The tactics of the JREF

[tyder001]

Ya know when I first started to post on the internet many years ago. I was intimidated. I thought "Man, if I post my deepest beliefs I bet some smart athiest will eat me for lunch." But, being the brave soul (or brain fart) that I am I ventured out. What did I find? I found that "logic" had nothing to do with being a believer in spiritual matters or being an atheist. I found that "some" of those who call themselves "logical" are the most tribal and small thinking and cultish of all. I found that their "reasons" for no believing didn't make any more or any less sense than a persons reason for beleiving in certain aspects of life. I still remember being on a certain (not this one) paranomal message board some years ago. A person who believed in spritual reality was debating a person who was a staunch athiest. After a couple of exchanges the atheist actually said "I'm gonna get reinforcements." Before ya know it three or four "new" folks came out of the woodwork to defend his "rationality." Now, does that mean all people who are athiest are wrong? Of course not! But, it did serve to show me that all Gods/darwins chillun have issues. So, these days NO, but Hell No I'm not intimidated. As I said before I am a true skeptic. I question my deepest held belifes and I question the methods of whoever is making a claim. Be they a believer or a unbeliever.

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

tyder carlitos has a pretty much stock answer for all UFOs.

"BLIMP"

You are right. That's the problem with zealots. I honestly meant it when I said I wouldn't waste my time on the Randi forum. Same reason I don't post on a religious conservative or progressive liberal forum. the mind is already made up.

 

[manxman]

Amen to that, i come over as argumentative because i feel that if someone who makes a claim, even a throw away line, the onus to defend that claim or admit an error margin is on them, doesn't matter what the topic is, or which entrenched end they are in, however the net is not like that, alot of people invest their full ego in their postings, and therefore logical discussion is impossible, as they are just there to play word games.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Jesus Angelo, FRICKING SEMENTICS! Can he post? Hello ... NO. Why? Because he doesn't use his real god-damned name! Why? Because he doesn't want the TROLL"s following him home or to his JOB! Can he POST? NO! Funny, maybe I am too fracken' literal but I don't see a freaking LIE anywhere in there.

Decker

That I agree with. He can't post. I think we're arguing for nothing DOn. In the end I don't care what people do on other forums - it isn't my problem. As long as they don't act like assholes here.

No big deal.

Manxman, you do come across as argumentative, but I get it, so don't worry.

 

[Decker]

That I agree with. He can't post. I think we're arguing for nothing DOn. In the end I don't care what people do on other forums - it isn't my problem. As long as they don't act like assholes here.

Okay Angelo, once again ... perhaps Too Literal but ... No one has acted like an ass-hole. Why the caution?

Decker

 

[Dirk_Biddle]

For nearly two years I have argued the case for UFOs over at the JREF and I am interested to hear if others might have had – or know of - an experience that might be similar to my own concerning their tactics. I started a thread (among others) titled “UFOs: The Research, The Evidence” and I presented a number of cases to see how the JREF people would deal with them.

I basically received ridicule, denial and abuse in reply. The JREF seems merciless in this approach to anyone who might hold an opinion counter to their own. Over time I came to recognise it to be a deliberate tactic of theirs – they are deliberately rude, mocking and abusive with the intent to elicit an unwise response from the poster – and that then allows the JREF to ban the poster from further posting!

The list of tactics the JREF uses against anyone who might hold an opinion counter to their own (and they seem speak with one voice in a manner that is indistinguishable from a cult) is as long as your arm and is simply too long to list here - but the general thrust is that they will lie about, misrepresent and obfuscate both the evidence and one’s own statements. There is no sense in which they seem to want to get to the truth about a particular UFO case – it is all about the tactics of destroying the credibility of the poster and the evidence. The “truth” (whatever that may be) simply does not matter to them in the slightest – it is all about the tactics of destruction (and of course they argue openly that ridicule and mockery is a legitimate debating tactic…).

