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Tea party holding the US as hostage ?

Government shutdown after midnight ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • No

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 11.1%

  • Total voters
    9

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Pretty scary stuff happening today and a big part of this fabricated crisis is due in large part to a lack of dialogue.

If one were to look at the Muslim Brotherhood and the Tea Party and see two contemporary social movements that are very different, one must look again: They are twins who were separated at birth. How so? Their contempt for the democratic process, for one, their explicit and overt attempt to undermine any form of a democratic welfare state if they do not explicitly benefit from it, for another. Then there is their inability to establish a democratic dialogue given their vocal distaste for any expression of bipartisan cooperation.

Tea Party and Muslim Brotherhood: twins separated at birth / UCLA Today
On two different continents, two conservative social movements — which on the surface may seem to have nothing in common — are conspiring against democracy to derail any progress of individual freedom and community solidarity for the sake of their own agenda. The Tea Party's and Muslim Brotherhood's views on race, gender, class and religion egregiously undermine the entire social context of democracy.

Without a technically competent, ethically sound, empirically engaging, and politically feasible theory and practice of democratic multicultural citizenship, people will be lost. As the Book of Proverbs says, "Where there is no vision, the people perish." (King James Bible Cambridge edition 29:18). If the Muslim Brotherhood and the Tea Party reach their goals, democracy will perish and, along with it, the people will perish, as well. We should not let that happen. We should not let them succeed.
 

Pygar2

Skilled Investigator
Hilarious spoof on what people think the T.E.A. Party is all about...

We are not only Taxed Enough Already, but far too much. You want more "democratic welfare"? Donate, don't force others to do so by making *your* pet charity, *their* taxes.
Their view on race- (and I don't mean the Stealth Liberals who mysteriously show up two minutes before the photographers, with poorly spelled racist signs- and are the only ones whose pictures get posted) is that whatever it is, you'd best wear it with good citizenship.
If *you* want to pay more for poor health care, do so- don't expect us to sit by and lap up the fallout of your error as though it were candy. No one is telling you not to pay more and get less- feel free! Or did you really think the doctors and hospitals would be working for free? The government surely won't be...
As far as the views of democracy- why do you define that as "your side always doing the talking and getting its way"?
Class? Religion? Gender? Be a good, moral citizen, and see how very few complaints you will get, on any of those points.
 
F

Fcseven

Guest
gadsden_flag.gif
Go Tea Party!
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Check out this blog... kind of sums up the situation. Civil war coming up ?

Stonekettle Station: Conservikaze

House Republicans are no longer “the loyal opposition,” they exist only to seek revenge for the shame of their party’s loss to Barack Obama. Their uncompromising extremism drives them forward oblivious to all else, fixed on a single unobtainable goal that they will never reach even as their civilization crumbles unnoticed around them. Their unreasoning rage and boiling arrogance blinds them to the very people who they are supposed to be representing and they leave us all sitting out in the open, unprotected, while death falls from the sky.

Americans as a nation had a clear opportunity to end Obamacare themselves.

Last November they could have elected a president who promised to repeal the ACA by executive fiat on his first day in office. Instead they overwhelmingly reelected Barack Obama. The message to congress, to conservatives, and most especially to the Tea Party extremists, was clear and unequivocal: their philosophy was soundly rejected by the people and the country they claim to represent.

And yet, the extremists refuse to admit their defeat.

They are pathologically incapable of it, they are pathologically incapable of reason and compromise.

Which is, of course, the very nature of extremism.

Always there are extremists who know that they are on the wrong side of history, they know it, and yet instead of compromise and reason they inevitably choose to ride the last bomb down into oblivion.
 

Pygar2

Skilled Investigator
When did being middle and upper class get declared illegal, or even morally wrong? Must have missed it.

Yes, the 47% can elect themselves bread and circuses, for a while, until the system breaks down. But it is really a better idea to keep civilization from collapse. That is what you are calling "extremism", by the way. Not far-out Lefties trying to force their bills, and their charities, to be someone else's tax-and-freedoms burden... *We* are not the extremists here. We are the solid core of the culture, and the only hope of survival- not those airy-fairy Marxist dreams. ALL Leftism starts with the notion that the government should have all real power, not the people- and it gets worse from there. Remember back when they used to say "Power to the people!"? Wonder whatever happened to make them change their minds- they certainly aren't saying it today.

