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Stanford and O'Brien Episode - October 4, 2009

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Did some reading on the Socorro case, and i think, the evidence found is pretty compelling.I also was mistaken, in thinking that the noise from the craft was always there both in flight, and take off.It seems the noise disappeared, once the object was in flight and flew across the sky.I think that removes the possibility of a hoax. The speed of the object, once it took off, was said to be around 120 miles per hour. A type of balloon doing 120 miles a hour, is not very likely. So what craft, we know of today is able to fly silently in flight? A balloon, yes, but doing a speed of 12O miles an hour is not likely... A blimp... no ... some noise ,and i think Zamora would be able to tell the difference anyway. So what are you left with that could account for Zamora descriptions of the craft, the silence in flight and speed mentioned above? I can't think of anything myself.

That's the crux of the high strangeness of the Zamora case right there--the silent departure at high speed. The craft was very noisy on takeoff and landing, but then became completely silent as it departed (according to Zamora). No known human craft, then or now, can do this. In addition to the high speed, balloons can't fly directly into the wind, as this object did, a stiff wind at that.

That's why I just roll my eyes whenever somebody proposes an "explanation" like hot air balloon or lunar surveyor being towed by a helicopter. Such explanations are sheer idiocy.

The craft likely departed at speeds much higher than 120 mph. Zamora said it got smaller and smaller, then faded out in the vicinity of 6 Mile Canyon (about 6 miles away). He estimated total departure time to fadeout at only 10 seconds, but Ray Stanford thought 20 seconds more reasonable. If accurate, that means its average speed was over 1000 mph on departure, and its peak speed would have been even higher. (Incidentally, someone with normal human acuity could indeed see something the size of the Socorro object fade out at around 6 miles. The estimate is very reasonable. Zamora must have had normal acuity or he couldn't have passed his police physical and become a traffic cop.)


White overalls worn by human looking teenagers, might suggest to some people a lab experiment or a hoax created by kids. There is many problems with that version of the story. ONE... That this kids in 1964, created a craft/ or ship, and which seemed to have a weight of number of tons going on the evidence, and which they were able fly in, doing a speed of 120 miles/hour and completely silent in flight. Ya right what craft is completely silent even today? This from a logical standpoint does not make any sense.

Again nice summary. That's why I think the hoax hypothesis, that some bright NM Tech students were capable of pulling this off, is complete garbage. Nobody could have hoaxed all these details.

The possibility of hoax was thoroughly investigated back in 1964 and afterward. Hynek thought the only way the thing could possibly have been hoaxed was if Zamora himself was the main hoaxer (invented details) and had collusion from the other Socorro law enforcement people and the FBI to cover up any evidence of a hoax. Hynek thought that highly unlikely, and still didn't explain the physical evidence left behind or the existence of other witnesses, such as the tourists driving through who reported the object passing directly over their car before it landed.

The red symbols on the craft, described by Zamora are interesting to me. I Remember listening to a interview, last week by Mac' Tonnies on Coast to Coast. He was talking about a case from Brazil. Where a person by the name of Antonio Vilas Villa, had claimed that he, was abducted by small child beings. During his ordeal, he said human looking beings were aboard the craft and one of this human looking beings, a women had sex with him. Now , i don't now what to make of that case. Tonnies believes it is a geniune case. This are just two parts of the story, that i found interesting. One the Craft, described by Antonio was said to roughly circular or egg shaped and extended three legs when it landed. The second part, Antonio said the small beings were wearing uniforms of a grey Color and near the shoulder was a Red emblem. Just thought people might find that interesting.

Interesting observation. Ray Stanford on the show mentioned other similar landed egg-shaped object cases, including loud noise on takeoff and/or landing and two small beings seen nearby, some French classics from 1954 and 1980 (classic Trans en Provence case), again with physical trace evidence left behind. He lists many more in his book. He also mentioned Ted Philips observation of these cases, that you could usually predict the shape of the reported UFO from the landing marks left behind. Three marks indicated a saucer; four marks an oval-shaped type Socorro craft.

David Rudiak
 
I was loving the show until Ray flipped out on David (kudos to David for keeping his cool). Still enjoyed the show; this is one of the most fascinating cases in ufology and Ray is obviously an amazing researcher.
 