They also use the unfounded assertion to great effect. “You have been proved are a liar and a hypocrite” they will proclaim. Or they will state things like “This case has been proven to be a hoax” or “The evidence against your arguments have been put many times. Why do you ignore that evidence?” or “Why have you claimed that you have proof for ET when there is none?” or simply “You have claimed you believe in pink unicorns, so that shows how ridiculous your position is” - all of which of course are outright lies – but they care not – they simply want to get you on the back foot, defending against their unfounded assertions rather than discussing the substance of the case.

Of course the JREF desperately wanted me out of there – I was reasonable and logical and the evidence I was presenting was effective - but they had no legitimate reason to ban me outright, as I had never posted in a manner that broke the forum rules. Of course they eventually did find a way. They eventually used the excuse that I had not originally signed up under my own name. It was not that they could prove that the name I signed up with was not my real name – and it was not even that that the forum rules stated that one could not sign up under a pseudonym - merely that they thought it was possible that my sign in name was not my real name - and so they applied a permanent ban! I can no longer post in the JREF.

To highlight their underhandedness – the JREF has a thread which lists those who have been banned and for what reason – but true to their sneaky form – they have not listed me in that thread as being banned permanently from the JREF - so no-one in the JREF even knows what happened to me or why I am no longer posting. I have simply been “disappeared” - and of course that conjures images of the worst excesses of authoritarian regimes…

Anyway I wondered if anyone here had encountered the JREF and their tactics and might have an opinion about them?

I heard that they didn't protect your privacy - is there any truth to this?

 

[carlitos]

Here is a summary for Rramjet's convenience. I have censored the name in question, but it remains in the posts over at the JREF Forum. Which is why Rramjet might want to clear this up if he's really concerned.

To clear-up the status of Rramjet's account and explain why his account has been suspended (feel free to repost this anywhere you wish outside this Forum): Rramjet made complaints that some Members were breaking Rule 8 by revealing his real name in a thread in which he was participating. The problem arose when we looked into his complaint and realised that either he had lied when registering for his account here or he was lying about his real identity being revealed since the personal information did not match. To resolve this I sent him a PM on the 8th July:

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Quote: Hi Further to the discussion by the moderating Team: It appears that you believe that someone has figured out your real-life identity, and made references to it in their posts. If that is so and the information is a breach of Rule 8 then of course that would violate forum rules and we can edit or remove the offending post(s) and take further actions as necessary. But the post you reported only cites a name "[censored by carlito]" as the author of a relevant quote (it does not say that that's your identity), and we have no way of knowing if that name has any connection to you or not. So, in order to act on your complaint, we need accurate information. Are you saying that [censored by carlito] is your real name? If so then that is not the name you have registered under and providing your real name is a required condition for membership. Has there been an error somewhere? If you are now stating that [censored by carlito] is your real name then you and we will have to find some way in which you can verify this with us. Regards Darat

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Rramjet account was not suspended at that point as I was hoping the confusion could be speedily cleared-up. Just before I'd sent the PM a moderator looked into the information Rramjet had supplied at registration and it was apparent that Rramjet had not been honest when he joined the Forum (unfortunately I did not read that moderator's post until after I sent my PM). After Rramjet had been given ample time to respond to my PM and given we knew he had been online since the PM was sent (he made over 30 posts in that time period) his account was suspended on 10th August. Rramjet's account will remain suspended until the matter of his identity can be resolved, at the point I am typing this (30th August) his account has not been banned.

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[Angel of Ioren]

Okay Angelo, once again ... perhaps Too Literal but ... No one has acted like an ass-hole. Why the caution?

Decker

Sorry Don, that wasn't clear. No one is acting like an asshole.

