"The Roswell Dream Team Nightmare"

[Randall]

I'll post what I just sent you:
I think the whole thing has intelligent design written all over it. Zamora was drawn to the area by a young speeding driver, the pyrotechnics went off over the balloon to divert him, the road he had to drive down and hill separating the road from his view of the balloon is key. That hill provided them some cover to get ready for the balloon launch. They likely could hear him pull up and let off the second round of pyrotechnics to scare the hell out of him and escape in the other direction as the balloon flew away. It's brilliant in its' simplicity. The guys who did it, at least three, were and are brilliant, brilliant men.

You appear to have missed my follow up post here. BTW thanks for the links you posted after that.

So you're suggesting that somehow the hoaxers attached pyrotechnics to a balloon that looked like a car sized shiny white aluminum "O". Then used the pyrotechnical/balloon display as a diversion to escape, leaving no tracks away from the scene, while the pyrotechnics burned out, leaving no residue and the balloon to suddenly zoom off against the wind. You are sticking to this rather specious theory despite the logical flaws and the conclusion of skilled follow-up investigators who at the time ruled out a hoax, but did conclude that such technology was within our capability and that prototypes that worked on similar principles to those observed were under construction. I'll grant that there isn't enough evidence to conclude that the craft was alien, but the hoax theory also has significant holes. That leaves some sort of exotic terrestrial craft as the most reasonable explanation.

Could it still have been a hoax? Yes. Could it still have been something alien? Yes. But investing one's self in either theory suggests a lack of objectivity.

BTW. Has anyone ever considered a natural explanation like some sort of bizarre dry lightning phenomenon coupled with psychological effects caused by an associated geological EM discharge? That's far out, but it offers an explanation for the roar ( thunder ), the fused sand ( fulgurite ), the lack of any residue, and even the ovoid shape of the object ( possibly some sort of ball lightning ), that then zoomed off at high speed. To me, as way out there as it seems, it seems just as plausible as a hoax or aliens. Just some food for thought.

 

[Frank Stalter]

You appear to have missed my follow up post here. BTW thanks for the links you posted after that.

So you're suggesting that somehow the hoaxers attached pyrotechnics to a balloon that looked like a car sized shiny white aluminum "O". Then used the pyrotechnical/balloon display as a diversion to escape, leaving no tracks away from the scene, while the pyrotechnics burned out, leaving no residue and the balloon to suddenly zoom off against the wind. You are sticking to this rather specious theory despite the logical flaws and the conclusion of skilled follow-up investigators who at the time ruled out a hoax, but did conclude that such technology was within our capability and that prototypes that worked on similar principles to those observed were under construction. I'll grant that there isn't enough evidence to conclude that the craft was alien, but the hoax theory also has significant holes. That leaves some sort of exotic terrestrial craft as the most reasonable explanation.

Attached TO the balloon? No, I'm not suggesting that. There was no conclusion by the investigators. They categorized it as unexplained. Hynek outlined his problems with the hoax theory to Menzel, and I do think it betrays a little arrogance, "I'm smart so i can't be fooled," on his part. I do find it a little baffling that he was so dismissive of hoax, but that's 20/20 hindsight on my part. I didn't buy it at first either. Tony's follow up got my attention but it wasn't until I read Zamora's actual report that I became convinced.

Could it still have been a hoax? Yes. Could it still have been something alien? Yes. But investing one's self in either theory suggests a lack of objectivity.BTW. Has anyone ever considered a natural explanation like some sort of bizarre dry lightning phenomenon coupled with psychological effects caused by an associated geological EM discharge? That's far out, but it offers an explanation for the roar ( thunder ), the fused sand ( fulgurite ), the lack of any residue, and even the ovoid shape of the object ( possibly some sort of ball lightning ), that then zoomed off at high speed. To me, as way out there as it seems, it seems just as plausible as a hoax or aliens. Just some food for thought.

