Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
According to her they weren't real religious until the "demons" came into their lives. Or they came into the "demons" life.
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Sept. 21st - Lisa Lindley
- Thread starter Gareth
- Start date
According to her they weren't real religious until the "demons" came into their lives. Or they came into the "demons" life.
Rocketsauce
Haagen-Dazs Addict
Yeah, i think we can all agree there isn't much support in the scripture regarding guardian angels coming down and dousing people with light and love via new age convention and saving them. They typically are involved in testing people or as messengers on behalf of the big Man. In the old testament I also don't recall any talk of hell or demons, when is this brought up the most? New testament Revelations? When Mary Magdalene is helped by Jesus or is this more of a mid-evil thing? I remember thinking the whole concept of hell was not nearly as prevalent in the scripture as fundamentalists would have you think.
Strangely, I was a religion major in college (although I was never very religious, I was raised non practicing Jewish) and I was more the guy in the back of the class room playing the role David kind of plays on the Paracast, I've since forgotten much of what I learned
One of my main papers was on how a lot of the bible was people misinterpreting natural phenomena as being divine. However, at this point I must say after getting more into the paranormal and learning a little more about ancient history, I've come a semi circle around (not full circle!) and now think the scriptures while maybe not completely literally accurate, I do think much of the material is based on real events and people, I dont' think the stuff is just made up or totally off, if they were capable of building pyramids, writing, measuring seasons, farming,sailing the ocean etc.... people certainly weren't stupid thousands of years ago so I now think ancient books have a lot more value in providing clues to our past than I once did and could potentially contain info regarding the UFO phenomena, which of course would be nearly impossible to substantiate.
Mothra
Oh, I see what you did there
Lance - When I was 17 years old I ( And my cat) had a similar experience that lasted close to 6 hours. There were subsequent confrontations, but nothing like the initial attack or ambush, because that's what it was. There are no words to describe what it is like to interact physically with something you cannot see. No way to relate the story without people saying your nuts, on drugs or looking for attention. I've spent the rest of my life trying to figure out what happened and now at 43 i'm no closer to the truth.
In my case, I didn't see anything manifest, but whatever it was affected my physical reality and the laws of physics as we know it. Things didn't move, they would bend. It affected all of my senses.
I believe something happened to this family but I am bothered by a couple things.
one - I am pretty sure that while they were searching for answers they came across a fundamentalist pastor or parishioner that filled their heads with all sorts of talk of witchery, and Zombies. They essentially latched onto this to come to terms with what was happening and instantly had a whole room of people validating them and their experience.
Two - She talked about not wanting to go to a shrink because she didn't want to divulge personal info and put herself and her family out there. It didn't stop her however from writing 4 books about the subject.
Three - When David was debunking her orb story she was pushing back because all of the people in her circle were telling her its the boogey man, and David is saying its shiny dirt. She then starts thinking well maybe all of the other stuff can be debunked and we really are nuts. Its unfortunate that they have involved fundamentalist religion in all of this, because now not only are they dealing with continued harassment, but they are now dealing with it blind.
That feeling of "god " and "jesus" the husband felt was a chemical being released from the brain to keep you from going batshit crazy when things are happening that you don't understand or comprehend. I know this because I expireienced the same thing in my ordel. I didn't fall on my knees and start praying and asking for help, I jumped up, put my fist though the hallway wall and yelled come get me motherfucker. 10 minutes later it was over with. I was sick for almost a week because of all the adreniline.
Anyways, when things happen, people always feel the need to run and catorigize it. I don't understand it, so it must be the battle between god and satan in my husbands den. My little snowflake is perdect so it must be the darkside of the force staring at my kid while she sleeps, and not a shadow caused by a passing car or a trick of light.
She even used the hollywood cartoon Satanic imagery as a reverence. Evil isn't scarry pictures or symbols.
Its hidden, patient and completly Human.
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
In all fairness, you appear to sticking to the "standard" books of the Bible, and I was busting out the Apocrypha and bunches of Gnostic and Muslim sources. The Bible itself is kind of limited on direct information about angels, and only Gabriel and Michael are named. You have to go to the other books to find out more names and castes and so forth.
There are four archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raffael. Lucifer may or many not have been a fifth, or he may have been a singular being like Metatron.
