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Tea party holding the US as hostage ?

Government shutdown after midnight ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • No

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 11.1%

  • Total voters
    9

Tyger

Paranormal Adept
Just heard that a Republican congressman has indicated - sorry for lack of details, heard it as I was walking through the television room and no details forthcoming from those there in non-listening mode :rolleyes: - in no uncertain terms, that the 'endgame is the defunding of Obamacare' and that the government will stay shut-down until Obama does just that. The defunding of Obamacare is the negotiating term. Nothing else to be negotiated.

LINK: Democrats Plan to Use the GOP's Own Bill Against Them to End Government Shutdown

"Dems have hit on a way to use a 'discharge petition', which forces a House vote if a majority of Representatives signs it, to try to force the issue. Previously, it was thought this could not work, because a discharge petition takes 30 legislative days to ripen, so if this were tried with the clean CR that passed the Senate, this couldn’t bear fruit until some time in November.

"That bill Representatives Chris Van Hollen and George Miller will reportedly use (The Government Shutdown Prevention Act) happens to be a Republican bill, so that’s rather fitting. Jennifer Bendery, who covers the White House for The Huffington Post, ‏tweeted, “Dem Rep. George Miller on rounding up 218 votes for discharge petition: ‘We expect we can get them all in one day.’”
 

DaveM

Paranormal Adept
Obama is like many previous presidents. He makes many promises to the faithful in order to get elected. Once elected reality sets in. Everyone who who gave money or support now wants payment. You know the golden rule... Those that have the gold, makes the rules.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Just heard that a Republican congressman has indicated - sorry for lack of details, heard it as I was walking through the television room and no details forthcoming from those there in non-listening mode :rolleyes: - in no uncertain terms, that the 'endgame is the defunding of Obamacare' and that the government will stay shut-down until Obama does just that. The defunding of Obamacare is the negotiating term. Nothing else to be negotiated.

LINK: Democrats Plan to Use the GOP's Own Bill Against Them to End Government Shutdown

"Dems have hit on a way to use a 'discharge petition', which forces a House vote if a majority of Representatives signs it, to try to force the issue. Previously, it was thought this could not work, because a discharge petition takes 30 legislative days to ripen, so if this were tried with the clean CR that passed the Senate, this couldn’t bear fruit until some time in November.

"That bill Representatives Chris Van Hollen and George Miller will reportedly use (The Government Shutdown Prevention Act) happens to be a Republican bill, so that’s rather fitting. Jennifer Bendery, who covers the White House for The Huffington Post, ‏tweeted, “Dem Rep. George Miller on rounding up 218 votes for discharge petition: ‘We expect we can get them all in one day.’”
They are either liars or morons. There is no way to defund the ACA in the way they want. It can't happen. It's already funded and already being implemented. Talk about insane.

Rational people would sit together and work out the kinks. But the Tea Party wants to destroy the government, which is why they push for this nonsense.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Obama is like many previous presidents. He makes many promises to the faithful in order to get elected. Once elected reality sets in. Everyone who who gave money or support now wants payment. You know the golden rule... Those that have the gold, makes the rules.
Remember that Obamacare is a giveaway to the health insurance companies. Obama says support my plan and you'll get up to 30 million new customers. How can they resist? Socialized medicine? The exact opposite.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
By any conventional definition, Obama is NOT a liberal, but very close to what one might consider a moderate Republican. The ACA, for example, is based on long-time Republican principles involving extensive free market participation. Obama, despite claims to the contrary, has accepted many Republican ideas in order to get things accomplished. The stimulus bill had a large tax cut to appease the other party, who still, for the most part, voted against it. The sequester cuts are in the continuing resolution, and those cuts were approved by Republicans.

Do I have to go on?

I wonder how many more moderate republicans are hiding in the democratic party while the GOP crystallizes around evangelicals and ultra-conservatives ?

Too bad there also has to be a social issues / Christian values division line between the GOP and Dems, it certainly adds a fair amount of fuel to the fire.
 

Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
..

There is no such thing as a free lunch

But if you were to go out on the streets right now wearing a sandwhich board saying "Taxation is your subscription to civilisation" "we should be paying more Tax"

You'd likely get your bum kicked by an angry mob....
So much truth in this. In social democratic countries people understand this.

