Reframing the Debate: A Path Forward or Backward?

[mike]

I'm always amused at the conversation about UFOs veering into what a pile of shit humanity is, assuming the ETs are oh so beyond us in every way, especially morally and ethically, etc. LOL

LOL, You don't need a conversation about UFO's to go there. Navel gazing can give the same result. Not sure we know enough about the ET's to form a valid hypothesis on their morals ethics etc, though we might make some speculation.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

Yes and what happens if science cannot find the answers?

Science has successfully explained about 99.99% of our observations to date, so I'm confident that it will one day soon explain 99.999% of all our observations, and so-on, ad infinitum into the future.

In fact we can confidently state it even more persuasively: the scientific method has been the only reliable and consistently successful approach to understanding any of our observations of physical reality. Mythologies and religions attempted to explain our reality prior to the empirical method, which is why we stumbled around in dung heaps and wooden carriages for several millennia before we got hip to the power of analytical reasoning united with precision observations. If it can we witnessed, it can be scientifically explained, and eventually even exploited - we just have to do the work that entails.

Earlier Burnt objected to the idea that we can actually scientifically observe a random event in our skies, but that's a silly objection, and one that I've already answered in the ETH thread (and honestly I'm getting a little tired of answering the same objections after I've refuted them - this is starting to feel like an endlessly repeating game of Whac-A-Mole). We've explained all kinds of random events in the sky; lightning, meteors, supernovae, ball lightning, and now even gravitational waves. And we have over 50 years of radar data from the Air Force Space Surveillance System that covered the nation from California to Georgia 24/7 and reached 15,000 nautical miles into space, which could detect any object larger than a basketball. And Peter Davenport's passive radar net idea would be even better - allowing us to also detect stealth aircraft, and even generate 3D profiles of any object in the covered airspace. A system of that nature, coordinated with dedicated fast-response jet interceptors, and linked to a mobile app, would give us the capability of getting multiple and independent observational technology on any object of interest. So it's perfectly possible to get all the data we'd ever need to get to the bottom of this; we simply haven't had the political influence required to make it happen. But I think that Chris' San Luis Valley projects could change that virtually overnight, or perhaps even single-handedly get us all of the hard data that we need to explain this phenomenon, so my hopes are with his efforts.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

If they enjoy torturing us so much why bother to visit extra following mass murder? Why not sir back and wait for us to finish ourselves off? Technically we're less violent now than we were before ....why have extra interest?

Perhaps because A.) nuclear detonations generate vastly more intense and distinctive electromagnetic signals that could easily be detected many light-years away, and B.) the use of such a weapon would be a clear signal that the natives of this planet were a rapidly emerging threat and perfectly willing to incinerate each other en masse - so we'd certainly be willing to incinerate an alien species en masse. Only an incredibly reckless alien would overlook such issues, I would think.

And ufology has had very distinct waves and patterns in terms of styles of ships over the last 120 years, and there are many exceptions to the rules as well as different patterns regionally. There's nothing homogenous about it. You seem to want to force a version of events onto the phenomenon that simply does not exist. Airships, saucers, rivets, glass, spiderwebs, insectoid, ghost rockets, rocket ships, wings, triangles, spheres, tanks, flying hotels, planks, diamonds, balls of light, shifting molten material, foo fighters, size changing, shape shifting, duplicating ghosts and on and on the list goes. And of course Wonders in the Sky tells us the phenomenon is significantly older. You are forcing a narrative on top of it that is simply not true.

Nah - silent (or nearly silent, anyway) reactionless/emissionless hovering and extreme/unearthly accelerations have always been a common feature of the ufo phenomenon - this suggests that various and sundry anomalous devices in our airspace are exploiting the same underlying propulsion principle. Look at it the other way: the obvious commonality between helicopter and airplane and rocket "sightings" is high winds and noise and arcing/banking relatively slow accelerations. That points to a common propulsion principle - reaction propulsion. Similarly, nearly all credible and genuinely anomalous ufo sightings entail a very different but consistent spectrum of performance characteristics, ergo, they're using the field propulsion principle instead of the reaction propulsion principle. And frankly I think that the term "airship" was only used in the 19th Century because that was the only word they had for something that looked like a craft in the air - I don't think they were seeing actual blimps; though I suppose a few actual blimps may have been tested in secret military programs before the public learned about that technology.