A natural phenomenon, a dust devil, was tossed out by Menzel at one point. I think he was just spitballing there. Remember, the school the hoaxers attended was a mining and technology school. They had all day to seed the site. I'm proud of my role in investigating this case, I make no bones about it.

 

[Randall]

Attached TO the balloon? No, I'm not suggesting that.

Well, considering that the observation of the flames by Zamora indicated that they appeared to be coming out of the craft, if the craft was a balloon, then the logical assumption is that the pyrotechnics must have been attached to the balloon and were firing downward. There is no indication that anything went shooting up into the sky beyond the object, and there were no traces of residue associated with a pyrotechnical display.

There was no conclusion by the investigators.

I don't mean a consensus conclusion by everyone involved ( though there does appear to have been a general consensus that it wasn't a hoax ) I was referring to comments like:

• Hynek: It is Quintanilla's and my opinion that both Chaves and FBI agent Byrnes must have been in on the hoax if we adopt the hoax hypothesis. They testified that there were no tracks in the immediate neighborhood and so that the hoaxters must themselves have arrived and left by balloon! Had it been a hoax, certainly some paraphernalia should have been left around if the pranksters beat a hasty retreat These gentlemen said that nothing of the sort was found.
• Hynek: The wind was blowing strongly from the south, yet the object was reported to have gone on directly west. This would hardly fit a balloon.
• Hynek: Furthermore, I doubt very much whether a hoax could have been kept secret this long.
• Hynek: It seems much more likely to me that he saw a strange test craft which is super secret.

Hynek outlined his problems with the hoax theory to Menzel, and I do think it betrays a little arrogance, "I'm smart so i can't be fooled," on his part. I do find it a little baffling that he was so dismissive of hoax, but that's 20/20 hindsight on my part. I didn't buy it at first either. Tony's follow up got my attention but it wasn't until I read Zamora's actual report that I became convinced.

Actually, Hynek was pretty smart ( a trained scientist ), and he investigated the site in person, and if anything, his arrogance had in the past being biased against alien visitation. Plus those who knew him seemed to be of the opinion that he was actually a pretty nice guy ( on top of being smart ). So I don't think that simply dismissing Hynek's evaluation is justified. Besides, Hynek could have been the most arrogant person in the world, but how would that change the direction other people reported that the wind was blowing?

A natural phenomenon, a dust devil, was tossed out by Menzel at one point. I think he was just spitballing there. Remember, the school the hoaxers attended was a mining and technology school. They had all day to seed the site. I'm proud of my role in investigating this case, I make no bones about it.

There's nothing wrong with having pride in the work you do on things you're interested in, and there's no loss of pride if it turns out that the work you have done needs some updating or reconsideration. The analysis we all contribute adds to a picture larger than any single one, and simply participating in a genuine and constructive way is worthy of praise. In fact you can have more pride in knowing that you retain the ability to adapt your position to better fit the evidence. Because of your efforts here, I've taken the time to seriously reconsider the possibility of a hoax, and I've learned a few new things along the way. I'm happy to thank you for being a motivating force in that. The field needs people who aren't simply blind believers.

 

[Frank Stalter]

Well, considering that the observation of the flames by Zamora indicated that they appeared to be coming out of the craft, if the craft was a balloon, then the logical assumption is that the pyrotechnics must have been attached to the balloon and were firing downward. There is no indication that anything went shooting up into the sky beyond the object, and there were no traces of residue associated with a pyrotechnical display.

That's just it, you're making an assumption and Zamora never says the 2nd flame and roar was vehicle exhaust.

He also said the vehicle had only two legs. How do you explain that?

How do you explain the 1st flame? What was its' purpose?

How do you explain the craft and crew's rapid departure? Why would they care if Zamora saw them or not? If they did care, why land where they did in the first place?

