Questions for Friedman & Alexander DEBATE: UFO secrecy

[Christopher O'Brien]

Earlier today Stanton Friedman posted (on UFO Updates) an invitation to debate John Alexander. This invitation was prompted by Alexander's take on UFO secrecy as related in yesterday's George Knapp's KLAS-TV article about Alexander's book: UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies and Realities. We've recently had both of these top experts on the program and this is your chance to contribute your questions for the debate. We will be taping Tuesday, September 13th and the show will air toward the end of the month...

From UFOUpdates:

"I have known George and John for more than 20 years and respect them both. I think George is one of the most informed main stream jourmnalists [sic] on UFOs in the country. However, having read John's book, and heard an hour discussion between him and George, and heard him in Phoenix at Open Minds and had a sort of debate with him there, I must say I think he has reached wrong conclusions
partly because he has a number of false claims in the book.

1. His claim that there is no secret data collection or investigative effort is based on the fact that he and his associates were unable to find it. One of those absence of evidence is evidence for absence arguments. We know from the NSA and CIA TOP SECRET Code word UFO documents, it would have taken a need to know besides such a clearance. No evidence is provided that any of the people searching had such a need to know.Why would anybody with the clearance and need to know have breeched security by talking to people, even those with a TS clearance,who didn't have the n-t-k.?

2. John claims that President Truman had already stated that UFOs were real and not from here, supposedly at a press conference. No evidence was provided that such a press conference was held or such a statement was made. The Truman Library did a search at my request and could find no such evidence. Claims without evidence aren't worth much.

3. John claims that USAF Secretary Sheila Widnall, as part of the GAO investigation re Roswell had offered amnesty to any former military person, who thought the information he had was
classified, to speak out openly..That simply isn't true. She said they could speak with Colonel Richard Weaver who had access to all special access programs. He is the disinformation specialist who wrote "The Roswell Report: Truth vs Fiction in the NM Desert." He provided the fiction. Her letter is on the internet.

4. John dismissed the MJ-12 documents based on false claims made by The National Archives early on which were later changed as I noted in "TOP SECRET/MAJIC" (2005). For example, the GAO itself later said they had found documents classified TOP SECRET RESTRICTED despite earlier claims that that designation..was not in use at the time...

5. There was no mention of the Bolender memo clearly establishing that there were separate communications channels for the USAF for reports which could affect national security and that these were not part of the Blue Book System contrary to contiinuing [sic] claims that there was no National Security aspect to UFOs[.]


In conclusion I think the evidence really does indicate that there is a Cosmic Watergate, that Roswell involved an alien saucer, that there is a group akin to Majestic 12.

Be happy to do a formal debate with John,

Stan Friedman"

Tune in space fanz, it should be an educationally-entertaining program!

 

[mike]

Very exciting, well done the Paracast for setting this one up
Should be an Historic show

 

[exo_doc]

Is this for a proposed debate or for one that is actually being scheduled?

In any event, here are my questions;

1. Assuming the US government is keeping UFO knowledge secret, could you list some of the most likely reasons it would do that?

2. What can the average person do to advance the study of UFO's or UAP's? .....ie;Write our Congressman to investigate, or write to our local newspapers to cover UFO reports better, ...something along those lines?

Thank You

exo

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

(Weird Questioner)

Hi Gene, Chris, Mr Stanton Friedman & Col Alexander,

Q.1 Mr Friedman and Col Alexander : is it plausible that the Nazi scientist might have develop some aspect of anti-gravity technology as suggested by researcher Mr Nick Cook and maybe ended up in Operation Paperclip ? Furthermore, your thought's on the recent media release last month of a so called nuclear waste deposit found in Germany which was suggest it might have come from WW2 quarry.

Q.2 Why do you think Col Corso came forward to reveal his story about so called ET technology and your thoughts on the so called foo-fighters in WW2 buzzing allied planes and did you ever hear any WW2 witness testimonies of foo-fighters using any sort emp/hostile action?

Q.3 Have both of you ever experienced any so paranormal activity?