These angels stretch across Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and (I think, I'll look into it) Mithrianism.
The angel of death is harder to pin down. Some writings say Michael is the good angel of death, and Samael is the bad angel of death. Some say it's Gabriel. Maybe it's not really a full time job, but a role angels are called upon from time to time to fill.
This is the kind of stuff that New Age "Angeloligists" should know. Angels were never intended to be worshiped as gods themselves, or treated, as they are today, as personal or house gods/tutilary spirits.
There are four archangels, Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raffael. Lucifer may or many not have been a fifth, or he may have been a singular being like Metatron.
These angels stretch across Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and (I think, I'll look into it) Mithrianism.
The angel of death is harder to pin down. Some writings say Michael is the good angel of death, and Samael is the bad angel of death. Some say it's Gabriel. Maybe it's not really a full time job, but a role angels are called upon from time to time to fill.
This is the kind of stuff that New Age "Angeloligists" should know. Angels were never intended to be worshiped as gods themselves, or treated, as they are today, as personal or house gods/tutilary spirits.
Mogwa
Skilled Investigator
While I dislike offering an opinion with so little information available, this seems like just another pubescent female/poltergeist case. The girl was always the central vector of activity and no one else was able to perceive what she was seeing or hearing. The one exception was the mother observing the hooded figure standing over the sleeping girl's bed, which might be better explained as the result of a highly suggestive mental state combined with extreme emotional stress.
Calling the family's experience a "demonic oppression" does nothing to explain what was happening. The terms demon and demonic have been so abused that they have lost almost all meaning. I'm also puzzled why these demonic entities, who in Christian theology are supposed to be fallen angels, engage in such mindless, trivial pranks when they're supposed to have sufficient power to destroy an entire city in the blink of an eye. If they really wanted to terrorize humanity, why not melt New York instead of pestering a teenager?
7 String
All things 7
"Like oh my god, this show was like totally on and stuff". LOL,,,sorry I humbly remove my dick hat now. But seriously Lisa, was like totally sincere,,,lol oops did it again......
Interesting interview not at all what I was expecting. My first thoughts hinge on naivety and aloofness to the matter at hand. Granted someone may just call out biblical references if they really have nothing else to call it or no foundation upon which to help understand what is going on. However like Gene pointed out, it sounds like she had made up her mind on what is going on, but that not my call. Whatever helps you get through it. There are those that have from there earliest years subscribe to "christ religion" and those who were not. Those who have well you know have objectivity based on years of practice ( I'll leave that at that ). Then you have those like Lisa who apparently had no religious foundation until these events unfolded. What you get is alot of answer seeking through reading and free advice from others. This can sometimes give you a ummm well rounded if sometimes quick to the chase answer. Again I don't fault her or her family holy shit something crazy is going on and they needed to turn to something or go crazy.
I seemed that she took offense to Davids suggestion on a psychological evaluation on her daughter. I think she took it as David was attacking her and trying explain what is going on by stating it's all in her daughters head. My way of looking at it would be get her looked at and get a base line and find out what is going on. If there is something going on they may find it and something then can be done. If they find nothing then well you then know she ain't nuts. If all these things are going on this poor little girl is going to have some issues regardless of how well balanced she is, one day down the line it all going to come out. Trust me, the longer they wait the worse it will get if help is needed.
I can ( totally ) relate to her story base on what has gone on with myself for years. My attached spirit however has been kept at bay and is pretty much just mischievous. However as of late we do have something else lurking about our place and both of our boys have scene it and they both say "it ain't horatio". Another story for another time.
At first I thought I would hate this episode then I thought I would "like totally be blown away". Then I realized that there were many truths in there that brought back alot memories from my past that I had forgotten all about. Great show! And my thoughts and prayers go out to Lisa and her family, I truly hope they find peace.
~A
Interesting interview not at all what I was expecting. My first thoughts hinge on naivety and aloofness to the matter at hand. Granted someone may just call out biblical references if they really have nothing else to call it or no foundation upon which to help understand what is going on. However like Gene pointed out, it sounds like she had made up her mind on what is going on, but that not my call. Whatever helps you get through it. There are those that have from there earliest years subscribe to "christ religion" and those who were not. Those who have well you know have objectivity based on years of practice ( I'll leave that at that ). Then you have those like Lisa who apparently had no religious foundation until these events unfolded. What you get is alot of answer seeking through reading and free advice from others. This can sometimes give you a ummm well rounded if sometimes quick to the chase answer. Again I don't fault her or her family holy shit something crazy is going on and they needed to turn to something or go crazy.
