UFOs and Nukes

[Trajanus]

Of course it would be important if it happened. But it was so long ago that I can't imagine that most Americans care one way or the other now. I could bring this up to any of my friends or family and I'm pretty confident all I'd get in return is a look of indifference.

It wasn't such a big deal in itself and was long ago but it, or something much worse, could reccur at any time.

He keeps accusing Hastings and Salas of doing what they are for money. I find that to be an absurd charge. It is extremely rare for anyone investigating and writing about UFOs to make money from it. I don't know why he can't accept that the reason they feel the way they do is because they honestly believe it to be true.

I imagine they did make a few bucks from Faded Giant but I still agree with the last statement.

 

[Xylo]

Well I don't know...what if a UFO did shut down the missiles? We're faced with the possibility that a civilization way ahead of ours is not exactly friendly. Potentially that's a very serious matter..maybe they do pose a threat to national security.

Or even worse...they're possibly so friendly that they will force their friendliness on us...disabling missiles and such. The ultimate party crashers.:shy:

 

[Ron Collins]

Or even worse...they're possibly so friendly that they will force their friendliness on us...disabling missiles and such. The ultimate party crashers.:shy:

I like this. Kind of like a planet of assertive 'Flanders'. (Of Simpsons fame)

For me personally the evidence I have seen would suggest something odd occurred. I would absolutely love to have someone find and contact the topside securiy teams in these incidents. At this point I think we really need their testimony to unequivocally determine the veracity of the reported event. Without it we are stuck with second hand reports and a barrage of information. Not to mention that barrage being difficult to understand and organize for a relatively quick assimilation.

I do applaud MR. Hastings for making working towards making the audio recordings available for our consumption. It seems to me that this may expose a somewhat duplicitous Col. Figel. Despite the 'wave off' Mr. Carlson gives the recordings in post #366 if Figel said it then Mr. Hastings and Mr. Salas should be given an apology on at least that particular circumstance. I'll wait until I hear the recording to be certain on that.

P.S. If the tape shows what they say it does the I will immediately hold my breath for the apology.

 

[Robert Hastings]

Hot off the presses!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10853905

Of course, the Brits are doing what the U.S. is doing: releasing the low-level stuff, when pressed, while keeping the really sensitive material classified--and unacknowledged. It's called "spin."

One example of a really sensitive case, which was nuclear weapons-related, is the Bentwaters incident. See http://www.ufodigest.com/news/1008/bentwaters.html

The primary source for the Bentwaters story, now-retired USAF Colonel Charles Halt, will be one of the participants in the press conference that Bob Salas and I are co-hosting in Washington D.C. on September 27th. Halt has said this about the case:

“The object to the south [of my position in the farmer’s field] was actually sending some beams down near, or into, the [nuclear] Weapons Storage Area. That caused me a great deal of concern. You know, what was it doing there? Was it searching for something, was it trying to—who knows what it was trying to do? …I believe the objects that I saw at close quarter were extraterrestrial in origin and that the security services of both the United States and England were and have been complicit in trying to subvert the significance of what occurred at Rendlesham by use of well-practiced methods of disinformation.”

--Robert Hastings
www.ufohastings.com

 

[Kandinsky]

Mr Hastings,
Have you been able to make contact with Carl F. Patrick of the New York Power Authority? Last year, I spent some time trying to find a current email or phone number to contact him. I think he was the main witness in the Indian Point UFO incident during the Hudson Valley flap. Is it possible that the Carl Patrick interviewed in Night Siege by Imbrogno, Pratt and Hynek is a different person?

By the late 90s, Carl Patrick had become the chief spokesperson for the NYPA. If it is indeed the same man, he could prove to be an useful addition to your witnesses. I understand he retired in 2000.

If it's not the same guy...my mistake.

Edit to add: I forgot to ask your thoughts on a UFO sighting from 1944 above one of the first processor of fissionable material for the Trinity Tests. It was described by Charles Fort...Metal Tube Hovers Over A-Plant

 

[Robert Hastings]

Hi Kandinsky,

No, I have not contacted Patrick or even attempted to. While one of the appendices in my book concerns UFO sightings at commercial nuclear power plants, I have focused on the military cases.

Re: your other question, while I am aware of an alleged newspaper report of a UFO near the Oak Ridge plant during WWII, I have yet to locate the article. So I am withholding judgment on that report.

Robert

 

[Kandinsky]

Okay. I can understand your focus on the military cases and realise its importance to you.