Peace

 

[trainedobserver]

Q. Col. Alexander: In your book UFOs Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities you describe a search for the lead government agency investigating UFOs, yet you never mention the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO). Given that the NRO has both the systems and the mandate that make it the most logical candidate to either head up or be the major supplier of data for any national effort to understand UFOs, how did it escape even a mention? Were you a victim of the type of unintended disclosure that you describe in the book and did that prevent your from discussing the NRO? (an unanswerable questions perhaps)

To say the NRO is irrelevant to the investigation of UFOs seems simply incredible to say the least, or have I demonstrated a misunderstanding of the the NRO's mission and capabilities?

 

[Sentry]

The US government has passively allowed projects and operations to be mistaken for UFOs. Are there documented examples of using UFOs for disinformation or cover?

I understand that Dr. Alexander met Col. Corso before his Roswell book was published, but apparently only voiced his concerns over its details after it saw print. Also, considering the book's problems, I'd like to hear why Dr. Alexander helped Col. Corso in the promotion of the book.

 

[toxicsurf]

Wow, I'm really looking forward to this. Great job Paracast!

My question to both Friedman and Alexander. Does it seem to you that lately the MSM and the media in general are covering and propagating the myth/reality of UFO's and the ETH to a greater degree than in the past? And do you draw any conclusions as to why and if "someone" has pushed them in this direction? Or is it just that right now "aliens" sell?....

 

[Elendil]

Wow, this will be awesome! Can't wait to hear it. Kudos Chris & Gene!

 

[dyingsun]

This is an awesome catch, Gene and Chris! More thunder in there then Mr. Friedman debating Mr. Shostak. I'm reading Mr. Alexanders book since I just got it on Monday, I'm sure there will be a very very heated debate there. Good that we have a week for questions, but that looks like an awesome show in the making.

 

[bbridges]

Start with getting NASA to explain why the lunar photos that they release are so low in resolution, when they can show us high resolution photos of the lunar landers. How about the REST of the moon? uh, did NASA misplace them? Wanna buy a bridge, fella?

 

[Sentry]

Not a question, but a topic for discussion, the secrecy tactic of not leaving a paper trail:
Dr. Alexander has stated that when investigating UFOs, the name "Advanced Theoretical Physics" was used for obfuscation, and that there was an effort to keep from generating documents as to not produce material for FOIAs. Speaking about the same time period in the CIA/UFO history article by Gerald Haines wrote, "There was no formal or official UFO project within the Agency in the 1980s, and Agency officials purposely kept files on UFOs to a minimum to avoid creating records that might mislead the public if released."

 

[trainedobserver]

Start with getting NASA to explain why the lunar photos that they release are so low in resolution, when they can show us high resolution photos of the lunar landers. How about the REST of the moon? uh, did NASA misplace them? Wanna buy a bridge, fella?

Isn't the LRO is a military satellite? The difference between civilian space agency orbiter and a military asset will probably keep those photographs locked away and doled out sparingly with little recourse by the tax paying public.

That incredibly detailed photographs of the moon's surface exist which could put to rest any and all questions about whether artificial structures exist on the moon seems to be unquestionable.

 

[Digital Trickster]

What does Stanton think about the idea that ufos maybe from another dimension or from the future or possible some race or races that are from here?

 

[bbridges]

Was Clementine a military mission?

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 PM ----------

By this time in the never ending game of alphabet obscurations, i.e., NSA gradually surfaces after many years of invisibility as the shadow agency of the CIA. Then the NRO rises into visibility when a congressman suddenly 'notices' a tall new building rising off the thruway as he drives into the Capitol everyday, and inquires about its purpose. WHAT NEW AGENCY is then the 'new' black? WITH LEGAL AUTHORIZATION created in the Reagan era to create PRIVATE' sources of funding(woo hoo!, what an E ticket that is!) Congress forfeits its oversight role. Then who's minding the store? Alexander's informal, no paper trail 'working group' might lead one to question if he was the first or the last. "Unknown unknowns" are like NOCs-standard practice in the 'black world.' Is that paranoid conspiracy thinking, or as Huxley said, "A paranoid is just a man with all the facts?" As far as the speculation that the knowledge of e.t. or something like it would emerge as a political football or international one-up-manship chip imo is unjustified when political and economic stability is an incredibly important fundamental to every nation's stability. That said, and Wikileaks infers, what goes on between leaders often bears little relevance to what takes place behind the public's perception. Plausible Deniability and leaders' need to maintain their base creates quite a tapestry of deception. Georgio Bruni, a respected Italian journalist, relates her asking Britain's PM, Margaret Thatcher about the 'ET presence.' Caught off guard at a cocktail party that ,Ms. Bruni found herself invited to, Thatcher responds, "Yes, my dear, but you can't tell the people!" (Related to Timothy Good by Bruni, and later confirmed by Bruni herself). So, while it might be bad for the 'people,' it would be absolutely anathema to the ruling elite-read politicians and their funding controllers. Would they merely take note of its potential for disruption and leave it at that? No more action required? No need to throw a few bucks at it to know more? To BENEFIT from it?