I seemed that she took offense to Davids suggestion on a psychological evaluation on her daughter. I think she took it as David was attacking her and trying explain what is going on by stating it's all in her daughters head. My way of looking at it would be get her looked at and get a base line and find out what is going on. If there is something going on they may find it and something then can be done. If they find nothing then well you then know she ain't nuts. If all these things are going on this poor little girl is going to have some issues regardless of how well balanced she is, one day down the line it all going to come out. Trust me, the longer they wait the worse it will get if help is needed.
I can ( totally ) relate to her story base on what has gone on with myself for years. My attached spirit however has been kept at bay and is pretty much just mischievous. However as of late we do have something else lurking about our place and both of our boys have scene it and they both say "it ain't horatio". Another story for another time.
At first I thought I would hate this episode then I thought I would "like totally be blown away". Then I realized that there were many truths in there that brought back alot memories from my past that I had forgotten all about. Great show! And my thoughts and prayers go out to Lisa and her family, I truly hope they find peace.
~A
CapnG
Devil's Advocate
Indeed. Hell is an almost entirely Catholic invention, no such concept exists in the purely Hebrew text to my knowledge (the Talmud may have some but I'm not sure). In the old testament, God doesn't need some two-bit imitation to do his evilling for him, he's very hands-on!
I saw a documentary on PBS a couple months ago tracking the evolution of the concept of hell and Satan all the way from Arhiman of Summerian myth to Anton LeVay and the Church of Satan today. Fascinating stuff. Bottom line: we made it up.
No, I'm taking the apochrypha into acount (although I am admittedly less familiar with it/them. Gnostic and Muslim sources even less so) but I'm also considering that most people don't even know they EXIST. As you pointed out however, this topic starts to get wrapped up in new agey, neo-gnostic nonsense pretty quickly and I'd like to avoid that...
cmbezln
Skilled Investigator
oh man, i was just....cringing that whole show
that poor kid, man.....obviously is experiencing something, and then having her religious nutcase mom cementing it in her head " demons and angels and holy wars" and shit.....my god
she believes what she says (lisa), but she is obviously just not the brightest bulb in the batch and is making the situation worse for her daughter...
she's obviously not open to any kind of rational reaction to her situation and has it all figured out through her seemingly devoid knowledge of human conditioning and psychology.
i dont want to go on a anti-religion rant here, but this interview warrants it 100%
that poor kid, man.....obviously is experiencing something, and then having her religious nutcase mom cementing it in her head " demons and angels and holy wars" and shit.....my god
she believes what she says (lisa), but she is obviously just not the brightest bulb in the batch and is making the situation worse for her daughter...
she's obviously not open to any kind of rational reaction to her situation and has it all figured out through her seemingly devoid knowledge of human conditioning and psychology.
i dont want to go on a anti-religion rant here, but this interview warrants it 100%
cmbezln
Skilled Investigator
i think these keywords from her 'never alone' book on lulu.com about sum it up
Keywords:
Keywords:
cmbezln
Skilled Investigator
Hoffmeister
There is no spoon
Ok, so i've only had time to listen to about 30 minutes of this podcast so far and I spent most of it banging my head against a wall.
Firstly her story is riddled with contradictions. I cant remember all of them (there were so many in just 30 minutes) but for example when Gene asked if she had an interest in ghosts etc before this happened she said yes definately and that her an her husband were really into that sort of thing.
Then later on when Gene was asking her questions (and she was buckling under them) he asked her why they didnt just cut their losses and move out of the haunted house. She replied that her husband was a big skeptic so they didnt think to move.
Later he asked her if she told her neighbour about the ghosts when she sold them the house and she said mumbled about for a bit then said no because she didnt want her neighbour to think she was some ghost nut. Yet she then goes on to publish a book and go on the radio about it?! surely doing that risks people thinking that she is a ghost nut.
She seemed to remember every detail clearly except when she was asked a difficult question like how did the girl that called get her number... "oh it ws 5 years ago".