We, the Right, are. And you hate us for it.
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Are you at all aware that the Tea Party, so called, was not a grassroots movement, but bought and funded by the Koch brothers with the complicity of Fox News and other conservative outlets?

Are you at all aware that your illusions about the Left are utterly wrong? The 47% statement was just a fantasy by that failed presidential candidate, not a reality. The fact is that the Left doesn't hate success, nor expect the government to have all the answers.

I'm speaking as someone with no political affiliation. I have problems with all of 'em, but I have a respect for facts, and I see very little in your statements.
 

Decker

Administrator
Staff member
What many people miss here is that this so-called Tea Party largely consists of middle income Americans, and much of it was financed and promoted by billionaires such as the Koch brothers.

Well Gene, people also forget that MoveOn.org is financed by George Soros ... a real friend of the USA .... right? And MoveOn is so fair ... and honest.

Decker
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
Partly. But a lot of what's being said about Soros is exaggerated. Consider that a prince from Saudi Arabia owns about 10% or so if Fox? This is the guy who offered a donation NYC after 9/11, and it was refused by the mayor.
 

RenaissanceLady

Paranormal Adept
Some of us have a pretty decent grasp of history, so we understand that many Republicans were opposed to the New Deal, believing FDR was a traitor to his class. I wonder what would have happened if those Republicans who were opposed to the New Deal in general and the Social Security Act in particular decided to try and derail it 42 times and spend the equivalent of $50 million to do so? What would our country look like today if we had been held hostage to the point that a president could not do what he was elected to do, therefore derailing the only security program available to seniors? I imagine every person who has been denied or otherwise lost a pension, or lost investments, or relied upon a spouse for retirement income, is grateful to have another form of security that prevents them from utter destitution.

Fast-forward thirty years. We're in the middle of a costly war, yet LBJ started his Great Society. This included the Civil Rights Act, the War on Poverty, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, Medicare and Medicaid. Imagine if the conservatives who opposed LBJ's Great Society listened to their most radical members, becoming so opposed to any civil rights, public school funding, or healthcare for the elderly and/or poor that they wasted countless years on 42 different failed votes and an additional equivalent of $50 million to try and destroy any hope for health and equality? I would assume we wouldn't have the Voting Rights Act, many of us would have had a substandard public education and we'd have countless retirees who have no health insurance at all because they are no longer employed.

I could give countless other examples of Republican obstructionism, but nothing that compares to what is happening today. The GOP has again proven that it has consistently been on the wrong side of history for about a century. Now they're going for broke, holding the rest of the country hostage in order to do so.

"Obamacare" isn't exactly a new idea. What I find most surprising is the uproar the Republicans are giving to something that was initially a Republican plan - back when I was in high school. Oh yeah, you read that right. The Heritage Foundation developed a plan entitled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans" in 1989. It goes into quite a bit of detail explaining the "Problems with the U.S. Health System," including a section about how employer mandates hurt the access to healthcare. Their conservative solution was to require an individual mandate, a strategy to bring down healthcare costs, and a plan to change the tax codes.

Sound familiar? It should. For that matter, Bob Dole also stressed this plan as a response to the healthcare reform the Clinton's were advocating. Once upon a time, "Obamacare" was the dream child of the GOP platform. There's no shortage of Republicans who advocated for exactly what is in Obama's Affordable Care Act. The difference now, is that the Republicans would rather see the country fail rather than do anything that supports the president's agenda.

If the Republicans truly believed that "Obamacare" would be a disaster, there would be no need to try to repeal it 42 times at a cost of $50 million while shutting down the government to do so. They could simply try it, let it fail, and reap the benefits during the next election. That's just it. They know that once people understand the benefits of this program, they won't want it to go away. At the most, they might simply want it tweaked. Some of us are actually glad that little kids can no longer reach their lifetime maximum of benefits, thereby losing any access to health insurance *for the rest of their lives*. I'm sure there are even some Republican moms who are glad they can keep their kids on their insurance plan well past college graduation. I imagine quite a few workers who have had their hours cut by their employers so that they do not qualify for employer-mandated healthcare are glad they can still get some health insurance. On a personal note, I'm just ducky with the fact that an illness I dared get when I was 3 can't still be used to either deny me coverage or certain health procedures. As an adult who now has lupus and had to put myself in a Very Bad Position to get any health insurance, I'm glad my pre-existing can no longer be used as a weapon against me, preventing me from medical access.

