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The Ultimate Roundtable? Ask Gene and Chris
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
- Start date
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
...a Paracast episode and ATP event where one host expressed utter and total disbelief.
red_pill_junkie
Paranormal Adept
Feliz cumpleaños, Gene! [emoji1]
I'd bring a cake so you could blow out the candles, but we don't want to start a forest fire [emoji12]
Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk
I look forward to hearing what the ATP event is ...
Part II of the discussion.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Where Chris let even more loose. It's probably the most in depth we've ever heard him get regarding personal paranormal biography, though I got the sense we were just getting into it with him. If I ever journey into the Canyon I want him as guide, but I want to hear his stories - a fascinating life to be certain.
I'm enjoying the roundtable already, one ad break in!
I too agree about hallucinogens and paranormal research; a bad trip in real haunted house could be pretty intense tho!
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I too agree about hallucinogens and paranormal research; a bad trip in real haunted house could be pretty intense tho!
Rather than going through it all over again I'll just post the link where one of the debates on this took place: Thoughts on conscience, entities, ufos plus AYAHUASCA
I have not changed my position on the issue. Nor am I likely to. In no instance can I endorse the intentional use of psychedelics alone or in conjunction with occult rituals as tools for the exploration of the UFO phenomenon. The farthest I'm willing to go is to look for correlations between elements of the experiences of those who choose to do it on their own, and elements in the broader field of ufology, including culture, mythology, religion, and paranormal or UFO experiences.
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red_pill_junkie
Paranormal Adept
So, after finding one or two instances of 'reefer-madness-like' psychedelic 'porn' we are to dismiss all the HUNDREDS of tales in which these substances had an overwhelmingly positive effect on the subject? I'm sure Amber Lyon, who used to work for CNN, had a very lucrative job and then decided to leave it all behind, went to the jungle, took the ayahuasca brew and had lis life perspective changed FOREVER, now pushing her to promote the untapped benefits psychedelics cannoffer to Western society, could say a thing or two about all this...
(And yes, there's a downside to the current trend of 'psychedelic tourism' in South America. One of them being that there WILL be charlatans and conmen seeking to partake of the large flow of dollars from the 'Gringos' coming to the jungle seeking to meet God or whatever)
To me the psychedelic experience is very much akin to mountain climbing: It is not something that EVERYONE should try. There ARE dangers to face, and if you don't make the necessary precautions and proper training, you WILL suffer the consequences of your recklesness.
Furthermore, I bet there have been far more people who died trying to climb mount Everest, than from using psychedelics. Does that mean we should BAN mountain climbing, and put a wall around Everest to prevent those 'foolish climbers' to follow their passion?
"You shouldn't use drugs or they will mess up your brain." Well, TOO LATE! We're immersed in a society which condones AND promotes the use of *certain* types of drugs --the ones which fosters consumerist behaviors: Caffeine, which makes you more 'alert' and productive at work; alcohol, which dulls your alertness so you can unwind after spending the better part of your life, and have a bit of fun before you get back in the production line like the good, little COG you are.
But drugs which can *wake you up* and make you realize you don't HAVE to be just a replaceable cog in service of a system which only seeks to imprison men, either physically or mentally? THOSE WE HAVE TO BAN FOR THEY ARE DANGEROUS!
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Agreed RPJ. Absolutely psychedelic drugs are not things to be toyed with or taken lightly. I fully endorse the argument that sane adults should be able to decide for themselves when they are not directly endangering others.
Your argument about mountain climbers is one I've used myself. Ditto for any 'adrenaline junky' sport. But I can extend the argument even more and look at it like this:
A person taking such drugs at worst may hurt/kill themselves. Very unlikely they will hurt anyone else directly.
A person who gets into trouble even in the relatively small mountains in Scotland, regularly will cause a military helicopter to fly in very dangerous conditions looking for them and at the same time a group of volunteer mountain rescue people will be on the ground below in treacherous conditions also.
All of them endangering their lives for one solitary climber who just had to go hillwalking in winter conditions. Ditto for other 'healthy' pursuits.
People die every single year in the hills in Scotland and every time, many more people and machinery will be engaged to go and try save their butt's.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should be prevented from dangerous pursuits; most of them will have taken steps to minimise risks and will have weighed the pros and cons risk-wise for themselves. I only expect that adults wishing to pursue psychedelic experience should be afforded the same rights when they are sane enough to also weigh the risks etc.