 

[Dirk_Biddle_BBSC]

Sorry Don, that wasn't clear. No one is acting like an asshole.

apart from Dirk Biddle you mean

I heard that they didn't protect your privacy - is there any truth to this?

whut, why would anyone want to know Rramjets real name
:redface:

 

[mike]

Their house, their rules, if they want your real name as a condition of entry, then you either provide it or you dont, but if you dont you are refused entry, call it a ban or suspension makes no difference imo, a rose is a rose....
Having said that i think its a stupid stipulation, one can create a fictional "real name" and an email account to match and you wouldnt be able to prove it was a sockpuppet, so the mechanism they have used to ban/suspend/censor you is clearly a weak excuse to do so.
It imo reeks mightily of a complete lack of integrity on the sites behalf, its not uncommon though where a site exercises its ruleset selectively, allowing some members to breach the conditions of membership, while bringing the ban hammer down on others for the slightest of infractions.
In my experience recognising this sort of petty tyrany, and having nothing more to do with them is the best course of action.
Yes it smarts at first, no one likes having an obvious injustice perpetrated on them.
But one door closes, another opens, such is life

 

[Rramjet]

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My real name is Dirk Biddle. I have an honours degree in Behavioural Science (BBSc. Hons). Obviously the Paracast member posting in this forum under that pseudonym is a JREF troll - and then of course the dirty, underhand - and outright fraudulent - tactic now employed by the JREF to “out” me here, is then plain for all to see.

Thus they force my hand - and the only way I can counter such fraudulent activity is to reveal my true identity (which I have now done).

I don’t know what the rules are considering fraud are in the Paracast forums - but obviously a fraud is being perpetrated here and I can only hope that action will now be taken in this regard.

As for me being a liar - the simple fact is that I have been banned from posting in the JREF. The reason the JREF uses to justify that ban is that I did not use my real name when I signed up in the JREF forum. And that is what I have claimed since the beginning. Nothing more, nothing less. (and of course as mike has just pointed out, it seems to be a highly selective ban…)

Of course the JREF is now “spinning” it hard to make out it is all somehow my fault. The PM Darat sent to me (and one has to wonder what gives Darat the right to publicly re-post a PRIVATE MESSAGE*…) contained no indication that if I did not supply my real name then I would have my account “administratively suspended”. All I did was to ask them if they could uphold their own privacy statement in regard to people attempting to use my real name in the public forum. The PM that Darat sent me was disingenuous in the extreme – a carefully laid trap - set in order that they could justify banning me.

(*which also goes to show that the JREF privacy policy is a complete sham!)

Think about this for a minute – there was no way I could have responded to that PM without a ban resulting. If I had revealed my true name, then that would have meant a ban according to the rule that I WAS banned under, because it would have demonstrated that I had signed up using a pseudonym (yet they instituted the ban anyway - even though they disingenuously purported to claim they did not know my real name – when of course they did know it…).

If however I had stated that Dirk Biddle was not my real name – then they would have had me for lying about THAT (because in fact they DID know my real name) - and if that alone did not result in a ban - then I have no doubt it would have resulted in me being charged with publicly making false claims about their inability to protect people’s privacy according to their own privacy statement – and I have no doubt THAT would have then resulted in a ban.

There was simply no way I could have replied to that PM without getting banned.

But who cares? I am certainly not going to go back to that place. In my opinion it is a downright evil place and the events and people from the JREF that have now followed me to THIS forum clearly demonstrates the type of dirty, underhand tactics the JREF indulges itself in.

It seems they will stop at nothing to destroy my reputation and my fears about revealing my identity have clearly been demonstrated to be well founded. And the reason they must destroy my reputation is the UFO thread (where I presented the research and the evidence in a clear, concise, logical and well researched way) and that thread obviously got some people thinking - perhaps even began to sway some opinions of the JREf’s own members to consider that to write of UFOs as merely misidentified mundane objects or psychological manifestations was completely unwarranted. And they (the JREF) simply could - and obviously cannot - abide that!

Of course all this speaks to another JREF dirty tactic – that of playing the man rather than addressing the substance of the debate. They are the masters in this tactic – in my opinion they sociopathically think nothing of potentially destroying a life, so long as they can maintain their own cultist belief system.