The Republicans had control of our government for eight years, during which time we saw the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil in history, watched as a record surplus became a record deficit, started a war with a country that did not attack us, and we entered the worst recession since WWII. While we were being governed this badly, they could have at least dusted off their own health care plan and offered it to the American public. That didn't happen. The people who thought the Magna Carta was some new, liberal idea and that Due Process could and should be suspended weren't really thinking about the welfare of the people they were supposed to serve. Go figure.

Well, now we've twice elected someone who is trying to offer some kind of healthcare reform. We even specifically and soundly defeated someone who swore he'd kill "Obamacare." Still, the GOP isn't getting the message. They didn't just "not win." They lost, big time. The problem is that they keep thinking if they alienate and oppress the majority of voters, they'll come out on top. This should be the definition of insanity.
 

Heidi Lemmer

Paranormal Adept
Who would have thought that electing people based entirely on how much they hate the government would result in the government shutting down? (Sarcasm meter set to "Extreme.")

Some people get what they deserve. Others are taken hostage for the ride. I am genuinely grieving for my country.
Some of us have a pretty decent grasp of history, so we understand that many Republicans were opposed to the New Deal, believing FDR was a traitor to his class. I wonder what would have happened if those Republicans who were opposed to the New Deal in general and the Social Security Act in particular decided to try and derail it 42 times and spend the equivalent of $50 million to do so? What would our country look like today if we had been held hostage to the point that a president could not do what he was elected to do, therefore derailing the only security program available to seniors? I imagine every person who has been denied or otherwise lost a pension, or lost investments, or relied upon a spouse for retirement income, is grateful to have another form of security that prevents them from utter destitution.

Fast-forward thirty years. We're in the middle of a costly war, yet LBJ started his Great Society. This included the Civil Rights Act, the War on Poverty, the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, Medicare and Medicaid. Imagine if the conservatives who opposed LBJ's Great Society listened to their most radical members, becoming so opposed to any civil rights, public school funding, or healthcare for the elderly and/or poor that they wasted countless years on 42 different failed votes and an additional equivalent of $50 million to try and destroy any hope for health and equality? I would assume we wouldn't have the Voting Rights Act, many of us would have had a substandard public education and we'd have countless retirees who have no health insurance at all because they are no longer employed.

I could give countless other examples of Republican obstructionism, but nothing that compares to what is happening today. The GOP has again proven that it has consistently been on the wrong side of history for about a century. Now they're going for broke, holding the rest of the country hostage in order to do so.

"Obamacare" isn't exactly a new idea. What I find most surprising is the uproar the Republicans are giving to something that was initially a Republican plan - back when I was in high school. Oh yeah, you read that right. The Heritage Foundation developed a plan entitled "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans" in 1989. It goes into quite a bit of detail explaining the "Problems with the U.S. Health System," including a section about how employer mandates hurt the access to healthcare. Their conservative solution was to require an individual mandate, a strategy to bring down healthcare costs, and a plan to change the tax codes.

Sound familiar? It should. For that matter, Bob Dole also stressed this plan as a response to the healthcare reform the Clinton's were advocating. Once upon a time, "Obamacare" was the dream child of the GOP platform. There's no shortage of Republicans who advocated for exactly what is in Obama's Affordable Care Act. The difference now, is that the Republicans would rather see the country fail rather than do anything that supports the president's agenda.