I don't mean a consensus conclusion by everyone involved ( though there does appear to have been a general consensus that it wasn't a hoax ) I was referring to comments like:

• Hynek: It is Quintanilla's and my opinion that both Chaves and FBI agent Byrnes must have been in on the hoax if we adopt the hoax hypothesis. They testified that there were no tracks in the immediate neighborhood and so that the hoaxters must themselves have arrived and left by balloon! Had it been a hoax, certainly some paraphernalia should have been left around if the pranksters beat a hasty retreat These gentlemen said that nothing of the sort was found.
• Hynek: The wind was blowing strongly from the south, yet the object was reported to have gone on directly west. This would hardly fit a balloon.
• Hynek: Furthermore, I doubt very much whether a hoax could have been kept secret this long.
• Hynek: It seems much more likely to me that he saw a strange test craft which is super secret.

Actually, Hynek was pretty smart ( a trained scientist ), and he investigated the site in person, and if anything, his arrogance had in the past being biased against alien visitation. Plus those who knew him seemed to be of the opinion that he was actually a pretty nice guy ( on top of being smart ). So I don't think that simply dismissing Hynek's evaluation is justified. Besides, Hynek could have been the most arrogant person in the world, but how would that change the direction other people reported that the wind was blowing?

I never said Hynek wasn't a nice guy, just that he made an arrogant mistake in generalizing hoaxers in relation to this case. He also didn't have the benefit of knowing the contents of the Pauling/Colgate letter. He also said:

Pranksters could have hidden behind the knoll directly to the south, particularly had they lain prone.

There's nothing wrong with having pride in the work you do on things you're interested in, and there's no loss of pride if it turns out that the work you have done needs some updating or reconsideration. The analysis we all contribute adds to a picture larger than any single one, and simply participating in a genuine and constructive way is worthy of praise. In fact you can have more pride in knowing that you retain the ability to adapt your position to better fit the evidence. Because of your efforts here, I've taken the time to seriously reconsider the possibility of a hoax, and I've learned a few new things along the way. I'm happy to thank you for being a motivating force in that. The field needs people who aren't simply blind believers.

I'd love to know the full details of how the prank was pulled off. I suggested to Tony privately that I didn't care who pulled the prank off, but would love to know how it was done and I do know he took this approach in his follow up with Colgate who did provide the extra detail that it was a balloon.

The Bragalia Files: THE ULTIMATE SECRET OF SOCORRO FINALLY TOLD: NEW DETAILS ON WORLD-FAMOUS 1964 UFO HOAX

In the August 8th email from Stirling Colgate, he opened up even a bit further about how the students had hoaxed Lonnie. I had of course always wanted to know from him just exactly how the deed was done. How did the students do it?
I stated to Colgate that he must know how they did it- and directly asked of him:
“How did they do it? What was the craft made of?”
His short but telling reply:
“A candle in a balloon. Not sophisticated.”
I also asked of Stirling how many were “in on the hoax?” Again, a short reply received:
“I’d say about 3-6”

 

[Randall]

That's just it, you're making an assumption ...

It's true that there have been a fair number of assumptions made around this case, some more reasonable than others. I think the biggest mistake regarding assumptions is to claim any hypothesis is certain. The only thing that seems reasonably certain to me is that some sort of craft was seen that was more like our own technology than something alien. So whether that craft was a hoaxed balloon that could fly against the wind, or a secret VTOL prototype makes no difference to what I'm interested in, which is alien visitation. Although we can't rule that out either, the evidence in the Socorro Landing Case is not sufficient to include the craft in that category.

In some respects this reminds me of the Kelly Johnson Point Mugu sighting I debated the JREF people and Lance with. The skeptics were pro lenticular cloud. I figured some kind of winged aircraft was more likely. Either way it wasn't an alien craft, so the skeptics win. Yet for some reason that's still not good enough for some skeptics. It's as if they not only have to show that the object in a report isn't alien, but that whatever a UFO proponent thinks it is, they have to be proven wrong about that too, despite any evidence to the contrary. It's quite curious really.