It's probably surprising to many Americans, but when Danes are polled, the vast majority would rather keep things like public health care and education, instead of paying less tax. They'd even pay more tax, if needed, to keep those institutions 'healthy'.

But it takes a populace who feels part of a community, otherwise you get these petty discussions about who deserves what and who don't. The fact is, everyone deserves health care, rich or poor. This is not a matter of socialism, it's a matter of building a civilization.
 

TalkingMeatSuit

Paranormal Maven
I wonder how many more moderate republicans are hiding in the democratic party while the GOP crystallizes around evangelicals and ultra-conservatives ?

Too bad there also has to be a social issues / Christian values division line between the GOP and Dems, it certainly adds a fair amount of fuel to the fire.

Dividing up values and beliefs into 2 large groups is both inaccurate and inefficient. It's not a diverse enough representation and it seems to just enforce the divide among people.

Every election that I've been alive for seems the same: lots of promises followed by screwing things up worse than the predecessor. At this point I don't understand how people get so emotionally invested into the two-party system; it doesn't work and corporations still rule the day regardless of the party in power.

When your two choices are poop and crap, don't be surprised when things are shitty.
 

Stagger Lee

Paranormal Adept
TMS, I still find the two party "choice" and constant back and forth one of the biggest diversions -as far as local politics though, I find one particular party a huge threat to me being able to own a house, support my family -including providing them with health care and some kind of pension should I die before retirement, and last of all my ability to retire. This particular group of politicians have set goals for themselves, which includes breaking our employee union, thus removing us from our pension. They've succeeded in implementing employee only health benefits by threatening to outsource all the services we provide should our union refuse. I try not to repeat myself in a thread, but I find the only option I have in voting local is to vote a straight ticket against that particular party.
 

mike

Paranormal Adept
So much truth in this. In social democratic countries people understand this.

It's probably surprising to many Americans, but when Danes are polled, the vast majority would rather keep things like public health care and education, instead of paying less tax. They'd even pay more tax, if needed, to keep those institutions 'healthy'.

But it takes a populace who feels part of a community, otherwise you get these petty discussions about who deserves what and who don't. The fact is, everyone deserves health care, rich or poor. This is not a matter of socialism, it's a matter of building a civilization.

Very true.
As i posted earlier my sister in law has just had a heart lung transplant, and it was free.
I have to wonder what happpens to people in the US in that same boat and with no money ?

Do they just die ?
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
So much truth in this. In social democratic countries people understand this.

It's probably surprising to many Americans, but when Danes are polled, the vast majority would rather keep things like public health care and education, instead of paying less tax. They'd even pay more tax, if needed, to keep those institutions 'healthy'.

But it takes a populace who feels part of a community, otherwise you get these petty discussions about who deserves what and who don't. The fact is, everyone deserves health care, rich or poor. This is not a matter of socialism, it's a matter of building a civilization.
I don't know about how strong you have to feel about being part of a community as is not America defined by a history of strong communities? Perhaps the problem is that its communities are too segregated by race and divided by class. What Europe has to its advantage is the wisdom that comes with running civilization , or their version of it, for so many hundreds and hundreds of years. Time has taught them about the redistribution of weath, the importance of caring for the elderly, the necessities of recycling, the usefulness of smaller cars, more buses and bike lanes. They know from past experiments that safer, more productive, and healthier communities come from more taxes and social care.

North America has always been a "me first" society and a greedy society. That's what gave birth to it and it will take even longer to change that value space so long as religious zealotry infects the political body. North America is poisoned by its own desires and historical motivations.
 

Tyger

Paranormal Adept
North America has always been a "me first" society and a greedy society. That's what gave birth to it and it will take even longer to change that value space so long as religious zealotry infects the political body. North America is poisoned by its own desires and historical motivations.

Not so - history says otherwise. Massive cooperation was necessary to settle the North American continent. People depended on each other. What is distinctive about the settlement early on was the enclaves, however.

There is a current fiction abroad - and I have my suspicions how it originated - that the US (in particular) is a place where you 'do it on your own'. Never was. Isn't now. Will never be. It is a fiction that appears to have corrupted the ideals and vision of this country. Very sad. But the reality is, as always, more complex. The basic cooperating, helping narrative continues to live and thrive despite the appearances currently. IMO.
 