If the Republicans truly believed that "Obamacare" would be a disaster, there would be no need to try to repeal it 42 times at a cost of $50 million while shutting down the government to do so. They could simply try it, let it fail, and reap the benefits during the next election. That's just it. They know that once people understand the benefits of this program, they won't want it to go away. At the most, they might simply want it tweaked. Some of us are actually glad that little kids can no longer reach their lifetime maximum of benefits, thereby losing any access to health insurance *for the rest of their lives*. I'm sure there are even some Republican moms who are glad they can keep their kids on their insurance plan well past college graduation. I imagine quite a few workers who have had their hours cut by their employers so that they do not qualify for employer-mandated healthcare are glad they can still get some health insurance. On a personal note, I'm just ducky with the fact that an illness I dared get when I was 3 can't still be used to either deny me coverage or certain health procedures. As an adult who now has lupus and had to put myself in a Very Bad Position to get any health insurance, I'm glad my pre-existing can no longer be used as a weapon against me, preventing me from medical access.

The Republicans had control of our government for eight years, during which time we saw the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil in history, watched as a record surplus became a record deficit, started a war with a country that did not attack us, and we entered the worst recession since WWII. While we were being governed this badly, they could have at least dusted off their own health care plan and offered it to the American public. That didn't happen. The people who thought the Magna Carta was some new, liberal idea and that Due Process could and should be suspended weren't really thinking about the welfare of the people they were supposed to serve. Go figure.

Well, now we've twice elected someone who is trying to offer some kind of healthcare reform. We even specifically and soundly defeated someone who swore he'd kill "Obamacare." Still, the GOP isn't getting the message. They didn't just "not win." They lost, big time. The problem is that they keep thinking if they alienate and oppress the majority of voters, they'll come out on top. This should be the definition of insanity.
I couldn't have said anything you just said better, thank you.
 

Jimi H.

Paranormal Adept
..Be a good, moral citizen, and see how very few complaints you will get, on any of those points.
I don't see much in the way of morals coming from your side, bud. No thought for the poor, for instance, who have to work on slave wages and won't ever be able to send their children to college by making their own money. So much for equal opportunity, how much power do these people have, even to change their own life?

The people for whom you are being a tool, have no morals. No matter what the taxes are, the people who brainwashed you and filled you with hate towards your fellow citizens will always try to get away with paying as little as possible, while reaping all benefits for themselves.

Democracy is different, together people can make moral decisions for the common good. The 'me, me, me' attitude is so simple-minded and primitive, this is the image that popped into my head when I read your post:

angry-monkey-albino.jpg


I pity you people with your lack of compassion, and your acute, angry, primitive individualism which even makes you unable to function in a political community, I imagine a lack of intellect is part of the problem. Sad.
 
Last edited:

boomerang

Paranormal Adept
The current situation is what happens when elected officials indulge in decades of denial in ignoring a healthcare crisis that started at the very socioeconomic bottom and has slowly worked its way up the class and income structure, and the end is not in sight. The long entrenched fallacy is that healthcare is just another free enterprise business disconnected from the most basic of human ethical concerns. This is simply not so.
 

Stagger Lee

Paranormal Adept
Hilarious spoof on what people think the T.E.A. Party is all about...

We are not only Taxed Enough Already, but far too much. You want more "democratic welfare"? Donate, don't force others to do so by making *your* pet charity, *their* taxes.
Their view on race- (and I don't mean the Stealth Liberals who mysteriously show up two minutes before the photographers, with poorly spelled racist signs- and are the only ones whose pictures get posted) is that whatever it is, you'd best wear it with good citizenship.
If *you* want to pay more for poor health care, do so- don't expect us to sit by and lap up the fallout of your error as though it were candy. No one is telling you not to pay more and get less- feel free! Or did you really think the doctors and hospitals would be working for free? The government surely won't be...
As far as the views of democracy- why do you define that as "your side always doing the talking and getting its way"?
Class? Religion? Gender? Be a good, moral citizen, and see how very few complaints you will get, on any of those points.

I work for a public school district. We have a couple board members who are self proclaimed Tea Partiers. They have tried relentlessly to break our union, through outsourcing. Their mission is to take away health benefits (of which they succeeded removing benefits for employees dependents, children included) and take us off any kind of pension plan(of which we contribute) What they stand for is a threat to blue collar workers- not ONLY those who collect welfare. This is just a my own perspective of local govt that effects my ability to provide for my family. On a national level, I hate to think what they could accomplish- example, social security.
 

RenaissanceLady

Paranormal Adept
If there's any good news, as of today, the healthcare exchanges are open. Those of us without health insurance, or substandard health insurance, or who are paying more than 9.5% of our income toward employer-mandated insurance, will now have access to affordable healthcare. This is an excellent article explaining what we need to know about "Obamacare."