But Ray's behavior towards David and threatening to hang up kind of left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm beginning to learn that Ray is a bit fiery. I don't know if this has always been the case or not. But he also goes off on Radio Misterioso at Walter during Bishops interview. I think the message gets sort of lost when people do that. Maybe he doesn't realize that sometimes the presentation and discourse is as important as what is being presented (well, it's really not, but a pleasant demeanor is certainly helpful). It's hard for me to listen to the message when the person comes off as rude, abrasive, or stubborn. It reminds me a little of a Bob Knight/player analogy - "Don't listen to him when he's calling you an asshole, but listen to WHY he is calling you an asshole" (paraphrased)

Either way he is an interesting guy. He goes on to reveal that he did some channeling as well (didn't know that). And that he, as far as I can tell, bounced laser beams off of a ufo giving some sort of physical signature. And he talks about some other strange things he was involved with as well. I'll have to listen to it again as I didn't understand everything he was talking about (missed a few parts of the show).

Huh,.. looks like a Christopher O'Brien interview has just been added.

http://www.radiomisterioso.com/
 
He also mentioned Ted Philips observation of these cases, that you could usually predict the shape of the reported UFO from the landing marks left behind. Three marks indicated a saucer; four marks an oval-shaped type Socorro craft.

David Rudiak

David,

Actually, it wasn't Ray, it was me that pointed this out on the show, and apparently, in talking with Ted Phillips, he hadn't really paid attention to that correlation either, until I mentioned it.

And welcome to our forums!

dB
 
Stanford and O'Brian


Chris,

Can you provide us with any update on the status of Ray's collection of field data in addition to the above link? Is he actively working on publishing the complete collection in the foreseeable future and if so, how far off would you guess that to be? I may be mistaken but I believe I once heard you say elsewhere that you once saw his presentation in which some of these films are shown? Is there any intention of filming his powerpoint presentation? Is there any information publicly available on his data other than your page, the NICAP pages and what he has related in taped interviews?

As I have never seen any of his films and am currently under the impression that he has never released them to anyone I am also curious about the story that some tv show stole one of his filmed segments of a ufo in flight and used that in their opening sequence. Does anyone happen to recall the name of that show and know if that bit of film is up on the net?

His collection of data certainly sounds impressive so I sincerely hope we will all get to see it at some point.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drudiak

He also mentioned Ted Philips observation of these cases, that you could usually predict the shape of the reported UFO from the landing marks left behind. Three marks indicated a saucer; four marks an oval-shaped type Socorro craft.

David Rudiak



David,

Actually, it wasn't Ray, it was me that pointed this out on the show, and apparently, in talking with Ted Phillips, he hadn't really paid attention to that correlation either, until I mentioned it.

And welcome to our forums!

dB


I stand corrected David. Good catch on your part, Phillip's observation of object shape from landing pattern.

Incidentally, here is another very good documentary on Socorro recently posted on YouTube, from the old Sightings TV show. It has a lot of archival footage, Zamora returning to the scene, and even family home movies of the site from tourists who happened to be passing through and heard about the landing, showing, among other things, the burned bush cut in half.


It also demolishes the notion that the Socorro craft could have been a test of the lunar Surveyor craft, apparently a debunking "explanation" finally put out by the Air Force 21 years later. The documents do indicate they were doing landing tests of the Surveyor craft at the northern end of the White Sands range, but the tests on April 24, 1964 ended 5 hours before and the distance away would have been at least 60 miles. How would the Surveyor get over to Socorro?

Kevin Randle pointed out there is no documentation putting the Surveyor in Socorro at the given time, which is ridiculous on the face of it anyway. Why would it be carried over there and carried back instead of being kept on the range? (Also the north end of the range is off to the SSE, but the Socorro craft came in from the ENE and departed and disappeared to the WSW, away from the range.)

The Surveyor also looked nothing like what Zamora described. It was three-legged, not four, was stick-like, looked something like a camera tripod with instruments hanging off of it, not egg-shaped and the size of a car, was much smaller in size (weighed only 600 pounds, not several tons), had small round landing pads, not larger wedge-shaped rectangular ones, etc., etc. Nothing really matches.

But the clincher was JPL stating the test Surveyor could not fly, had no propulsion capability, and was instead being dropped from a tower to test its ability to survive a hard landing.

David Rudiak
 
Yes its too bad this wasnt very radio friendly, cause i know it was full of information and less speculation...it was just really hard to follow. I thought gene and david really gave him a lot of patience to finish thoughts off, but yeah it just kept going. And that comment about hanging up really didnt appeal to me at all...but at the same time i know how hard it can be when you got so much in your head that you just cant out the way you want.

Maybe some day if i really get compelled to look into the socorro case, i will listen through this episode and get more details out of it..but for now its just a lot of noise to me
 
David,

Actually, it wasn't Ray, it was me that pointed this out on the show, and apparently, in talking with Ted Phillips, he hadn't really paid attention to that correlation either, until I mentioned it.