I did nothing TO them. I never lied to them, I never abused them, I merely presented the research and evidence surrounding UFOs in a calm, considered and straightforward manner – yet look what I am receiving in return for that… who in their right mind would seriously consider their tactics to be legitimate? Especially for an organisation that pretends to some noble goal of public educational outreach. Ask yourself if their tactics (on display in this thread alone) befit an organisation with such lofty goals? If the JREF can carry on - as it is amply demonstrated that they do - who in their right mind - knowing the tactics the JREF employs against their opponents - would actually then employ such an organisation to educate them – or their organisation, their employees, or speak at conferences, or give seminars to teaching institutions… No, the JREF needs to be outed for what it is – a cultist, pseudoscientific organisation who will stop at nothing to destroy anyone who holds an opinion counter to their own and can effectively express that opinion in public.

Perhaps I am a lone voice in all this. I hope I am not. But whatever the reality on that score is, what I do know is that at the very least a fraud is currently being perpetrated by the JREF in this place (in the fraudulent use of my real name to post), and that alone should give people pause for thought as to what lengths they will go to and what tactics they will employ.

Rr.

 

[Dirk_Biddle_BBSC]

Just for clarity here is the post that started this off

I think you'll find thats your job. Everyone else is quite happy to believe that ufos aren't alien spaceships, so theres nothing for anyone to debunk yet as we're still waiting for the evidence of their existence
Ramjet, why do you call them UFO debunkers, surely as UFOs are by their nature unidentified theres nothing to debunk, or didn't you get your head round that null hypothesis yet ?

anyway, Dirk Biddle (famous ufology idiot) states in one of his papers

A UFO is an Unidentified Flying Object which has been identified as a
possible or actual alien spacecraft.

and he should know, he's qualified to talk on ufology because he has a BBSC

Spoiler

Bachelor of Building Science

roflmfao
so unless you're saying that we're here to debunk flocks of birds, blimps and the planet venus, then its you whos really the debunker isn't it, as you yourself have said many times, a UFO is unidentified, youre trying to identify it as you are the claimant, so that makes you the debunker

now as you can see, this in no way tells anyone what Rramjets real name is and the Biddle name was actually referenced by the poster Marduk as a published ufologist who's opinion is the polar opposite of what Rramjet was saying, which if anything should show you what a hippocrite the man is. Marduk didn't know that Biddle and Rramjet are the same person, I asked him, he didn't have a clue

yet he started this thread to complain about it.

Recently some identifying information was divulged about me in one of the threads, but despite appeals to the moderators, they have (so far) not acted to remove that information in order to protect my privacy. The JREF privacy policy states that they will "strive" to protect the privacy of members, but clearly that policy is not being acted on.
So I give this warning - If members of the JREF find out any personal information about you - JREF will do nothing to protect your privacy and will allow that information to be published on their own site.
Potential and current members then BEWARE. You privacy will not be respected or protected by JREF - even if you put in a specific request that they do so.

as you can see Rramjet lied about the previous post which set him off, it didn't tell anyone his real name until he complained that it did, because he posted it so soon after Marduks post it wasn't rocket science for anyone who wished to know what exactly he was complaining about by searching through the previous few posts in the only thread Rramjet was posting in, effectively, because of his knee jerk reaction to an innocent post he told everyone what his real name was, I hope this puts in some perspective his paranoid whining about trying to keep his identity secret for fears of his family when it was Rramjet and Rramjet alone who started this off and got himself suspended

when the mods asked him to verify his real name, only to see if he had a legitimate complaint he refused to answer the message, which clearly breached the JREF signing up policy as the name he registered with was not Dirk Biddle, so he has been suspended until he tells the truth about his identity. he knows he is only suspended so every time he's said he was banned to you guys here he was deliberately lying to gain your sympathy. This isn't the first time Rramjet lied, he's been doing it at the JREF ever since he first signed up, if you like I could furnish you a list, but it would be exhaustive and probably run to several pages

Basically Rramjet is a habitual liar, you don't believe that, thats fine, but you will certainly find out.