 

[Frank Stalter]

It's true that there have been a fair number of assumptions made around this case, some more reasonable than others. I think the biggest mistake regarding assumptions is to claim any hypothesis is certain. The only thing that seems reasonably certain to me is that some sort of craft was seen that was more like our own technology than something alien. So whether that craft was a hoaxed balloon that could fly against the wind, or a secret VTOL prototype makes no difference to what I'm interested in, which is alien visitation. Although we can't rule that out either, the evidence in the Socorro Landing Case is not sufficient to include the craft in that category.

In some respects this reminds me of the Kelly Johnson Point Mugu sighting I debated the JREF people and Lance with. The skeptics were pro lenticular cloud. I figured some kind of winged aircraft was more likely. Either way it wasn't an alien craft, so the skeptics win. Yet for some reason that's still not good enough for some skeptics. It's as if they not only have to show that the object in a report isn't alien, but that whatever a UFO proponent thinks it is, they have to be proven wrong about that too, despite any evidence to the contrary. It's quite curious really.

I agree with the bolded. The Kelly Johnson case is a really good one.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Maybe a it could of been both and thirdly a smoke screen due to new technology being tracked by out side forces and diversionary tactic to keep third parties away from the real location?

 

[trainedobserver]

These slides, if they do exist, would be evidence of absolutely nothing whatsoever. They certainly would not be proof of alien visitation by any stretch of the imagination. I get the feeling this is just another attempt to keep the Roswell franchise alive with a new gimmick. At some point in the future someone will 3D print an alien hand, head, or foot using organic material and claim they found it in great-great-great-grandpaw's deep freeze. Then we'll have Roswell alien body parts to go with the "material" and photos.

 

[Randall]

These slides, if they do exist, would be evidence of absolutely nothing whatsoever. They certainly would not be proof of alien visitation by any stretch of the imagination. I get the feeling this is just another attempt to keep the Roswell franchise alive with a new gimmick. At some point in the future someone will 3D print an alien hand, head, or foot using organic material and claim they found it in great-great-great-grandpaw's deep freeze. Then we'll have Roswell alien body parts to go with the "material" and photos.

Your somewhat jaded cynicism is perfectly understandable. For a long time I considered the Roswell incident to be a "smoking gun" in favor of alien visitation. Perhaps there is still something to it, but I've grown increasingly skeptical, mostly because the vast majority of the evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, doesn't include a description of a flying craft that was performing maneuvers beyond the technology of the day. 99% of the story revolves around debris. It's presumed to have been something alien by advocates of the saucer crash theory, but that's based less on the actual debris and more on increasingly dubious claims of a second crash site. There seems to be little question that something happened, but this is unlike other cases where military pilots have seen and attempted to intercept an object that has been tracked on radar. In those cases there's less doubt about what they were dealing with. Add to the problem all the fakery and exploitation, and it gets tiresome for those of us who have been following the story for many years.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Your somewhat jaded cynicism is perfectly understandable. For a long time I considered the Roswell incident to be a "smoking gun" in favor of alien visitation. Perhaps there is still something to it, but I've grown increasingly skeptical, mostly because the vast majority of the evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, doesn't include a description of a flying craft that was performing maneuvers beyond the technology of the day. 99% of the story revolves around debris. It's presumed to have been something alien by advocates of the saucer crash theory, but that's based less on the actual debris and more on increasingly tenuous connections to the known debris field. There seems to be little question that something happened, but this is unlike other cases where military pilots have seen and attempted to intercept an object that has been tracked on radar. In those cases there's less doubt about what they were dealing with. Add to the problems all the fakery and exploitation, and it gets tiresome for those of us who have been following the story for many years.

I think the most amazing thing concerning UFOs is that where as IMO they ARE definitely representative of a technology outside the scope of what humanity is currently capable of having already achieved, we have absolutely NOTHING. Whether their technology is extremely advanced, developed outside the human scientific paradigm entirely, or representative of the most cutting edge science currently experimented with by human beings on planet earth, it would ALL seem vulnerable to some type of failure.