Added to this the way she spoke is typical of someone who is making things up... talking in long sentences then adding more and more onto the end of the sentence so it sounds like they don't stop talking.
Finally, one of the first questions Gene and David tend to ask guests is whether they were in to the topic before they had their experiences. If they were, it doesnt neccesarily mean they are lying but combined with all these other things (selling boooks etc) I think it lends its weight to it.
I can't say for sure that she is making most of this up or imagining it... but if I could bet all the money I had on it... I would...
Firstly her story is riddled with contradictions. I cant remember all of them (there were so many in just 30 minutes) but for example when Gene asked if she had an interest in ghosts etc before this happened she said yes definately and that her an her husband were really into that sort of thing.
Then later on when Gene was asking her questions (and she was buckling under them) he asked her why they didnt just cut their losses and move out of the haunted house. She replied that her husband was a big skeptic so they didnt think to move.
Later he asked her if she told her neighbour about the ghosts when she sold them the house and she said mumbled about for a bit then said no because she didnt want her neighbour to think she was some ghost nut. Yet she then goes on to publish a book and go on the radio about it?! surely doing that risks people thinking that she is a ghost nut.
She seemed to remember every detail clearly except when she was asked a difficult question like how did the girl that called get her number... "oh it ws 5 years ago".
Added to this the way she spoke is typical of someone who is making things up... talking in long sentences then adding more and more onto the end of the sentence so it sounds like they don't stop talking.
Finally, one of the first questions Gene and David tend to ask guests is whether they were in to the topic before they had their experiences. If they were, it doesnt neccesarily mean they are lying but combined with all these other things (selling boooks etc) I think it lends its weight to it.
I can't say for sure that she is making most of this up or imagining it... but if I could bet all the money I had on it... I would...
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
I have the same problem with her story too. I aint saying story's like that
dont happen. . My serious worry here is the lack of parent care on the
part of the mother.What parent leaves there Daughter within a room that
has a presence of a entity.That seems unrealistic to me. It shows a women that is not in touch with her feelings and her emotions.
I have other reasons to doubt the story. I posted that on this thread already.
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
I suppose they do, don't they.
As regards to hell, wasn't there a mention in the New Testament about evil people getting thrown into a lake of fire? It also seems to me that I remember Gehenna, another name later adopted for hell, was the place near Jerusalem where they would go to burn their trash, thus leading to the fiery pit analogy. I guess my point is that hell wasn't a wholecloth invention of by the early church, that there was a smattering of Biblical foundation for it. Unlike, say, Purgatory, which was invented.
I should find out more what Judaism says about the afterlife. I have to admit, I'm not up to speed on that anymore. I remember a lot about what Medieval Jews believed, but I'm sure that's only a small part of the picture.
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G
glenn40
Guest
As I listened to the questions Gene and David were asking my own perception led to form my opinion that she is not on the level.
Then the tells I comprehend from GS and DB are my second things i look for to confirm how I am forming the credibility of this author. I feel the strongest thing to me is that if she was worth trying to learn more about is the lack of desire to read this book. Not worth it for them to read it or the expense.
The questioning was strong and extremely conducive to bringing out the authors tells that make me believe she is fabricating the story to a degree I cannot accurately judge. When David brought up what the meaning of a 20th century soldier apparition the daughter saw. That strongly suggests to me that this is due to some sort of dream recollection leading to this evidence of paranormal activity.
great work. I appreciate through the interview and questioning I feel I can go with my first instinct about my perception of the truthfulness and validity of the happenings described. I don't believe her and think this is monetarily driven pursuit. I have a feeling for my non interest ever buying that book there are most likely 3 or 4 people who didn't listen to the paracast interview and will buy that book.
thanks for the shows
glenn
Then the tells I comprehend from GS and DB are my second things i look for to confirm how I am forming the credibility of this author. I feel the strongest thing to me is that if she was worth trying to learn more about is the lack of desire to read this book. Not worth it for them to read it or the expense.