I was trying to make contact with Patrick to see if he'd confirm or deny the Indian Point incident (if it's the same person). During the time I spent looking into the event, I found that Indian Point had drawn a lot of criticism on grounds of safety. There's a graphic I have that shows the disaster zone should anything untoward occur with the plant. Needless to say, the population within the radius numbers in the millions.

It was quite startling to consider that something unknown could potentially gain control over a scenario so profoundly disastrous.

Regarding Oak Ridge, it would be further compelling evidence in support of your nuclear connection. Doubtless the witnesses have passed on and only documents or maybe news articles remain. At the same time, there's so much folklore attached to the subject that the incident might be apocryphal? I'm glad there's guys like yourself taking the plunge into the subject. I'd honestly find it too frustrating long term!

 

[Robert Hastings]

Regarding Oak Ridge, it would be further compelling evidence in support of your nuclear connection.

Sightings at Oak Ridge in the late 1940s and early 1950s are well-documented. Visit the nicap.org site you referenced earlier, which has verbatim excerpts from declassified documents.

About a year ago, I interviewed a former U.S. Navy pilot, Bud Clem, who was peripherally involved in a UFO incident at the Hanford Site in Washington state, in early 1945, months before the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Hanford provided plutonium for the latter, as well as the Trinity test in New Mexico. Clem's story follows:

© Copyright 2009 Robert L. <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = ST1 /><ST1lace w:st="on">Hastings</ST1lace>. All Rights Reserved.​

<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O></O><O></O>
Two Former World War II Fighter Pilots Report<O></O>​

UFO Experiences​

at the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</ST1lace><st1:City w:st="on">Hanford</st1:City> Plutonium Production Plant<O></O>​

in 1945<O></O>​

<O></O>
<O></O>
When World War II ended, in September 1945, Clarence R. “Bud” Clem was a Lieutenant Junior Grade (Lt. jg) in the U.S. Naval Reserves, serving as an F6F Hellcat fighter pilot assigned to Air Group 50 aboard the U.S.S. Cowpens CVL-25. In an email, Clem told me, “[After the Japanese surrendered,] the Cowpens was the first aircraft carrier to arrive in Tokyo Bay and I was with the first flight to land at Yokasuka Naval Air Station (NAS) that day.”<O></O>
<O></O>
However, almost a year earlier, the Hellcat squadron had been based at NAS Klamath Falls, Oregon. “Our group was deployed to NAS Pasco, Washington for ground support training in March 1945.” Clem wrote, “The Hanford Ordnance Works was just across the Columbia River from <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Pasco</st1:City></ST1lace> and designated TOP SECRET. We experienced an unknown object over the <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Hanford</st1:City></ST1lace> site in March/April, 1945. I did not fly after the object, as two members of our squadron did, but I did assist in trying to determine what was going on. I am 84 and I do not know if any other members of our squadron are still alive [who] could add more information. If you have any information about our experience, I would like to see what the official report stated.” <O></O>
<O></O>
I wrote to Clem, saying that I didn’t have any official reports relating to the incident. I then asked for more details. Clem responded, <O></O>
<O></O>
One night, shortly after the evening meal, the officers were gathered at the Officers Club for relaxation when the duty officer at the tower called our commander with a request. Lt. Commander Richard Brown took the call, as the Captain was in conference. Ensign C.T. Neal and I were with Brown and he asked us if we would volunteer to go with him to the flight line for possible duty. We both agreed and a jeep was waiting at the door to take us to the flight line. We learned that an unknown ‘bogey’ was over the Hanford Ordnance Works, according to the radar operator located on an auxiliary field just across the Columbia River from <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">Hanford</ST1lace></st1:City> reservation.<O></O>

We had been instructed upon arrival that the Hanford Ordnance Works was Top Secret and NO flights over any part were permitted...We did not know about the radar, but the duty officer stated that something was in the sky over the area and wanted someone to investigate. A plane was [already] armed and warmed-up on the tarmac. Brown stated he would go and Neal was to stand-by in another plane, in case of trouble. I was to join the [controller] in the tower and communicate info from radar to the pilots.<O></O>

Brown quickly found the object, a bright ball of fire, and took chase. But he could not close, even with water injection that gave a quick boost in speed. The object headed out NW towards <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Seattle</st1:City></ST1lace> and was quickly lost by radar. Brown returned to base and we three retired to the club, still shaking and wondering what we had encountered.