And your weird unparsed list is meaningless - why are you including spiderwebs and glass and rivets and ghosts and rockets etc all in the same list with genuine unexplained aerial devices of unknown origin? Nobody's talking about mundane misidentifications here. As for the rest, I've already stated about a zillion times that the ETH doesn't profess to explain all visual anomalies, only the physical devices that can fly circles around our aircraft and missiles.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Still open minded to both ( nuts and bolts technology and mutiulation ETH/David Paulidies strange events ) element in some cases such as in the ghost/force (unkown) interactions which seems to shows signs of intelligent activity. Also intrestng deveopments in advancement in medical studies researchhttp://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2017/614526/EPRS_ATA(2017)614526_EN.pdf

 

[wwkirk]

Perhaps because A.) nuclear detonations generate vastly more intense and distinctive electromagnetic signals that could easily be detected many light-years away, and B.) the use of such a weapon would be a clear signal that the natives of this planet were a rapidly emerging threat and perfectly willing to incinerate each other en masse - so we'd certainly be willing to incinerate an alien species en masse. Only an incredibly reckless alien would overlook such issues, I would think.

The nearest star is several light years away, and does not seem to be inhabited. So, it would take many years before aliens would be able to detect nuclear explosions on earth.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

The nearest star is several light years away, and does not seem to be inhabited. So, it would take many years before aliens would be able to detect nuclear explosions on earth.

Why are you assuming that interstellar-spaceflight-capable civilizations that possess, by all outward indications, a spacetime engineering technology like gravitational field propulsion, wouldn't already be in space - flitting about our interstellar neighborhood with some regularity, deploying communications relays near promising living planets like ours, etc.? If they do have metric propulsion, which is certainly what it seems to be, a probe could physically convey information to neighboring star systems much faster than the speed of light.

Here's one possibility that we've already theoretically modeled, and which uses the same spacetime engineering approach that gravitational field propulsion employs: wormholes. A civilization would only have to leave a device that generates a very tiny wormhole near or within our solar system as a communications relay station, with the other end wherever they wanted anywhere in the universe. Photons would instantaneously pass through it, allowing real-time monitoring of our stellar vicinity. This way an advanced civilization halfway across the universe could keep tabs on us with no significant light propagation time delay.

Based on what we've learned in recent years, my default assumption is that our solar system is like a mote of dust floating around Madison Avenue during rush hour traffic - we may still be basically oblivious to the hustle and bustle just beyond our solar system and throughout the galaxy in general, but I don't see any reason to assume that they're just as oblivious to our existence. They've probably known that our nuclear era was coming long before we did.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Thomas,
What's the possibility of energy to manipulate a aircraft carrier engines ? Moreover, what force could be used to slow down a modern fighter and still keep the aircraft from falling (not a jump harrier type engine either)?

 

[marduk]

The nearest star is several light years away, and does not seem to be inhabited. So, it would take many years before aliens would be able to detect nuclear explosions on earth.

I envision a different scenario.

Let's say a post-biological species seeded self-replicating artificially intelligent probes throughout the local universe, including our solar system.

They could sit there and just monitor things every once in a while. Maybe hibernate for long periods, and wake up when something interesting happend.

They could have checked in on us once every few thousand years for the first 100,000 years we existed. I mean, not much changed as far as hunter-gatherer humans go for literally tens of thousands of years at a stretch. So every few millennia, wake up, replicate a saucer or disc, send it down to earth, replicate some bipedal bilaterally symmetrical avatars to interface with us, then disassemble them and go back to sleep.

Then a nuke goes off. The whole system wakes up, replicates a bunch of objects and avatars to see WTF is going on... then determines we're pretty boring and goes back to sleep on and off for months or years at a stretch. Etc.

Maybe send a probe or a tight beam laser transmission back home every once in a while to report back.

That could explain a lot.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I envision a different scenario. Let's say a post-biological species seeded self-replicating artificially intelligent probes throughout the local universe, including our solar system.

Has a definite ring to it, good post!

 

[Burnt State]

Let's say a post-biological species seeded self-replicating artificially intelligent probes throughout the local universe, including our solar system.

They could sit there and just monitor things every once in a while. Maybe hibernate for long periods, and wake up when something interesting happend

Or maybe they complete these ongoing experiments where using their probe technology they appear to hang around in the skies in the shape of alien craft, zap about the fields, maybe touch down every now and then emerge out of ships looking like Reptilians or Nordic people, maybe hold some magic wands and zap unsuspecting people - it is Vallee's control system.

 

[marduk]

Or maybe they complete these ongoing experiments where using their probe technology they appear to hang around in the skies in the shape of alien craft, zap about the fields, maybe touch down every now and then emerge out of ships looking like Reptilians or Nordic people, maybe hold some magic wands and zap unsuspecting people - it is Vallee's control system.

Maybe they’re game show hosts on somebody’s version of “punked.”