And welcome to our forums!

dB

I found that fascinating too David. When you mentioned it it was the first time I had ever heard it.
 
I found that fascinating too David. When you mentioned it it was the first time I had ever heard it.

Well, it makes perfect engineering sense, in terms of maximizing load distribution based on the symmetry of the shapes and the center of gravity of the two different types of craft.

dB
 
But still its strange that you got this attention to detail, while at other times the laws of physics are just defied. Why is it that ufo's are often made out to look so orderly and at the same time is involved with every type of strange phenomena possible. I mean "technically" it would'nt need that, its more like its a detail for us to pick up.
 
An excellent podcast about a truly remarkable case. I'm glad that Ray was given the opportunity to share his first-hand knowledge regarding the known and measurable parameters of this event. Ray's "Socorro Saucer" volume is among the best UFO trace-case books ever published and I highly recommend this work. I can also tell you that, after more than 50 years of nearly full-time research, the Socorro case is about 1% of what Ray knows about ufology. His personality is indeed (sometimes intensely) mercurial at times, but I must say that I've learned more about ufology (i.e. the hard science and the "greater reality" implications) from my long discussions with Ray Stanford than with any other individual in the ufological community --two hours wouldn't scratch the surface, he has a wealth of verifiable knowledge. Strangely, it is somewhat surprising to me that he is not more widely known.
 
But still its strange that you got this attention to detail, while at other times the laws of physics are just defied. Why is it that ufo's are often made out to look so orderly and at the same time is involved with every type of strange phenomena possible. I mean "technically" it would'nt need that, its more like its a detail for us to pick up.

I see your point, but I think that the difference between these things defying the laws of physics when in flight, while needing to possibly include enough support legs for their 'craft' while landed is maybe due to the idea that whatever technology they employ to zip around isnt 'operating' (for lack of a better word).
 
Stanford and O'Brian

Chris,

Can you provide us with any update on the status of Ray's collection of field data in addition to the above link? Is he actively working on publishing the complete collection in the foreseeable future and if so, how far off would you guess that to be?

Yes, he is working with me (and others) on a way to properly post his data on-line. At this point I don't have a timetable for when this collection of data will be published. It is a massive amount of documentation and data plus much supporting analysis from his years of hard work.

I may be mistaken but I believe I once heard you say elsewhere that you once saw his presentation in which some of these films are shown? Is there any intention of filming his powerpoint presentation?

Yes, I set up an invitation-only presentation in Sedona November 2007. I didn't see entire films, but did see many sequences of stills that were all numbered and referenced to the original film frames. I videotaped the all day affair and promptly handed all of the tapes over to Ray, per our agreement. He has spent the last two years refining his powerpoint presentation and we are working on setting up another workshop to present the data to scientists —possibly in the spring.

Is there any information publicly available on his data other than your page, the NICAP pages and what he has related in taped interviews?

No, not to my knowledge, but hopefully this will change soon.

As I have never seen any of his films and am currently under the impression that he has never released them to anyone I am also curious about the story that some tv show stole one of his filmed segments of a ufo in flight and used that in their opening sequence. Does anyone happen to recall the name of that show and know if that bit of film is up on the net?

The show was the Alan Landsburg "In Search of: show from the '70s. The footage was in the opening sequence that features a white object that looks like a piece of chalk hovering in the clouds. It was shown at the start of every episode and is available on-line. I'll dig it up and post a link. The footage was from 1956 and the event was also filmed by a second 8mm film camera, btw and is still listed as an "unknown" in Bluebook. I found an Arthur C Clarke episode of Mysterious World that has a segment on Stanford's Project Starlight at: the segment starts at 4:30 and at 5:41 is a clip from another film by Ray of a 1959 event over Corpus Christi. Ray has captured dozens of films of daylight UFOs since the mid to late '50s.

His collection of data certainly sounds impressive so I sincerely hope we will all get to see it at some point.

It is beyond impressive! I've been working on him to present his data and digitize his films since I met him in 2003, but Ray is methodical and extremely precise, so his work will not be presented until he is ready.
 
Stanford and O'Brian

Last I heard David was going meet wit Ray (I think) to check out some of that stuff.

Not sure if thats still on the cards.