Don't get me started on the fact that if alcohol was a newly discovered drug, it would be immediately classed as a highly dangerous poison that has horrendous potential for abuse and for users to act in ways few other drugs can even come close to matching....
Your argument about mountain climbers is one I've used myself. Ditto for any 'adrenaline junky' sport. But I can extend the argument even more and look at it like this:
A person taking such drugs at worst may hurt/kill themselves. Very unlikely they will hurt anyone else directly.
A person who gets into trouble even in the relatively small mountains in Scotland, regularly will cause a military helicopter to fly in very dangerous conditions looking for them and at the same time a group of volunteer mountain rescue people will be on the ground below in treacherous conditions also.
All of them endangering their lives for one solitary climber who just had to go hillwalking in winter conditions. Ditto for other 'healthy' pursuits.
People die every single year in the hills in Scotland and every time, many more people and machinery will be engaged to go and try save their butt's.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people should be prevented from dangerous pursuits; most of them will have taken steps to minimise risks and will have weighed the pros and cons risk-wise for themselves. I only expect that adults wishing to pursue psychedelic experience should be afforded the same rights when they are sane enough to also weigh the risks etc.
Don't get me started on the fact that if alcohol was a newly discovered drug, it would be immediately classed as a highly dangerous poison that has horrendous potential for abuse and for users to act in ways few other drugs can even come close to matching....
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
I didn't say we should dismiss anything. My comments are in the context of drugs being used as tools for the investigation of the UFO phenomenon. The last thing the field needs is a quasi-religious UFO drug cult pushing the use of chemicals in order to contact alien beings. At the same time, if there was some group or another who independently decided that is what they want to do, then the responsibility of ufologists to report on it as objectively as possible is reasonable. We should know what is going on in the field on a cultural level and make a genuine effort to understand the pros and cons and what effect it has on our understanding of the phenomenon.
I'm glad you recognize that there are risks. I would also like to point out, using your example of mountain climbing, that few people really need to go mountain climbing in order to learn about mountains. It's an extreme sport, mainly for those who get some personal thrill or other satisfaction from the experience. BTW I would suggest that it also takes a very clear mind, training, and discipline. I would be far more inclined to believe a UFO story told by clear headed mountain climber than one told by someone high on drugs.
I'm not speaking to the issue of legalization. Personally I think the war on drugs has been huge waste of resources that could be better spent on other things, and that if people were given freedom of choice, a lot of the associated crime would dry up and we'd all be better off for it. We're seeing some progress there, but in the meantime I see a serious lack of social responsibility on the part of drug users, who for the sake of their own high, are responsible for supporting a dark violent side of the trade. If people quit buying from those suppliers and put them out of business, that might go a long way to demonstrating that we deserve legalization. But again that's all a separate issue.
Again, the responsible use of drugs is a separate issue. It's its use as a tool during the investigation of the UFO phenomenon that I don't endorse. Take a tab, go sit on a hillside. Enjoy the trip. But don't expect any UFO report that results from it to be taken seriously, and even if it turned out that there really was a UFO during your experience, how would being on a drug trip at the time in any way help you objectively document the sighting, or convince anyone else it happened? To me the answers here are so obvious that it makes me question the rational ability of anyone who supports the idea of using drugs as an investigative tool for the UFO phenomenon.
Your lively participation on the issues discussed here is always welcomed
.
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red_pill_junkie
Paranormal Adept
Well, what can I say? To me the people who insist this phenomenons is BETTER understood as the manifestations of extraterrestrial interlopers flying (and crashing) around onboard metallic spaceships seem very much like religious fundamentalists [emoji16]
I think the crux of our disagreement is this idea of upholding 'objectivity.' Pretty much a dictum of our modern, Western, materialist society. And yet something which IMHO completely FALLS APART when it comes to this and other fringe phenomena.
Even the very act of being in close proximity to one of these objects seems to automatically propel you into an altered state of consciousness! Vallee talked about it in terms of the energy output emanating from ghe UFO, though I myself suspect it might be an inherent aspect of the human psyche, on how it operates when confronted with 'border' phenomena --I'd imagine being placidly sitting in one's bedroom, and then witnessing your TV turning on and your local news anchor appearing and talking to you as if he was able to see and hear you, would be an incredibly trippy experience [emoji41]
So, NO: There are *no* 100%, completely objective UFO witnesses, even if they weren't under the influence of some ingested or consumed psychedelic substance --you might as well try to expunge all that 'NASTY' DMT flowing around their cerebral cortex [emoji14]
My own personal speculation is that this phenomenon is trying to teach us lessons which cannot be grasped by mere rationality alone. We're so obsessed with these notions of 'objective facts' and external effects, we may be missing out the point that these are all arbitrary notions; and in the end possibly quite pointless, when it comes to addressing these mysteries.
