships at this site:
http://www.waterufo.net/menu.htm
It appears the U.S.S. Frankilin D. Roosevelt has had more than its fair share of strange incidents down the years -as have many other nuclear payload U.S. Warships.
Cheers.
 
Interesting reading about the Coyote Canyon UFO Incident -FOIA Document:

SUMMARY OF INFORMATION

1. On 2 Sept 80, SOURCE related on 8 Aug 80, three Security Policemen assigned to 1608 SPS, KAFB, NM, on duty inside the Manzano Weapons Storage Area sighted an unidentified light in the air that traveled from North to South over the Coyote Canyon area of the Department of Defense Restricted Test Range on KAFB, NM.
The Security Policemen identified as: SSGT STEPHEN FERENZ, Area Supervisor, ATC MARTIN W. RIST and AMN ANTHONY D. FRAZIER, were later interviewed separately by SOURCE and all three related the same statement; at approximately 2350 hrs., while on duty in Charlie Sector, East Side of Manzano, the three observed a very bright light in the sky approximately 3 miles North-North East of their position.
The light traveled with great speed and stopped suddenly in the sky over Coyote Canyon. The three first thought the object was a helicopter,however, after observing the strange aerial maneuvers (stop and go), they felt a helicopter couldn't have performed such skills.
The light landed in the Coyote Canyon area. Sometime later, three witnessed the light take off and leave proceeding straight up at a high speed and disappear.

2. Central Security Control (CSC) inside Manzano, contacted Sandia Security, who conducts frequent building checks on two alarmed structures in area. They advised that a patrol was already in the area and would investigate.

3. On 11 Aug 80, RUSS CURTIS, Sandia Security, advised that on 9 Aug 80, a Sandia Security Guard, (who wishes his name not be divulged for fear of harassment), related the following: At approximately 0020 hrs., he was driving east on the Coyote Canyon access road on a routine building check of an alarmed structure. As he approached the structure he observed a bright light near the ground behind the structure. He also observed an object he first thought was a helicopter. But after driving closer, he observed a round disk shaped object. He attempted to radio for backup patrol but his radio would not work.
As he approached the object on foot armed with a shotgun, the object took off in a vertical direction at a high rate of speed.
The guard was a former helicopter mechanic in the U.S. Army and stated the object he observed was not a helicopter.

4. SOURCE advised on 22 Aug 80, three other security policemen observed the same aerial phenomena described by the first three. Again the object landed in Coyote Canyon. They did not see the object take off.


SUMMARY OF INFORMATION

1. On 13 Aug 80, 1960 COMM Sq Maintenance Officer reported Radar Approach.
Control equipment and scanner radar inoperative due to high frequency jamming from an unknown cause. Total blackout of entire radar approach system to include Albuquerque Airport was in effect between 1630-2215 hrs.
Radar Approach Control back up system also were inoperative.

2. On 13 Aug 80, Defense Nuclear Agency Radio Frequency Monitors determined, by vector analysis, the interference was being sent from an area (V-90 degrees or due East). On DAF map coordinates E-28.6.
The area was located NW of Coyote Canyon Test area. It was first thought that Sandia Laboratory, which utilizes the test range was responsible.
However, after a careful check, it was later determined that no test were being conducted in the canyon area. Department of Energy, Air Force Weapons Laboratory and DNA were contacted but assured that their agencies were not responsible.

3. On 13 Aug 80, Base Security Police conducted a physical check of the area but because of the mountainous terrain, a thorough check could not be completed at that time. A later foot search failed to disclose anything that could have caused the interference.

4. On 13 Aug 80, at 2216 hrs., all radar equipment returned to normal operation without further incident.

5. CONCLUSION: The presence of hostile intelligence jamming cannot be ruled out. Although no evidence would suggest this, the method has been used in the past. Communication maintenance specialists cannot explain how such interference could cause the radar equipment to become totally inoperative.
Neither could they suggest the type or range of the interference signal. DNA frequency monitors reported the interference
beam was wide spread and a type unknown to their electronical equipment.
Further checks of the area was being conducted by Technical Services,
AFOSI.

6. High command interest item. Briefings requested IAW AFOSIR 124-4 be completed at HQ AFOSI/IVOE. HQ CR 44 and 51 items.
http://www.nicap.org/foia_003.htm
 
All,

Heads-up! This Sunday, May 24th, Don Ecker and I will be guests on the Paracast, discussing the MJ-12-related disinformation/boolsheet being disseminated nowadays by Bob "Condor" Collins and Richard "Falcon" Doty.

This broadcast is a in-depth follow-up to my recent "Operation Bird Droppings" article (and OBD Updates 1 and 2) which are now online.

While some persons seem oblivious to the importance of challenging Collins' and Doty's shenanigans, on an ongoing basis, I suspect that most of you will benefit from tuning in.

Doty and Collins are liars and frauds. Learn the facts about MJ-12!

--Robert Hastings
www.ufohastings.com
 
After I emailed the message posted above to several people, Robert Emenegger sent me this response. If you don't recognize his name, google it, together with "UFO".