Im sure Ray will get it all out in time, but after hearing him talk it up multiple times on Gregs show Im more than ready to see it. Not implying I have any right to see it.... I just really wanna:D
 
Stanford and O'Brian

::) Yes - His emotionalism is definitely not an asset . . . If we all want the field to be taken seriously, he & others need to remember to put a lid on it when things get a little heated - especially when someone challenges them . . . I'm not saying that they need to drone on in a monotone - but they need to avoid sounding like they've just finished watching an episode of The Roadrunner Show . . . :eek:

I think Ray is an older gentleman who has devoted a massive amount of his life to UFO research. He is emotional, yes, and perhaps a bit scattered but in his mind, and ours too if we listen to him, he makes a lot of sense. The problem is with many older folks (and yeah, I'm getting there myself) they need more time to do things us younger whipper-snappers can do much faster, (like drive to the store!). It's clear Ray has a LOT of information in his mind. For every fact he has the background and I think he's trying to actually be respectful in giving so much data for a single piece of information. He wants to cover all the basis.

Unfortunately in a 2 hour program that Gene and David have to manage they simply do not have that kind of time. You could feel the tension in the hosts as they struggled to balance the utmost respect for Ray and the forward progression of the episode. I have to admit I was getting frustrated, too. I was driving on my hour-long commute screaming at Gene not to ask Ray another open-ended question!!! I think that was after David had dropped off or at least had gone quiet.

This was one of those episodes where you could tell the hosts are professional and respectful, even if they were frustrated. It was a good episode; I loved the information Ray presented about the case and I look forward to hearing and reading more about this "Roswell 2.0" incident.

Stay safe.
 
That was a very interesting episode, in several ways. Thanks to Gene and David for having Ray and Chris on the show, and indulging Ray's quirks. And thanks to Chris for facilitating Ray's appearance. Ray is a fountain of information, and I am intrigued by the tons of data he has accumulated. I would have thought there would be a lot more of that kind of instrumented data gathering done over the years, but I guess that is one more unfortunate result of the social taboo attached to Weird Things.

The current hoax "fairy tale," as Chris so succinctly described it, is silly enough without the information Ray brought to the show. I have to say I admire Ray's approach to "outing" Dr. Colgate's character issues. He just tells us straight up that he thinks some of Colgate's behavior is relevant, and proceeds to fill us in. If what Ray says about Colgate is true (and I have no reason at this point to doubt it), then he is an asshole and a creep. If he actually used the story about tying down a steam relief valve to recruit students, then he was promoting criminal activity in a very irresponsible way. People go to prison for such "pranks." It is unfortunate that such behavior from the president of such an institution in that place and time is all too believable.

It's also interesting that Colgate was claiming the sighting was a hoax immediately after it happened. Of course any number of "officials" investigating the episode would have loved to have such a convenient explanation handed to them, and the fact that no one gave it any credence at the time tells us all we need to know about Bragalia's claim. As if we needed it. The idea of people like Hynek, Air Force officers, state police officers, the press, and any number of others somehow missing any evidence of a hoax is laughable. Anyone who has spent ten minutes in the desert knows there would be footprints everywhere. For weeks.

And why does anyone still talk about tests of Surveyor or the LEM? That is absurd in so many ways. The only testing of the LEM was done on the "Flying Bedstead," a malevolent contraption designed to give the astronauts some experience with the control behavior. It had zero range, and looked anything but egg shaped. The actual LEM was designed to *just barely* fly in 1/6 Earth's gravity and no atmosphere, so of course it could not be test flown on Earth.

Anyway, as many have said before, you have to assume Zamorra was an idiot, Hynek a fool, and a dozen other people were all drunk and delusional for any of Bragalia's nonsense to even begin to look plausible.

The part that pisses me off about this whole idiotic affair is the fact that people who don't know any of the facts will seize the "hoax explanation" uncritically and write off an event that remains a mystery. It's not hard to imagine that is the whole purpose of this charade.
 
The current hoax "fairy tale," as Chris so succinctly described it, is silly enough without the information Ray brought to the show. I have to say I admire Ray's approach to "outing" Dr. Colgate's character issues. He just tells us straight up that he thinks some of Colgate's behavior is relevant, and proceeds to fill us in. If what Ray says about Colgate is true (and I have no reason at this point to doubt it), then he is an asshole and a creep. If he actually used the story about tying down a steam relief valve to recruit students, then he was promoting criminal activity in a very irresponsible way. People go to prison for such "pranks." It is unfortunate that such behavior from the president of such an institution in that place and time is all too believable.