The questioning was strong and extremely conducive to bringing out the authors tells that make me believe she is fabricating the story to a degree I cannot accurately judge. When David brought up what the meaning of a 20th century soldier apparition the daughter saw. That strongly suggests to me that this is due to some sort of dream recollection leading to this evidence of paranormal activity.
great work. I appreciate through the interview and questioning I feel I can go with my first instinct about my perception of the truthfulness and validity of the happenings described. I don't believe her and think this is monetarily driven pursuit. I have a feeling for my non interest ever buying that book there are most likely 3 or 4 people who didn't listen to the paracast interview and will buy that book.
thanks for the shows
glenn
With regards to angels and demons.
Relying solely on the Old Testament one can't come to the conclusion that demons are angels if reading accurately. The stuff about Lucifer is talking about a king. Any strong religious scholar will tell you Satan in Judaism works for God. He's there to test faith etc.
The role of angels; looking at it honestly throughout the Bible is as David said primarily to be a dishing out of punishment/revenge.. There are definitely those who sometimes help however.
Ultimately I dont' think it matters. There's too many sides to the paranormal to say it's all angels and demons. And just going by the Bible even if taking everything very literally we really don't know what an angel or demon even is. Saying one is a servant of God and one isn't, that tells us very little of how they actually live or if they are 100% mindless drones.. They might have their own cultures, technologies, races, species etc.
Relying solely on the Old Testament one can't come to the conclusion that demons are angels if reading accurately. The stuff about Lucifer is talking about a king. Any strong religious scholar will tell you Satan in Judaism works for God. He's there to test faith etc.
The role of angels; looking at it honestly throughout the Bible is as David said primarily to be a dishing out of punishment/revenge.. There are definitely those who sometimes help however.
Ultimately I dont' think it matters. There's too many sides to the paranormal to say it's all angels and demons. And just going by the Bible even if taking everything very literally we really don't know what an angel or demon even is. Saying one is a servant of God and one isn't, that tells us very little of how they actually live or if they are 100% mindless drones.. They might have their own cultures, technologies, races, species etc.
Rocketsauce
Haagen-Dazs Addict
I believe the focus on the Old Testament and actually in Judaism in general is mostly on 'this' life.
In the actual OT there is not much written about the afterlife. I bet in some of the Rabbinical texts they may cover the afterlife more but I never read or studied these.
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
I need to find a Rabbi and ask lots of questions. Despite my degree (Medieval history) and research into Judaism in England at the time, I'm too darn uninformed.
While it is true that angels are broken into castes, it is also true that some angels, such as the archangels, each have membership in multiple castes, so it's not a closed system.
The same schools of thought that broke the angels into castes also divided heaven into multiple realms and assigned different attributes to different regions, as if it were a country you visit with varied cities and geography. This has been pushed aside by most modern theology as archaic thought, so it's surprising the angel's caste system has hung on too.
In the book of Mary Magdeline, angels are given an alternate ranking system, one more in line with much gnostic thinking. Gnosticim has gotten a bad rap, because largely history has been written by non-gnostics, but there is much to learn there, and it an older tradition than Catholicism. (By "tradition", I am more or less lumping Gnostic thought together, but this is more a convienience than an actuality.)
While it is true that angels are broken into castes, it is also true that some angels, such as the archangels, each have membership in multiple castes, so it's not a closed system.
The same schools of thought that broke the angels into castes also divided heaven into multiple realms and assigned different attributes to different regions, as if it were a country you visit with varied cities and geography. This has been pushed aside by most modern theology as archaic thought, so it's surprising the angel's caste system has hung on too.
In the book of Mary Magdeline, angels are given an alternate ranking system, one more in line with much gnostic thinking. Gnosticim has gotten a bad rap, because largely history has been written by non-gnostics, but there is much to learn there, and it an older tradition than Catholicism. (By "tradition", I am more or less lumping Gnostic thought together, but this is more a convienience than an actuality.)
Graphimancer
Skilled Investigator
Jeremy, I live in Indiana--I'm surrounded by these people! No wonder I rarely leave my house!
CapnG
Devil's Advocate
That's in Revalations, every evangelicals favourite book because you can literally read ANYTHING you want into it. ANYTHING.
Correct.
I don't know that I'd go that far, I mean it's a pretty flimsy foundation. The lake of fire in revelations is an above ground thing, not subterranian. Almost all of it seems to come from a mix of the Gehenna concept and the Greek Tartarus concept.
On a seperate note, Puragatory was recently dismissed I heard. Dead babies now go directly to heaven.