Obamacare Exchanges Open for Business: What You Need to Know
Answering key questions about the Affordable Care Act

A centerpiece of the Affordable Care Act launches today with new health insurance exchanges opening in every state. The exchanges are the central element of the law’s attempt to provide affordable coverage for middle-income uninsured Americans. Federal officials say they expect enrollment in new insurance plans through the exchanges will start off slowly, in part due to computer glitches in software and a general lack of awareness among the public. Here are some frequently asked questions about how the exchanges will work, and who could benefit.

What changes today?

New state-based Obamacare insurance marketplaces, called exchanges, are opening for business. Coverage plans sold through the exchanges will comply with new Obamacare regulations that prohibit insurers from discriminating against those with pre-existing health conditions.

The open enrollment period that begins on Oct. 1 will last until March 31. All plans purchased between now and mid-December will begin on Jan. 1, 2014. Those who are eligible to shop in the exchanges won’t be able to buy coverage there after March 31 unless they have a major life event, like a job loss or divorce that affects coverage.

Can I shop in an exchange?

The federal government expects about 7 million to enroll in new insurance plans through the exchanges in the next year and about 22 million people to get coverage there by 2016. You are eligible to buy an insurance plan if you don’t receive insurance coverage through a federal program, like Medicaid or Medicare, and don’t have access to employer-based coverage that costs you less than 9.5 percent of your income.

The exchanges will distribute federal subsidies to those earning up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level, about $46,000 for an individual and $95,000 for a family of four. An individual earning less than $28,000 per year may also be eligible for government assistance to cover deductibles and other out-of-pocket expenses



Read more: Obamacare Exchanges Open for Business: What You Need to Know | TIME.com

If anyone has time for a video, the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation put together an excellent piece about "Obamacare." It dispels the rumors that have been circulating and does a good job of explaining how this landmark legislation.

The YouToons Get Ready for Obamacare: Health Insurance Changes Coming Your Way Under the Affordable Care Act | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
I don't see much in the way of morals coming from your side, bud. No thought for the poor, for instance, who have to work on slave wages and won't ever be able to send their children to college by making their own money. So much for equal opportunity, how much power do these people have, even to change their own life?

The people for whom you are being a tool, have no morals. No matter what the taxes are, the people who brainwashed you and filled you with hate towards your fellow citizens will always try to get away with paying as little as possible, while reaping all benefits for themselves.

Democracy is different, together people can make moral decisions for the common good. The 'me, me, me' attitude is so simple-minded and primitive, this is the image that popped into my head when I read your post:

angry-monkey-albino.jpg


I pity you people with your lack of compassion, and your acute, angry, primitive individualism which even makes you unable to function in a political community, I imagine a lack of intellect is part of the problem. Sad.

You'd think the association of evangelicals and religious-right with the Tea party would make it more compassionate... This behavior is closer to the Egyptian Muslim brotherhood. The only dialogue possible has to be bible-compliant ;) Its a clear breach of church state separation.. When you start looking at the weird bills that are sent up to the senate (contraception ...)
 

Burnt State

Paranormal Adept
*We* are not the extremists here. We are the solid core of the culture, and the only hope of survival- not those airy-fairy Marxist dreams. ALL Leftism starts with the notion that the government should have all real power, not the people- and it gets worse from there. Remember back when they used to say "Power to the people!"? Wonder whatever happened to make them change their minds- they certainly aren't saying it today.

We, the Right, are. And you hate us for it.

Strange, as a Canadian who has aways celebrated the great gift to social good that is universal health care, (yes, even if I have to wait in emerg. with a broken foot for four hours) the whole Tea Party approach seems utterly surreal. Reading nursery rhymes and stopping gov't process instead of communicating? I see extremists that have been deluded by the wealth of the billionaire who gave you a target group to hate and thus legitimized backwards propaganda for you all to believe. It looks sad and bizarre from my p.o.v..

People are empowered when the gov't does right by caring for those who have the least. What I find utterly inconceivable is that the argument for the right to choose between paying for chemotherapy or the family groceries has been construed as empowerment. I don't get this thinking at all.
 

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