Ray was citing information provided by John Shipmann, a student at NM Tech starting in 1966. Shipmann did a series of essays in the student newspaper in the 1980s, and the items about Colgate Ray cites are from this essay, reprinted on Shipmann's webpage:

http://infohost.nmt.edu/~shipman/write/uproar.html

It should be pointed out that since the uproar about Colgate and Socorro began, Shipman notes that Colgate contacted him and totally denies the story about tying down the steam relief valve. Instead, he says, he bypassed the thermostat control to heat the pool. Shipman says he must have misremembered Colgate's recruiting speech at his high school--could very well be. The original story did seem a bit suspect.

The story about Colgate calling their smoke ring generator with a hundred foot plastic tube PBC, for Paul Bunyon's Condom, seems pretty innocuous. A little risque perhaps, but not much.

However, the story that does creep me out, which Shipman hasn't retracted, is the following: "With a male-female ratio of six to one, there was a lot of complaining about the lack of social life (read: sex). One night at the Capitol my friend Speckled Trout and I listened raptly as Colgate described his plan for a student-run bordello. He had all the logistics figured out. The Student Council would rent a house within walking distance of campus, and hire two female students. The charge would be ten bucks a throw, with a small rake-off to pay off the authorities and the rest split fifty-fifty with the Student Council. Was he serious? I'll never know."

If he was serious, he was proposing criminal activity, prostitution and bribery of officials to look the other way. If he wasn't serious, he is indeed an asshole and a creep. I might expect pimply-faced college freshmen in the dorm to joke that way, but the college president? At best, he has an extremely strange sense of humor that does call into question his character (again assuming the story is true).

It's also interesting that Colgate was claiming the sighting was a hoax immediately after it happened.

This was the most relevant thing about Colgate directly related to Socorro. Also relevant is that Colgate (according to Ray) didn't say he actually knew it was a hoax, but only suspected it, because he knew that aliens visiting Earth was impossible. Further, he believed that only Tech students would be smart enough to pull it off. So again, no real knowledge, just opinions based on personal prejudice.

Of course any number of "officials" investigating the episode would have loved to have such a convenient explanation handed to them, and the fact that no one gave it any credence at the time tells us all we need to know about Bragalia's claim. As if we needed it. The idea of people like Hynek, Air Force officers, state police officers, the press, and any number of others somehow missing any evidence of a hoax is laughable. Anyone who has spent ten minutes in the desert knows there would be footprints everywhere. For weeks.

And why does anyone still talk about tests of Surveyor or the LEM? That is absurd in so many ways. The only testing of the LEM was done on the "Flying Bedstead," a malevolent contraption designed to give the astronauts some experience with the control behavior. It had zero range, and looked anything but egg shaped. The actual LEM was designed to *just barely* fly in 1/6 Earth's gravity and no atmosphere, so of course it could not be test flown on Earth.

Anyway, as many have said before, you have to assume Zamorra was an idiot, Hynek a fool, and a dozen other people were all drunk and delusional for any of Bragalia's nonsense to even begin to look plausible.

The part that pisses me off about this whole idiotic affair is the fact that people who don't know any of the facts will seize the "hoax explanation" uncritically and write off an event that remains a mystery. It's not hard to imagine that is the whole purpose of this charade.

I agree 100% with everything said here. "Solutions" like the lunar Surveyor or LEM or the "Flying Bedstead" are all complete nonsense. More problems with this baloney: not a single LEM had even been built yet, the only practice Bedstead was over at Edwards AFB a good 800 miles away, flew on a tether, and wasn't operational at the time anyway, and on and on.

It was really quite impossible for anybody to hoax the object Zamora observed or the physical evidence left behind that confirmed many aspects of Zamora's story. There were other witnesses as well. Nearly all would have to be liars, and as Hynek pointed out, Zamora, the Socorro police department, and the FBI would all have to be in on the hoax to make it work. The police and FBI combed the area immediately afterward looking for any evidence of a hoax, such as footprints of hoaxers or necessary equipment to pull it off, and never found a thing. If there was such evidence, they would have had to conceal it. Zamora would have had to lie about what he observed, and again, on and on.

These hoaxing scenarios were considered so near impossible, that even the debunking Air Force would or could not label it a hoax.

All this points to Colgate making up the whole hoax claim. There are some good things to mention about Colgate in his fields of actual expertise. In his nuclear monitoring activities for the AEC, he was asked to look into nuclear explosions in space. He discovered that a supernova explosion might be misconstrued as a nuclear attack by satellite sensors and trigger a nuclear war. Glad somebody caught that one. Hopefully the problem has since been rectified.

This led Colgate to explore what causes stars to explode in the first place, and came up with one of the early theoretical explanations of supernova. This turned out to be incomplete, but is incorporated into current more complete explanations.

David Rudiak
 
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