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Emenegger
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: re MJ12 & BIRDS



At last someone is going for it...to expose the birds and their droppings for all the pigeons to see. I cheer you on.

Bob
 
Robert Emenegger... he is an author?

A brief perusal of the Google hits seems to indicate he is sympathetic to Exopolitics? Ill listen to one of his interviews.
 
Hello Paracasters,


Below is today's email exchange between myself and Richard Doty (who was masquerading as "Paul McGovern") and my subsequent email to others with an interest in the MJ-12 and Serpo hoaxes:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: undisclosed recipients
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 4:34 PM
Subject: Richard Doty's latest lie

All,
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:p></O:p>
As I mention in my "Operation Bird Droppings" (OBD) article, Richard Doty has frequently used the name "Paul McGovern" when emailing people over the last few years, especially in relation to the Doty-disseminated Project Serpo hoax. This fact was discovered by the researchers at Reality Uncovered. A detailed discussion regarding Richard Doty pretending to be Paul McGovern may be found at http://www.realityuncovered.com/expose8.shtml. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Earlier today, "McGovern" emailed me (below) in response to my mass-emailed message about my upcoming appearance on the Paracast radio show, which airs this Sunday, May 24th. Please go to the bottom of the email chain below and read up. As you will see, Doty/McGovern accuses me of once having physically run away from Doty. Given that I have never met the man, that's an interesting claim. In short, "McGovern's" email to me is more of the classic Doty bluff and bluster, and lying of course.<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
As noted in my OBD article, the Reality Uncovered folks also exposed as lies Doty's claims--in Bob Collins' 2005 book Exempt from Disclosure--of having graduated from law school and having passed the New Mexico bar exam. This fact was brought to Collins' attention as early as 2006 and yet Collins has not removed or amended Doty's false claims in the latest edition of his book. Birds of a feather...<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
All of this is just the tip of the iceberg. In short, Richard "Falcon" Doty and Robert "Condor" Collins are liars and frauds. These are the same guys who want you and everyone else to believe what they say about MJ-12, Serpo, and the rest of the nonsense they have been spreading around for the last 25 years. Please listen to the Paracast this Sunday.<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Robert Hastings<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<O:p></O:p>
----- Original Message ----- <O:p></O:p>
From: [email protected] <O:p></O:p>
To: [email protected] <O:p></O:p>
Cc: ------ and ------
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 11:41 AM<O:p></O:p>
Subject: Doty/McGovern<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Hi Rick,<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Still pretending to be "Paul McGovern" I see. Are you still pretending to have completed law school and the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
><st1:State alt=
</st1:State><ST1:place w:st="on">New Mexico</ST1:place> bar exam too? I mention that on the show. <O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>
You and Collins are indeed liars and frauds and I hope to be able to prove that in a court of law someday. I think I will call the NM State Police later today and find out whether they ever did an investigation into your threats and false claims to Shawnna [Connolly] at Reality Uncovered.<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Well, at least you spelled everything correctly in your email to me. Spell check is marvelous, isn't it?<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Robert Hastings<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
----- Original Message ----- <O:p></O:p>
From: Paul McGovern <O:p></O:p>
To: [email protected] <O:p></O:p>
Cc: ------ and ------ and ------
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 9:26 AM<O:p></O:p>
Subject: Re: Robert Emenegger responds<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
You had absolutely nothing to do with the UFO program. Everything you say or write is second and third person. How do you expect anyone to believe your nonsense. We were involved in this program and it was FACT. You are a pathetic human being. I hear you ran from Doty when he tried to speak with you. What a coward.<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>






<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>

From:[email protected]
To: undisclosed recipients
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:58:40 AM
Subject: Robert Emenegger responds<O:p></O:p>

After I emailed the Heads-up message (below) to several people, Robert Emenegger sent me this response. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
If you don't recognize his name, google it, together with "UFO"
<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
----- Original Message ----- <O:p></O:p>
From: Robert Emenegger<O:p></O:p>
To: [email protected] <O:p></O:p>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:39 PM<O:p></O:p>
Subject: re MJ12 & BIRDS<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
At last someone is going for it...to expose the birds and their droppings for all the pigeons to see. I cheer you on. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
Bob <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <O:p></O:p>

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Please post/email this. Thanks!


All,

Heads-up! This Sunday, May 24th, Don Ecker and I will be guests on the Paracast, discussing the MJ-12-related disinformation/boolsheet being disseminated nowadays by Bob "Condor" Collins and Richard "Falcon" Doty.

This broadcast is a in-depth follow-up to my recent "Operation Bird Droppings" article (and OBD Updates 1 and 2) which are now online.

While some persons seem oblivious to the importance of challenging Collins' and Doty's shenanigans, on an ongoing basis, I suspect that most of you will benefit from tuning in.

Doty and Collins are liars and frauds. Learn the facts about MJ-12!

--Robert Hastings
www.ufohastings.com<O:p></O:p>
 
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