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If I may interject here, RPJ and Randall, Randall I think you are being pretty fair regarding drugs etc except that I believe you are being a little simplistic with thoughts which basically convey anyone seeing a UFO whilst under the influence of drugs is not much of a witness. Whilst no doubt a large number of people would agree with you, and to a degree I do but I think what Chris was suggesting was something more scientific, something with the controls and observation and recording that is part of scientific endeavour.
So what I am suggesting at least is putting to one side simple observations of UFOs, what might be worth studying is perhaps ideas such as possibly exploring whether an aspect of the UFO phenomenon could be 'called upon' by someone talking a psychedic drug. We know of many reports of people on DMT an suchlike, having some kind of interaction with classic alien archetypes, as if taking the drug opens some kind of communication pathway to paranormal entities of some kind.
Of course such a course probably doesn't make much sense if the answer to UFOs is that they are solely piloted nuts n bolts crafts from other planets etc. Whilst I know you are mostly (totally?) and ETH man, you of course are aware of those who believe UFOs might have an even stranger source than the ETH. To many, it is hard to reconcile a large part of Ufology that seems to fit with the ETH, and the other aspects that are downright bizarre and often parallel other distinct paranormal phenomena.
So basically I am saying that for those who think there may be a more high-strange origin to the mystery of UFOs, it doesn't seem at all strange or nonsensical to explore different states of mind, because many already think human consciousness has a huge part to play in the UFO phenomenon. Many have reported sudden urges that literally commanded that they go outside and look at the sky, and they have then had amazing UFO sightings.
If such reports have any validity at all, then to me at least, this suggests non-physical means are affecting the conscious mind and doing so at the same time or just before a UFO can be sighted. Considering how low the chances are of anyone just deciding to go outside and look up to then see a UFO, it seems at least worth investigating when people report that they have received some telepathic indication of an imminent sighting.
As much as I despise Steven Greer and his pay-per-view UFO gatherings, I see little to be lost in at least trying to monitor some willing subjects who are up for taking psychedelic drugs and seeing if they can 'call in' a UFO or two. In terms of an experiment, the cost and materials is so low, there isn't much to lose in trying. Perhaps Chris could expand on his ideas for experimentation with drugs and high strange events.
So what I am suggesting at least is putting to one side simple observations of UFOs, what might be worth studying is perhaps ideas such as possibly exploring whether an aspect of the UFO phenomenon could be 'called upon' by someone talking a psychedic drug. We know of many reports of people on DMT an suchlike, having some kind of interaction with classic alien archetypes, as if taking the drug opens some kind of communication pathway to paranormal entities of some kind.
Of course such a course probably doesn't make much sense if the answer to UFOs is that they are solely piloted nuts n bolts crafts from other planets etc. Whilst I know you are mostly (totally?) and ETH man, you of course are aware of those who believe UFOs might have an even stranger source than the ETH. To many, it is hard to reconcile a large part of Ufology that seems to fit with the ETH, and the other aspects that are downright bizarre and often parallel other distinct paranormal phenomena.
So basically I am saying that for those who think there may be a more high-strange origin to the mystery of UFOs, it doesn't seem at all strange or nonsensical to explore different states of mind, because many already think human consciousness has a huge part to play in the UFO phenomenon. Many have reported sudden urges that literally commanded that they go outside and look at the sky, and they have then had amazing UFO sightings.
If such reports have any validity at all, then to me at least, this suggests non-physical means are affecting the conscious mind and doing so at the same time or just before a UFO can be sighted. Considering how low the chances are of anyone just deciding to go outside and look up to then see a UFO, it seems at least worth investigating when people report that they have received some telepathic indication of an imminent sighting.
As much as I despise Steven Greer and his pay-per-view UFO gatherings, I see little to be lost in at least trying to monitor some willing subjects who are up for taking psychedelic drugs and seeing if they can 'call in' a UFO or two. In terms of an experiment, the cost and materials is so low, there isn't much to lose in trying. Perhaps Chris could expand on his ideas for experimentation with drugs and high strange events.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Many excellent points made all around. Our society does seem to value more the life of the inexperienced climber and will risk lives to save the extreme sportster, but will not do the same for the psychonaut. Even worse is the criminalization of the addict who is rarely shown compassion+sympathy, or treated as a mental health issue. We have issues with drugs because they break reality. We also, btw, have issues with paranormal phenomenon and UFO's because they also break reality. Go figure...