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stonehart

Paranormal Adept
this is blunt and to the point



don't mean to sound rude but from the outside your political system looks .. well .. fucked!
 
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RenaissanceLady

Paranormal Adept
This summarizes it perfectly:

So, Imagine that the company you work for held a poll, and asked everyone if they thought it would be a good idea to put a soda machine in the break room. The poll came back, and the majority of your colleagues said “Yes”, indicating that they would like a soda machine. Some said no, but the majority said yes. So, a week later, there’s a soda machine.

Now imagine that Bill in accounting voted against the soda machine. He has a strong hatred for caffeinated soft drinks, thinks they are bad you you, whatever. He campaigns throughout the office to get the machine removed. Well, management decides “OK, we’ll ask again” and again, the majority of people say “Yes, lets keep the soda machine.”

Bill continues to campaign, and management continues to ask the employees, and every time, the answer is in favor of the soda machine. This happens, lets say… 35 times. Eventually, Bill says “OK, I’M NOT PROCESSING PAYROLL ANYMORE UNTIL THE SODA MACHINE IS REMOVED”, so nobody will get paid unless management removes the machine.

What should we do???

Answer: Fire Bill and get someone who will do the fucking job.

Bonus: Bill tells everyone that he was willing to “Negotiate”, to come to a solution where everyone got their payroll checks, but only so long as that negotiation capitulated to his demand to remove the soda machine.

Bill is a fucking jackass.

-Brian Krewson via themetricruler
Bill Is A Fucking Jackass | CeeDubb.com

Yes, Bill is most certainly a jackass.
 

Han

piscator ψ
I don't know about how strong you have to feel about being part of a community as is not America defined by a history of strong communities? Perhaps the problem is that its communities are too segregated by race and divided by class. What Europe has to its advantage is the wisdom that comes with running civilization , or their version of it, for so many hundreds and hundreds of years. Time has taught them about the redistribution of weath, the importance of caring for the elderly, the necessities of recycling, the usefulness of smaller cars, more buses and bike lanes. They know from past experiments that safer, more productive, and healthier communities come from more taxes and social care.

North America has always been a "me first" society and a greedy society. That's what gave birth to it and it will take even longer to change that value space so long as religious zealotry infects the political body. North America is poisoned by its own desires and historical motivations.


In my opinion Europe has the exact same problems as the USA, the only difference is that we (Europeans) are more guarded and dishonest when it comes to things like racism.
Up until a few years ago I was convinced that my country was not a racist one and that the general person on the street was aware of the debt that we still owe to those who fought beside us in the second war. Sadly I am now very aware that there "forces" at work that aim to rewrite history and perception. A perfect example of this is when a "leaflet" from the BNP* was posted through my letter box. On the front of this leaflet there was an anti immigration slogan and a Spitfire, the intention was to drum up feelings of national pride, but the moron who put the leaflet together had used a picture of a Spitfire flown by one of the Polish squadrons based in Britain (after poland was invaded) and that took part in the battle of Britain. What upset me the most was that I only recognised the error because I have an interest WWII Aeroplanes but the vast majority of my peers have little or no interest in them and therefore would take the "propaganda" at face value.
That leads me to the next irony, there is a common feeling in the UK that Americans are crazy to want to own guns and to be able to carry them at all times, however there is a very good reason that guns are not allowed in Britain and that is because we could not be trusted to own them.
We are a violent and warlike people, which in the past has been very much to our advantage, the only difference now is people express this through things like football(soccer). I love the game, but I am constantly revolted by the general mentality of football fans. over the lasts few months there have been so many incidents that highlight the level of racism and hatred among fans and players. The latest being an England player opening a small window into the general mentality by saying that only people who are born in England should be allowed to play for England. At face value this seems "reasonable" but the reality is that if you become a "British" citizen and have not played for another nation, you have the right to play for your (new) country.