Then there is the fact that when UFO occupants are observed, either they are at a considerable distance, or the person undergoing the experience is either a) in some kind of out of body event (dream state?), or b) is undergoing what some have termed the Oz effect wherein their consciousness awareness itself is possibly undergoing the assimilation of the experience itself. (dream state?)

Everything I just stated makes me think of UFOs as an intentional deception. This deception either being of our own doing via an aspect of our imagination that science as of yet does not know about, or an external force has been meddling here without the slightest determination as to a real intention or mission since the beginning of recorded history.

But why? Why so often in plain sight, with absolutely zero public communications, without any known tangibility or verification whatsoever? If not to deceive or manipulate us, why? Do these guys think they have a license to mess with our heads in a most spectacular way?

Sentient Evolution?
Demons that get a kick out extracting as much negative energy from us as is possible?
Aliens doing a mega prep for an invasion? (25,000 years of recorded history minimum, I hardly think so)
The exploration of human consciousness as medium through which to navigate?

 

[Randall]

I think the most amazing thing concerning UFOs is that where as IMO they ARE definitely representative of a technology outside the scope of what humanity is currently capable of having already achieved, we have absolutely NOTHING.

Or at least we civilians have no verifiable material scientifically valid evidence. We do however have plenty of personal experiences, and I place value in them.

Whether their technology is extremely advanced, developed outside the human scientific paradigm entirely, or representative of the most cutting edge science currently experimented with by human beings on planet earth, it would ALL seem vulnerable to some type of failure.

That's a reasonable assumption.

Then there is the fact that when UFO occupants are observed, either they are at a considerable distance, or the person undergoing the experience is either a) in some kind of out of body event (dream state?), or b) is undergoing what some have termed the Oz effect wherein their consciousness awareness itself is possibly undergoing the assimilation of the experience itself. (dream state?)
Everything I just stated makes me think of UFOs as an intentional deception. This deception either being of our own doing via an aspect of our imagination that science as of yet does not know about, or an external force has been meddling here without the slightest determination as to a real intention or mission since the beginning of recorded history.
But why? Why so often in plain sight, with absolutely zero public communications, without any known tangibility or verification whatsoever? If not to deceive or manipulate us, why? Do these guys think they have a license to mess with our heads in a most spectacular way?
Sentient Evolution?
Demons that get a kick out extracting as much negative energy from us as is possible?
Aliens doing a mega prep for an invasion? (25,000 years of recorded history minimum, I hardly think so)

Although I am a believer in UFOs ( alien craft ), and it makes sense that if alien craft are real, then they must have been engineered and built by aliens, I'm more reserved about the idea that the aliens have actually come here along with them.

The exploration of human consciousness as medium through which to navigate?

I think we left off on that idea at the point where we were still determining what human consciousness is, and we were onto some sort of "field" idea, but you still haven't identified what you believe is the best explanation for the source of that field. I've proposed that it's produced by a normally functioning sufficiently complex brain/body system during its waking state. How could aliens "navigate" such a field?

 

[Jeff Davis]

Or at least we civilians have no verifiable material scientifically valid evidence. We do however have plenty of personal experiences, and I place value in them.

That's a reasonable assumption.

Although I am a believer in UFOs ( alien craft ), and it makes sense that if alien craft are real, then they must have been engineered and built by aliens, I'm more reserved about the idea that the aliens have actually come here along with them.

I think we left off on that idea at the point where we were still determining what human consciousness is, and we were onto some sort of "field" idea, but you still haven't identified what you believe is the best explanation for the source of that field. I've proposed that it's produced by a normally functioning sufficiently complex brain/body system during its waking state. How could aliens "navigate" such a field?

When we think of consciousness as being encapsulated within the physical body. The brain being it's source, it would require the primitive notion of what is possession. I don't buy that for a second. The truth is that human beings are amazing physically biological organisms. I believe that humanity derive sentience from its source which is the field of consciousness. When we breath in air, it supplicates our physical needs, and then we exhale. Consciousness is no different apart from being continuous. When we die, we merely stop being of point of reference within this field of self determination. That's it.