personally we all think Rramjet has been trying to get banned for quite some time as his ability at rational discussion being severely limited has left him humiliated time and time again. So, when he got suspended he rushed over here to claim he was banned, because thats what he does, he lies to gain attention because he's a believer and refuses to look at or acknowledge any evidence contrary to his beliefs
now he's got your attention and seems to be starting a conspiracy theory over here based on falsehood (he got busted conspiring with another ufonut at the jref before, attempting to fabricate some evidence which couldn't be debunked/but he didn't realise that what he thought was a private message he had actually posted as a public visitor message on his conspirators profile page), when someone posted about it he went immediately into "I have been set up by the JREF" mode, when really, his own idiocy busted him and he's here right now for the same reason

Just for the record, the people Rramjet has been arguing with for the last two years are all private individuals from diverse backgrounds, none of them are particularly associated with the JREF beyond having signed up at the forum honestly using their real names, something Rramjet has yet to manage

good luck with Mr Biddle
you're going to need it

if anyones interested in the real truth of the matter this thread was started by a concerned member after it became apparent that Dirk was telling people he had been banned
Has Ramjet been banned ?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=217919
and this is the original thread where Rramjet outed himself and got suspended
Warning to all members: JREF will not protect your privacy
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=216250

I challenge anyone here to read through these two threads and then tell me Rramjet is being honest about any of this

 

[mike]

You are asking me to believe that marduk, didnt know that the name he quoted wasnt Rramjets ?
That it was pure co-incidence ?
The fact that you asked him is indicative of the stretch in that idea.
Of course he would claim he didnt know, if he admitted it, he admits breaching the terms and conditions of the site
Then you end with

none of them are particularly associated with the JREF beyond having signed up at the forum honestly using their real names, something Rramjet has yet to manage

Having signed up here with a name not your own, and while thats not against the rules here as far as i can tell, the hypocrisy is rank.

You criticise and justify his banning for not giving his real name, while using a sockpuppet yourself

Do as i say, but not as i do eh ?

And the links you posted cannot be read, unless i give the site my real name................
Hilarious

 

[Dirk_Biddle_BBSC]

Even if Marduk was lying about knowing Rramjet was biddle he still didn't identify Rramjet as such, so didn't break any rule
and this forum doesn't have a rule where people have to identify themselves, so I'm not breaking any rules here, in fact I am sticking to the rules at both sites, so how is that hypocrisy, you mean you'd like it to be because you can't accept the actual truth, that youve been nodding along with someone who has lied to you

as for being a sockpuppet myself, I'm, sorry I dont see it, isn't a sockpuppet supposed to be created for a deceptive purpose
everything I have said here is true and youve been given the ability to go check the veracity of that yourself, if you can be bothered of course
as for trying to justify his banning, I have done no such thing, he isn't banned, so that would be difficult eh

 

[mike]

Duh, thats what i said, that doesnt however negate the spirit of hypocrisy with which you are so obviously operating from.
Your use of that handle imo is designed to deliberately cause grief

You must not post, attach or link to any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, offensive, abusive, threatening, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, racist, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International laws and regulations

I put it to you that the use of his name, is both harrasing and invasive of a persons privacy...............

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

as for trying to justify his banning, I have done no such thing, he isn't banned, so that would be difficult eh

As Don said "can he post ? NO" Thats a Ban in my book, hes banned from posting, he has no right of reply has been censored, and on the flimsiest of excuses.
A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet, if calling it another name ie suspension helps you to justify it, good for you. but it still stinks of a ban

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term—a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock—originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an internet community who spoke to, or about, himself while pretending to be another person.[SUP][1][/SUP] The term now includes other uses of misleading online identities, as for instance "creating a fake online identity to praise, defend, or create the illusion of support for one's self, allies or company

Is your name Dirk Biddle ? if not its a false identity, ie a sock.
Youve created a fake online identity to defend your allies, and considering youve used a real persons name and qualifications to create this false identity, and imo its bordering on defamation to do so

LIBEL AND SLANDER occur when a person or entity communicates false information that damages the reputation of another person or entity

 

[Rramjet]

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Okay – this is suddenly more ridiculous and more serious than even I could have imagined - and it provides yet more evidence that the JREF will stop at nothing and go to extraordinary - and even fraudulent lengths - to get its own way….