I guess overall what I am trying to say is that we (the world) still have a lot of work to do, and "they" are actively driving wedges between us. What I find most depressing is that things like WWII are now being used as a tool to divide us, when it should be used to show how easily we can be lead to total destruction. Even a cursory glance at WWII from a British perspective shows that if it was not for our allies we would not have survived the German onslaught. In a nutshell we are far stronger when we work together and treat others how we would like to be treated. I find it wrong that the sacrifices made by good honest people who gave everything, so that we can say and do what we want, are so disrespected by the abuse of things like freedom of speech, love and movement.
Sorry to keep going on but I find the rise of the far right in my country to be horrific, do these people not realise that their grandparents or parents were well and truly under attack from bombs and rockets sent by fascists? where is the love and respect? how can they see past this fact? I wish the answer was because they are stupid, but sadly I know this not to be true. The people or organisations behind these malicious concepts are as far as I can tell, incredibly well educated, organised and ruthless and a much more serious enemy, than most good people realise.

Last thing I promise! Sometimes things need to be simplified to black and white or right and wrong, with this in mind I truly believe that things can get better for all people if "we" want them too.


*british national party (far right)
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
Not so - history says otherwise. Massive cooperation was necessary to settle the North American continent. People depended on each other. What is distinctive about the settlement early on was the enclaves, however.

There is a current fiction abroad - and I have my suspicions how it originated - that the US (in particular) is a place where you 'do it on your own'. Never was. Isn't now. Will never be. It is a fiction that appears to have corrupted the ideals and vision of this country. Very sad. But the reality is as always more complex. The basic cooperating, helping narrative continues to live and thrive despite the appearances currently. IMO.

My north ameican history version: I believe my post started with, "is not America defined by a history of strong communities?" To be truthful though, if early settlers hadn't accepted and sought out help from the Indiginous population, after dying out in the cold over and over again everytime a boat load of Europeans was dropped off here, the whole white domination colonial thing would never have got started. But once the enclaves started picking up steam slavery soon helped to really get communities stronger. Wave after wave of newly exploited immigrant labour was the next piece of the puzzle and following that empire continued to proceed up until someone decided to break the melting pot that everyone's been feeding off of for so long and so well, even to be poor here is to be wealthy in most of the rest of the world, and that has roughly brought us up to now.

I understand this history of community building as Canada's story is the same as the one down south except with good healthcare and just a little more rural and Catholic, which gave us some different drives, less slavery, but the same basic approach to both community and aboriginal genocide. For not all communities are equal in this story, and that which could have been our biggest strength is part of our undoing. However, I'm very optimistic that as we continue to move through this economic blight, we become more secular, more concerrned with issues of equity and diversity.

Unfortunately, our attitud towards who should be prosperous and who should not is still tied to the notion of getting ahead by stepping on someone else in our Ayn Rand shoes. So, perhaps to qualify, I would say that the ethic has always been about striking it rich, and getting rich with others like me and not wanting to pay tax on our riches to pay for the infrastructure and general well being of everyone else in our community.

As for Europe, it still has a racist legacy to be sure, has not dealt well with immigration, but it still has evolved a socialist ethic. That for me, is a wise approach to community. Recognizing that collective contribution and strong social services as a productive approach is something I admire. My Austrian cousin has a full tuition paid for at home and abroad so long as the marks are good and with no expectation of any repayment.

My other cousin is a nurse who post birth has two years off, her job is secured and all the basic necessities of life are paid for by the state while she raises her kids in a supportive and positive environment. How's it work in America? Last I heard women get a pittance of time off after birth and basically forces them to give up their jobs if they want to care for their children. As kids get older many families have to decide if they want to give kids a university education or pay for dad's chemo. The difference in priorities, in terms of community building, is striking.
 
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DaveM

Paranormal Adept
t
Not so - history says otherwise. Massive cooperation was necessary to settle the North American continent. People depended on each other. What is distinctive about the settlement early on was the enclaves, however.

There is a current fiction abroad - and I have my suspicions how it originated - that the US (in particular) is a place where you 'do it on your own'. Never was. Isn't now. Will never be. It is a fiction that appears to have corrupted the ideals and vision of this country. Very sad. But the reality is, as always, more complex. The basic cooperating, helping narrative continues to live and thrive despite the appearances currently. IMO.

I agree Tyger. The US rebuilt Europe after World War II by the Marshall Plan. Americans are quite generous, giving plenty of money to foreign countries. You have separate the politicians we vote in from the citizens. One of the problems is... humans have a short memory span. They tend to forget the good things being done and tend to dwell on the bad.
 

tom1961

Paranormal Maven
As a middle class person with out health insurance because of
my wife's conditions I have looked in to my cost under the affordable
care act and the cost is going to be too much for me to afford.
 

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