 

[Burnt State]

Maybe they’re game show hosts on somebody’s version of “punked.”

Well for me that's where the sense of theatre comes in. It feels too scripted. It repeats...same setting. Same weird actions.

 

[William Strathmann]

Well for me that's where the sense of theatre comes in. It feels too scripted. It repeats...same setting. Same weird actions.

"The Human Show"

similar to

"The Truman Show"

 

[Trajanus]

The issue is just how many samples have been collected in crude and silly ways up against Sagan's notion that you might need to zap a sample every two or three thousand years as opposed to every few months or so.

Every few months may be necessary in view of anthropogenic alteration of the environment.

The very notion of an advanced space faring technological society needing to send a ship down with a bunch of robots or bio forms like they're on a field trip is ridiculous to say the least.

Our astronauts collected lunar samples, while Viking 1 and 2, Sprit and Opportunity analyzed Martian ones.

So much of what takes place during close encounter cases is patently non-sensical and appears to be a show being put on for the witness's benefit.

Of course, deliberate deception, in some cases.

So it's not about elegance so much as common sense. If you need to collect info and you've got advanced tech capacity why even bother landing on the planet to add to the theatricality of our lives? Just beam that shit up Scotty.

Beam the stuff up from where, 100 LY away? Or 3,000 miles? I don't know if that's feasible for any civilization.

Similarly some of the failed abduction events such as Cisco Grove and Dechmont woods also beg the question of why send incompetent robots out to collect life form samples from Earth? I mean how do you come all this way across the Galaxy but you can't successfully get a human out of a tree

Do we know that was their purpose? They may have been just testing human ingenuity or strength in fighting back.

 

[marduk]

Well for me that's where the sense of theatre comes in. It feels too scripted. It repeats...same setting. Same weird actions.

Just like bitcoin farming.

Economics have funny consequences.

 

[marduk]

Every few months may be necessary in view of anthropogenic alteration of the environment.



Our astronauts collected lunar samples, while Viking 1 and 2, Sprit and Opportunity analyzed Martian ones.



Of course, deliberate deception, in some cases.



Beam the stuff up from where, 100 LY away? Or 3,000 miles? I don't know if that's feasible for any civilization.



Do we know that was their purpose? They may have been just testing human ingenuity or strength in fighting back.

Hell, they may just be grabbing some flowers and dirt for the missus when they get back home.

 

[Burnt State]

Just like bitcoin farming.

Economics have funny consequences.

I find it curious this notion that economics as the driver as opposed to information. But either way, if we use us as a technological model, we take samples with great infrequency and we talk about mining robotically. The actual appearance of Humanoids engaged in this low level exercise does seem theatrical at best and seems like a show put on for our benefit. Many of the activities appear to directly follow our own patterns of investigation in very rudimentary manners. It makes me wonder how much of it is about observations of what we get up to and just playing that back for our benefit vs. how much comes from us and our own projections onto actions that may not be clearly visible to us for other reasons tied to a state of consciousness. Either way, what we see seems to be very concerned with us or that we are somehow a source or origin for what gets witnessed in these cases.

Out gathering of information of the known universe is done very remotely and rarely involves us getting up close and personal with our subject matter.

Question: if there was an economic motivation, and given the countless visits in the millions, why do you think we have yet to see any true concentrated, systematic economic extraction of any one single resource from our planet, be it water, souls or minerals? Given the powers they have demonstrated to date, that looks like the capacity for total control over us, why do we not have any real evidence of this?

None of our human trajectories have been interested in any serious way and that includes the total extermination of life forms and our environment. They are indifferent observers at best.

 

[marduk]

I find it curious this notion that economics as the driver as opposed to information.

I use that notion because it's what humans have used since we invented civilization.

The most powerful, unifying, and driving force for humans is money.

We do science for money. We do sex for money. We can convert lead to gold with money. We can convert anything to anything else with money. Anything humans do, you can get done with money.

Social groups that hate each other happily use the same money.

When we go into space en masse, it will be for money.

Why do we think they're scientists at all? We're not. We use science as a tool for money.

And money is just a proxy for economics. That is the single most powerful thing that allows humanity to cooperate as groups. Not science, not religion, not politics, not food, not shelter... economics.

Question: if there was an economic motivation, and given the countless visits in the millions, why do you think we have yet to see any true concentrated, systematic economic extraction of any one single resource from our planet, be it water, souls or minerals? Given the powers they have demonstrated to date, that looks like the capacity for total control over us, why do we not have any real evidence of this?