I do believe that human beings run on energy, and since energy can neither be created, nor destroy itself, I assume that consciousness has always been, and always will be. The physicality we exhibit is obviously not infinite, whereas it is.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Or at least we civilians have no verifiable material scientifically valid evidence. We do however have plenty of personal experiences, and I place value in them.

That's a reasonable assumption.

Although I am a believer in UFOs ( alien craft ), and it makes sense that if alien craft are real, then they must have been engineered and built by aliens, I'm more reserved about the idea that the aliens have actually come here along with them.

I think we left off on that idea at the point where we were still determining what human consciousness is, and we were onto some sort of "field" idea, but you still haven't identified what you believe is the best explanation for the source of that field. I've proposed that it's produced by a normally functioning sufficiently complex brain/body system during its waking state. How could aliens "navigate" such a field?

I am so sorry Sir. I posted "out of place", and also did not reply so that you were alerted to the post I made. Natural and "Fortean Natural" | Page 5 | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[DaveM]

I am in the faction who is sick and tired of hearing the word 'Roswell' being spoken. It is now sixty six years later. Do you truthfully believe this business will ever be resolved? Of course not. Maybe when this current crop of commentators die off, we can have some peace and quiet about the subject.

 

[Randall]

I am in the faction who is sick and tired of hearing the word 'Roswell' being spoken. It is now sixty six years later. Do you truthfully believe this business will ever be resolved? Of course not. Maybe when this current crop of commentators die off, we can have some peace and quiet about the subject.

Or, maybe massive oversaturation that goes beyond mere desensitization resulting in psychological denial is all part of the plan. After all is, "I've heard it so much I can't stand it anymore!" really a valid reason to assume nothing happened? Isn't, "I don't care if anything happened. I just don't want to hear about Roswell anymore." exactly what they'd want? How about if people's heads just exploded whenever they said the word Roswell?

 

[DaveM]

Or, maybe massive oversaturation that goes beyond mere desensitization resulting in psychological denial is all part of the plan. After all is, "I've heard it so much I can't stand it anymore!" really a valid reason to assume nothing happened? Isn't, "I don't care if anything happened. I just don't want to hear about Roswell anymore." exactly what they'd want? How about if people's heads just exploded whenever they said the word Roswell?

As I stated, It has been sixty six years since Roswell. Show me the dead bodies or a space craft. Everything else is just blowing smoke at this time.

 

[Lou_Sheehan]

FYI, yesterday Tom Carey said on Future Theater that at this point he has a 90% confidence that the two photos are legit.
Hard to believe that high percentage, but that's what he said. If I understood correctly, they have been sent somewhere for a second photo analysis.

 

[Rizla]

As I stated, It has been sixty six years since Roswell. Show me the dead bodies or a space craft. Everything else is just blowing smoke at this time.

Dave, what a brilliant thing to say. I'm of the same mind about this crap. Show us some shred of real evidence, or shut up.

Or maybe... Kevin Randle could become the ultimate Roswell BS-revealer, or something... Could the Socorro thread above possibly be split? Enough to talk about here w/o Socorro, thanks...?

The Dream Team is Dead. Long Live the Dream Team. Mr. Randle, please feel free to tell the truth -- you're better at it than anyone gives you credit for.

 

[Rizla]

FYI, yesterday Tom Carey said on Future Theater that at this point he has a 90% confidence that the two photos are legit.

Mr. Sheehan, that, if anything, makes Mr. Carey look like a real arseloch... I mean, come on... show us the damned photos. Is this crap gonna make history, or are we in for another Ray Santilli-a-thon to make some jerk a wad of cash? It should be really, really simple... and this is the Internet age, man, photo analysis schmoto analysis... anyone on-line would do it for free. Alien bodies? Come on, it's a big claim! And so what if I'm drunk, and I still want something resembling "legitimacy" -- I ain't getting it... Late Night, Rizla out...

 

[Lou_Sheehan]

I can't defend it. Just passed along what he said.