There is no question that there are specific parallels between heightened hallucinogenic experiences and ritualistic practices, intense meditation and paranormal/UFO events. That's why they are called EXPERIENCES and people who enage in such practices are EXPERIENCERS. So, IMHO, the experiment suggested by Chris on the show, to have a control group of observers/abstainers and psychonauts or other experience experimenters engage, is not just valid but necessary. Clinical tests would help as well to identify whether or not witnesses were experiencing brain chemistry vs. an external agent, and whether or not there is a legitimate path from straight reality to that of paranormality.
There is no question that there are specific parallels between heightened hallucinogenic experiences and ritualistic practices, intense meditation and paranormal/UFO events. That's why they are called EXPERIENCES and people who enage in such practices are EXPERIENCERS. So, IMHO, the experiment suggested by Chris on the show, to have a control group of observers/abstainers and psychonauts or other experience experimenters engage, is not just valid but necessary. Clinical tests would help as well to identify whether or not witnesses were experiencing brain chemistry vs. an external agent, and whether or not there is a legitimate path from straight reality to that of paranormality.
Randall
J. Randall Murphy
What's meant by "better" and "phenomenon" there? If the phenomenon to be understood is a hallucination, maybe it's better understood on a subjective level by the person hallucinating. On the other hand, if we're talking about an object detected on radar that an Air Force jet is attempting to intercept, then lets hope everyone has their wits about them and aren't hallucinating.
Not exactly. It certainly doesn't hurt to be able to exercise objectivity, but that speaks to an even deeper issue, and that is credibility, which in-turn is based on accuracy. I don't think there is any question that given the task of describing an incident, the person high on drugs will virtually always score lower than a clear headed objective investigator when it comes to accuracy.
Even more reason to be as clear headed as possible.
Everything we experience is subjective so it's true that 100% objectivity is unattainable, but that doesn't mean there is always 0% objectivity. There are degrees of objectivity and accuracy, and the more clear minded someone is, the more likely the reports of his or her experiences will be. On the other hand, if that person is experiencing hallucinations, the overlay of that experience onto perceptions of objective reality are obviously more likely to cause confusion between the two.
I have no idea what the intent of the aliens is, but I suspect that they are more interested in what they can learn than what they can teach us, and that in some cases we're just incidental. I would agree however that regardless of whatever intent the aliens may or may not have, the UFO experience is very powerful on a personal level that goes beyond sheer logical analysis, and that together, those of us who have had such an experience, share a worldview that with respect to the objective reality of our place in the universe, has this extra layer of understanding to it.
red_pill_junkie
Paranormal Adept
'Credibility' is another fetish obsession of the modern UFOlogy movement. Quite ironic and paradoxical IMO, because in our culture credibility has to do with status and the power obtained by it. That's why the testimony of a homeless person is deemed 'less credible' than the testimony of a politician or a police officer --even if the latter secretly enjoy snorting cocaine on the weekend...
But the paradox relies in the fact that the subject studied by UFOlogy --UFOs-- is so AGAINST the fabric of the status quo, it will NEVER attain enough credibility in the eyes of those on top of our societal pyramid.
UFOs will only attain credibility once our societal structure goes through a paradigm shift.
Maybe
Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk
But the paradox relies in the fact that the subject studied by UFOlogy --UFOs-- is so AGAINST the fabric of the status quo, it will NEVER attain enough credibility in the eyes of those on top of our societal pyramid.
UFOs will only attain credibility once our societal structure goes through a paradigm shift.
Maybe
Enviado desde mi SM-P900 mediante Tapatalk
Randall, there is no point in having this conversation with you.
As ridiculous as you will find this, I have always felt that when one becomes psychoactively aware, the level of "clearheadedness" goes off the scale. I have never had the quality of crystal clear insight than I have had while under the influence of psychoactive substances—especially DMT and psilocybin. This is a concept that your limited reality view will never be able to understand. Let's agree to disagree, OK? My example as stated in the episode features psychoactive awareness in some participants and others who are not under the influence as the control group. The elegance of this untried idea/approach could have tremendous value towards further understanding the phenomenon. If you can't see this, there is no point discussing it further with you.