It's interesting that the same thing that has us mystified as to why they're here - they come to often and do silly things from a scientific perspective - is exactly the kind of behaviour we'd expect if they were here for economic motivations that we cannot understand. Like bitcoin farming, mining gold, having > 10% of humans exist to service money, etc. We don't make sense from a scientific perspective, but we do make sense from an economic perspective.

Which is a collective imaginary invention of the human mind. What their mind came up with, who knows?

I think we are seeing economic exploitation. We just don't know what they're exploiting. If they're post-scarcity, it might not be natural resources at all. It may not be anything we understand as an economic resource at all.

They may be here for their version of bitcoin farming.

None of our human trajectories have been interested in any serious way and that includes the total extermination of life forms and our environment. They are indifferent observers at best.

I agree - I think we're secondary at best in their motivations. Mostly, they don't seem to give a shit about us, except to run away when we chase them, and wake us up occasionally in the middle of the night.

 

[Thomas R Morrison]

The issue is just how many samples have been collected

You've raised this objection many times, but when I think about it, I can't recall any specific cases where soil or plant samples have been collected, can you? I can recall some cases where a device has landed and left landing pad impressions, and I can recall a few cases where trace residue evidence was left behind, but I can't recall any cases where we've found a lump of soil missing. I'm not saying that it hasn't happened; it's been ages since I've pored over case reports, but you seem to think that millions of cases involve soil/plant samples being collected, and I just don't see any basis for that.

If abductions are actual physical events, then I suppose we could assume that lots of biopsies are being conducted on people. But if that's the case, there could be lots of logical reasons for that, some that we could speculate about, and others that would be inscrutable to us without understanding motives - and that's a dead end because understanding alien motives is a hopeless task, imo.

In any case, the ETH implies that hundreds if not thousands or more alien civilizations could have the capability of reaching the Earth, and each one could decide to study our world and the ecosystem for all kinds of reasons.

Hell, they may just be grabbing some flowers and dirt for the missus when they get back home.

Yep - objecting to the ETH on the basis of alien motivations is perhaps the weakest argument imaginable, because any sentient being is going to have a range of motives and behaviors just as wide and varied as our own, if not more so. And we do all kinds of bizarre things for all kinds of bizarre reasons.

There are only two legitimate questions regarding the prospect of alien visitation:

1.) Are "they" out there? And based on what we know now from astronomy and astrobiology, the answer is almost certainly "yes, and they are legion: chances are that billions of advanced civilizations have arisen within the observable universe alone, and this is now a conclusion found in the peer-reviewed academic literature."

2.) Can they get probes or even occupied craft to the Earth? And based on our own technology, the answer to that question is "yes - we already have the capability of sending probes to nearby stars, and if they're sufficiently technologically advanced to have achieved 'applied general relativity,' then they could get here far faster than the speed of light so they could arrive from anyplace in this galaxy, or even other galaxies, and theoretically even from beyond the horizon of our observable universe."

All of the other arguments against the ETH, like "but they don't look weird enough" or "it makes no sense that they do this, that, or the other thing" or "there are too many reports of this, that, or the other behavior" (which is kind of an odd objection - that there's too much evidence), are all empty objections given that we reside in an infinite universe with an equal range of possibilities.

 

[Trajanus]

You've raised this objection many times, but when I think about it, I can't recall any specific cases where soil or plant samples have been collected, can you?

In fact there have been many such cases, plus others in which water or electricity was apparently taken. Back in 1975 a UFO landed in NJ and IIRC the occupants scooped up soil before leaving. In October 1973 there was at least one case, in NH IIRC, in which humanoids were seen collecting samples.

others that would be inscrutable to us without understanding motives - and that's a dead end because understanding alien motives is a hopeless task, imo.

I'm more optimistic. I think it can in essence, be done now.

Yep - objecting to the ETH on the basis of alien motivations is perhaps the weakest argument imaginable, because any sentient being is going to have a range of motives and behaviors just as wide and varied as our own, if not more so. And we do all kinds of bizarre things for all kinds of bizarre reasons.

I don't think there's any doubt ETs deliberately try to deceive us, and not only with ridiculous statements e.g. about origins ( e.g. Venus...).

All of the other arguments against the ETH, like "but they don't look weird enough" or "it makes no sense that they do this, that, or the other thing" or "there are too many reports of this, that, or the other behavior" (which is kind of an odd objection - that there's too much evidence), are all empty objections given that we reside in an infinite universe with an equal range of possibilities.

Well, I would expect advanced beings to behave in ways that are rational, instead of patently silly, so I interpret weird behavior (or appearances) not as rational behavior we can't understand but as attempts to confuse us (although you could say in that case, all alien behavior is ultimately rational.