<O></O>
Memory does not recall details of two similar experiences—I think Neal was to take the next chase—but the object disappeared before he got airborne. I was assigned to fly the entire [<st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">Hanford</ST1lace></st1:City>] reservation at low altitude (200 feet or so) to give the radar operator the blind spots [caused by the terrain]…<O></O>

The third, and last attempt on our part to ‘catch’ and identify the object came just shortly before we returned to Klamath Falls, and then on to California and Hawaii, before joining the 7th Fleet in combat. I do not know if any other incidents occurred after we left <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">Washington</st1:State></ST1lace>. None of the above information was mentioned in the ‘history’ of our squadron but I wonder what is on record at NAS Pasco.<SUP>1</SUP><O></O>
<O></O>
I asked Clem, “During the first incident, how long did it take for the aircraft to get to <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Hanford</st1:City></ST1lace>?” He replied, “Not long. An aircraft was always ready to fly on short notice to intercept the Japanese incendiary balloons. If you’ve read the history of that project, and the concern the balloons caused, it would have been logical to intercept them before they could reach <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Hanford</st1:City></ST1lace>.” <O></O>
<O></O>
I asked Clem if the pilot on the first night, Lt. Commander Brown, had described the object in detail, either over the radio or back at the Officers Club. Clem replied, “He just said it was so bright that you could hardly look directly at it. As he closed on it, it took off to the northwest at a high rate of speed. No maneuvers really, just a straight-line course.” <O></O>
<O></O>
Other questions to Clem added few details. He later sent me his military records which revealed that the fighter squadron was actually at <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">Pasco</ST1lace></st1:City> from January 9 to February 15, 1945, not during March and April, as he had first indicated. <O></O>
<O></O>
But Bud Clem’s account is not unique. Another former World War II fighter pilot, Rolan D. Powell, states that he too was involved in a UFO intercept attempt at the <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">Hanford</ST1lace></st1:City> plant, possibly in July 1945. That incident was first mentioned in a self-published book by Byron D. Varner, an aviation cadet during World War II whose naval career included a 13-year stint as a Navy Public Affairs Officer.
<O></O>
Upon learning of Powell’s report, Walt Andrus, former International Director of the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), located and interviewed him. According to a short article available at nicap.org, Powell told Andrus that while he was unaware of the whereabouts of the other five aviators who had been involved in the action, and did not even remember their full names, they had nevertheless belonged to a squadron of 12 veteran fighter pilots who had survived combat in the Pacific as members of Air Group 3, while assigned to the U.S.S. Yorktown CV-10.
<O></O>
According to the article,
<O></O>
Powell estimated that the event took place six weeks before the Japanese surrendered on September 2, 1945, which puts the sighting in the middle of July 1945. Powell told Andrus that six F6F [aircraft] made visual contact with the object, [which was] described as the size of three aircraft carriers side-by-side, oval shaped, very streamlined, like a stretched-out egg, and pinkish in color. Powell reported that some kind of vapor was being emitted around the outside edges from portholes or vents. He speculated that the vapor was being discharged to form a cloud for disguise. The object was observed at noon in a clear sky at an estimated altitude of 65,000 feet.
The F6Fs went up as high as 42,000 feet, well above their rated ceiling of 37,000 feet, but could not reach the large object, which hovered above the <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">Hanford</ST1lace></st1:City> nuclear reactor for an additional 20 minutes, before going straight up as the six Hellcats gave up the intercept.<SUP>2</SUP>

A rather dramatic account, to say the least! Hopefully, at least some of the other members of Powell’s squadron who participated in this action can be located and interviewed. Efforts are currently underway to do just that. <O></O>
<O></O>

In any case, given Bud Clem’s recent report to me, it now appears likely that UFO surveillance at <st1:country-region w:st="on">America</st1:country-region>’s nuclear weapons sites began at least several months prior to the successful test of the first atomic bomb, in the <ST1lace w:st="on"><st1:State w:st="on">New Mexico</st1:State></ST1lace> desert, on July 16, 1945. Moreover, if Rolan Powell’s estimate of the date of his encounter at <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace w:st="on">Hanford</ST1lace></st1:City> is reasonably accurate, the event he describes would have occurred around the time of the test. (That said, Bud Clem’s initial estimate of his squadron’s presence at the Pasco NAS was off by some two months, perhaps not unreasonably, given that the reported incident occurred over 60 years ago. Similarly, Powell’s estimate of the time-frame for his own experience may be somewhat inaccurate as well.) <O></O>
<O></O>
References<O></O>
<O></O>
1. Bud Clem to Robert Hastings, personal communication, April 2, 2009<O></O>
2. http://www.nicap.org/ncp/ncp-hanford45.htm<O></O>
<O></O>
<O></O>
--Robert Hastings<O></O>
www.ufohastings.com <O></O>
<O></O>

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I like this. Kind of like a planet of assertive 'Flanders'. (Of Simpsons fame)

For me personally the evidence I have seen would suggest something odd occurred. I would absolutely love to have someone find and contact the topside securiy teams in these incidents. At this point I think we really need their testimony to unequivocally determine the veracity of the reported event. Without it we are stuck with second hand reports and a barrage of information. Not to mention that barrage being difficult to understand and organize for a relatively quick assimilation.