…and add that now you, RoboT (for who else could it be…*), come into this forum with the express intent of committing a fraud by posting under MY real name – and you still have the sociopathic temerity to accuse ME of lying? All I will state in that regard is that my record of posting in the JREF, for anyone who cares to take the time to actually look, speaks for itself.

You also make whole bunch of unfounded accusations against me as if you believe that the mere statement of those unfounded assertion will somehow magically make those assertions true. But of course you don’t believe that at all do you – it is merely another dirty, underhand tactic. We all know what your grubby purpose is here – and we all know (especially now) what dirty tactics you and the JREF will employ in a vain attempt to destroy my reputation. It is oh so very easy for YOU to sit back, hypocritically hiding behind YOUR anonymity, to selectively quote and make false and misleading statements about me in an attempt to obfuscate the record of what actually transpired in an attempt to destroy my reputation. So be a man and reveal to us YOUR identity instead of committing the snivelling, cowardly fraud you are now perpetrating.

It is not without some some irony I suppose that I should actually feel flattered that the JREF thinks my opinions (are and were) important enough that they would pursue me into this forum to make a public spectacle of it all.

If the JREF was actually thinking hard about it, they would have just let it be, this thread would have run its course, I would have moved on to begin another thread, this thread would have been consigned to a little known history and all the fuss would have been about nothing really… yet the JREF have chosen to pursue me here and to make it a much bigger issue than it would otherwise have been… and to what end? To demonstrate that my claims about the JREF's tactics are actually true? That cannot be good for them surely… LOL.

*You posted the following in the JREF concerning posts in this Paracast thread:

Dirk_Biddle, Dirk_Biddle_BBSC, and Rramjet all post there. How many socks do they allow on that forum?

Who else would have known...? And who else would have so blatently misrepresented it? Only you, mein stallker, only you...

 

[Dirk_Biddle_BBSC]

Duh, thats what i said, that doesnt however negate the spirit of hypocrisy with which you are so obviously operating from.
Your use of that handle imo is designed to deliberately cause grief



I put it to you that the use of his name, is both harrasing and invasive of a persons privacy...............

---------- Post added at 02:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------



As Don said "can he post ? NO" Thats a Ban in my book, hes banned from posting, he has no right of reply has been censored, and on the flimsiest of excuses.
A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet, if calling it another name ie suspension helps you to justify it, good for you. but it still stinks of a ban

I see you still haven't bothered to read the links I posted, if you had, you'd know that all Rramjet has to do is tell the mod team his real name so they can amend his registration details and lift his suspension. As for my choice of name being against the rules here, I probably agree, so why don't you have me banned, that way you can bask in sunshine knowing that I got banned here after telling the truth, while Rramjet got suspended at the JREF for lying.
because, that would be a great advert for this forum wouldn't it
:redface:

 

[Ron Collins]

I honestly don't care if Ramjet was banned there. He isn't banned here. So how about we get to something with substance. Lets see something that Ramjet has researched and would like to present to the forum for discussion. IF he is full of shit, the forum members here are pretty good at ferreting that out. On the other hand, if the biggest mark against him is that he doesn't want to use his real name... so be it. That may or may not color the response from our forum members. It just depends on the subject matter, claims, and evidence. But, I think we have beat the "He was/wasn't banned" horse to death here.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

What the hell is going on here?
This is the Paracast forum and we don't really care about the drama that has gone on in the JREF forum, okay?

If you guys want to discuss UFOs in this forum, by all means, do it. Open up a thread about it or add to another. As for your arguments about who got banned and how or whatever, it's not really important to the Paracast forum. This stupidity even and Don and I arguing over silly semantics (sorry about that Don).

This thread is closed.