I do applaud MR. Hastings for making working towards making the audio recordings available for our consumption. It seems to me that this may expose a somewhat duplicitous Col. Figel. Despite the 'wave off' Mr. Carlson gives the recordings in post #366 if Figel said it then Mr. Hastings and Mr. Salas should be given an apology on at least that particular circumstance. I'll wait until I hear the recording to be certain on that.

P.S. If the tape shows what they say it does the I will immediately hold my breath for the apology.

Ron, I agree that something odd did happen, if what Mr. Hastings says is true, although we can never be sure. However, as usual, a jump in logic is being made to think that UFOs controlled by non-human intelligent life forms were the cause. That's when my rational thinker/ buzzkill skeptic brain starts to get involved. I really doubt that aliens are messing with nukes.

 

[Ron Collins]

Ron, I agree that something odd did happen, if what Mr. Hastings says is true, although we can never be sure. However, as usual, a jump in logic is being made to think that UFOs controlled by non-human intelligent life forms were the cause. That's when my rational thinker/ buzzkill skeptic brain starts to get involved. I really doubt that aliens are messing with nukes.

I would agree that the case details themselves(as reported by Salas and Hastings) do not indicate an origin of the phenomenon if indeed something actually happened. Even if all eight(it was 8 right?) security personnel saw a 'UFO' then we would still not have a clear cut case for 'alien' visitation. I will always stipulate that point. With that said I find it absurd(easily equal to your feeling of the 'alien' stuff) to think such an object was/is a U.S. Military aircraft. For me personally, there is more evidence for alien visitation than there is for the military/aerospace industry possessing such a craft. Especially if we must postulate that it was conducting an experiment over a live nuclear ICBM launching center during the incline years of the Cold War. I would ask you to stipulate that this(the US military experiment over a live nuke part) is as practically impossible and also highly improbable.

 

[Gareth]

I have no idea what is and isnt true in all this.

But to suggest that Salas / Hastings make this stuff up in order to make money seems kind of ridiculous to me. WHAT MONEY?

 

[Paul Kimball]

I have no idea what is and isnt true in all this.

But to suggest that Salas / Hastings make this stuff up in order to make money seems kind of ridiculous to me. WHAT MONEY?

I can't speak about Hastings, but I know Bob Salas - he went on to have a long and successful career as an educator after he left the USAF, and he has a nice home in Ojai, California. He doesn't need the money, and to suggest that he's in it for the money is ridiculous. I am convinced that he believes (a) that he had a genuine experience, and (b) that he believes that nuclear weapons are wrong, and that the aliens are here to tell us that - hence their appearance at nuclear facilities. I'm not saying either of these things is true, but I have no doubt that Salas believes that they are.

 

[Trajanus]

I have no idea what is and isnt true in all this.

But to suggest that Salas / Hastings make this stuff up in order to make money seems kind of ridiculous to me. WHAT MONEY?

They nerver got royalties from Faded Giant? But I'm not questioning their veracity.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

Ron, I agree that something odd did happen, if what Mr. Hastings says is true, although we can never be sure. However, as usual, a jump in logic is being made to think that UFOs controlled by non-human intelligent life forms were the cause. That's when my rational thinker/ buzzkill skeptic brain starts to get involved. I really doubt that aliens are messing with nukes.

If something extrinsic to the facility did shut down the missiles, who else but aliens could've done it, in the manner described? Even if the soviets had the reckless temerity to do it at the height of the cold war, did they have UFOs or beams? Why doubt that ETs are messing with missiles? In the long run, as our civilization enters space, our nukes might threaten them. So why not keep an eye on them and occasionally test their means of knocking them out?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I can't speak about Hastings, but I know Bob Salas - he went on to have a long and successful career as an educator after he left the USAF, and he has a nice home in Ojai, California. He doesn't need the money, and to suggest that he's in it for the money is ridiculous. I am convinced that he believes (a) that he had a genuine experience, and (b) that he believes that nuclear weapons are wrong, and that the aliens are here to tell us that - hence their appearance at nuclear facilities. I'm not saying either of these things is true, but I have no doubt that Salas believes that they are.

That makes a lot of sense Paul. I don't think that he's making up what he saw. We just can't be sure of what it was.

 

[Ezechiel]

I am convinced that he believes (a) that he had a genuine experience, and (b) that he believes that nuclear weapons are wrong, and that the aliens are here to tell us that - hence their appearance at nuclear facilities. I'm not saying either of these things is true, but I have no doubt that Salas believes that they are.

IMHO, these 2 assertions are undisputable. Unless you have severe financial or psychological issues, there's no way any sane human would expose himself to such extreme adversity.

There was an era where people thought the earth was flat. This is an era where people think the universe is empty. It takes courageous people like Mr. Salas to get some eyes opened and get a better perspective of our status in this universe. There's no way Mr. Salas is in this crap for money.




Nuclear technology applications actually offers these doors to humanity:

• The potential for interstellar travel
• Total annihilation

Any civilization observing (or exploiting) our planet for a long time would recognize this lethal crossroad... and you would think they would take the appropriate actions to deliver a message (given they had a vested interest in our planet).

The 'UFOs and Nukes' issue is really about alien vested interests and the potential of future communications with these alien entities.

Its not about us.... its about them. This is why this subject is a source of terror for any earthly organized government whose dominion is threatened by potential enslavement by entities working in environments humans haven't mastered yet.

IMHO, you won't see any disclosure until humans are no longer at the bottom of the technological pyramid. Churchill should have put at least a 200 year cover up

 

[Trajanus]

....and (b) that he believes that nuclear weapons are wrong,

Nuclear weapons not only preserved the peace (prevented world war) for 65 years, they probably also saved the democracies, given the extreme difficulty they'd have had building a sufficient alternative (conventional) defense in peacetime.

and that the aliens are here to tell us that - hence their appearance at nuclear facilities.

That may be a significant aspect of their misson but far from the only one.

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:13 PM ----------

Nuclear technology applications actually offers these doors to humanity:

• The potential for interstellar travel
• Total annihilation

Any civilization observing (or exploiting) our planet for a long time would recognize this lethal crossroad... and you would think they would take the appropriate actions to deliver a message (given they had a vested interest in our planet).

I don't think they necessarily care what happens to us, or what we do to ourselves. If we blow ourselves up, they might be glad, especially if the environment could recover, with or without their help. IMO, they're just concerned about a future threat we might pose with n-weapons in space.

Churchill should have put at least a 200 year cover up

I just heard he was allegedly behind it--contrary to what appeared in Good's old tome. According to the latter, he was just fed the standard misinterpretations line.

 

[justcurious]

I don't think they necessarily care what happens to us, or what we do to ourselves. If we blow ourselves up, they might be glad, especially if the environment could recover, with or without their help. IMO, they're just concerned about a future threat we might pose with n-weapons in space.

Aaaaah ETH, sweet ETH, when it gets me...

 

[Ezechiel]

I don't think they necessarily care what happens to us, or what we do to ourselves. If we blow ourselves up, they might be glad, especially if the environment could recover, with or without their help. IMO, they're just concerned about a future threat we might pose with n-weapons in space.

What's interesting (if the accounts are true) is that these aliens felt the need to demonstrate that they could neutralize stationary missiles in silos as well as a test missile in movement

Looks more like a rank confirmation.
Making the military aware of the futility of our weapons relative to alien technological capabilities could be a possible objective. As in: 'Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side' LOL

You bring a good point... how and why would any alien civilization spend energy decoding the complex dynamics and volatility of earthly politics. The first concern of any foreign entity is security, self-preservation.... nukes should obviously be priority 1.

 

[Trajanus]

Making the military aware of the futility of our weapons relative to alien technological capabilities could be a possible objective.

Or just testing their ability to deal with it.

 

[Hotkafka]

What's interesting (if the accounts are true) is that these aliens felt the need to demonstrate that they could neutralize stationary missiles in silos as well as a test missile in movement

Looks more like a rank confirmation.
Making the military aware of the futility of our weapons relative to alien technological capabilities could be a possible objective. As in: 'Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side' LOL

You bring a good point... how and why would any alien civilization spend energy decoding the complex dynamics and volatility of earthly politics. The first concern of any foreign entity is security, self-preservation.... nukes should obviously be priority 1.

This theory of benevolent aliens intervening to keep the human race in line is an endearing thought indeed, however: where the hell were they when we rained fire and death on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Seriously.