 

[trainedobserver]

Was Clementine a military mission?

It was a joint project between the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO, previously the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization, or SDIO) and NASA.

If there is some as yet unrevealed black agency that is wrangling the UFO question, it appears to be so black that it has no real world impact. If Dolan's parallel civilization exists there doesn't appear to be any trickle down of technology like we experienced with the space race where ground breaking technologies found their way into everyday products and services. Again, it seems to be so secret that for all practical purposes it doesn't exist.

As far as the political side of it goes, you could argue this from several different angles. Politicians, philosophers, and religious leaders have all looked for something that would unify people throughout history. Certainly science fiction writers and politicians have used the possible threat of alien invasion as an example of something that would cause us to forget our differences and look toward our common interests. Had Ronald Reagan had any real evidence for such a thing it seems to me that he would have used it to unify the world. But who knows? There are more things in heaven and earth, Horacio ...

 

[mike]

i'm still buzzed over the prospect of this one, like one of those episodes of Dr Who featuring two or more doctors.

My question is for Dr Alexander, I though his comments regardind asking the right questions and the answers being more complex than we think an excellent observation.
Would he care to speculate as to the nature of the complexitys he mentions

The ultimate truth, he says, could be much more complicated

I would love to hear his speculations on the "ultimate truth" Personally i think its ET with a complicated twist, and would like to hear what he suspects might be the ultimate truth

 

[bbridges]

A reasonable line of reasoning based on reasonable assumptions, Rick . But it is just s reasonable to speculate that if their is at least the perception of a recognized threat that is so inscrutable in its behavior, that announcing it as a perceived threat with no ability to address the threat would be anything but unifying. If artifacts were acquired, but so advanced as to be useless at this point, then extreme secrecy while trying to make inroads to comprehending its nature and purpose would seem to be reasonable as well.The real world impact then might appear more in policy and international political maneuvering for future positioning for potential future events than in the trickle down of new technology. The ranch in Utah and the former Bradshaw ranch near Sedona now owned and sequestered by the federal government come to mind. Throw in Ingo Swann, George Leonard, Vito Saccheri, Janap 174(?), Bentwaters, and add in a host of other alleged events that you choose and it might seem even more reasonable.

 

[bbridges]

Adding another thought to my earlier post, and at the risk of over reaching or over simplifying, didn't the nazis try unifying the populace by pointing to a group that they presented as the 'the threat'; and were the long term results successful for them or the rest of the world? That radical terrorism is also being used today by some to justify hatred and violence toward all muslims; and by radical muslims against other religions for the same effect is another example. Any perceived unifying effect is only temporary and exploited by xenophobic 'culture warriors' to achieve other agendas, while deeply dividing the world and shredding any hope for a united, just, and more peaceful world. Perhaps President Reagan's rhetorical comments are an example of a cultural myth, or metaphor, tapping into vague and unsettling fears of 'the other' to build political unity in one arena while at the same time destroying any possible chance of achieving it in the long run? This use of 'ad hominem' rhetoric is historically abundant and yet look at the repeated outcomes. How well do such arguments hold up beyond short term gains for a particular group's agenda? This tried and true rhetorical argument has been used by leaders to rouse and unify a population throughout history and yet it never achieves a lasting peace or unity. Wall Street's reactive daily trading is a prime example of the exploitation of a host of supposed metrics, more emotional than reasonable, to move people in a specific direction for short term gains. So to offer the argument that while 'the alien threat' could be used in a similar manner as these examples appears to support your speculation, it would quickly dissipate without a galvanizing demonstration of that threat. Leadership would find itself weakened, not strengthened by such a ploy. Leadership would have to plant the fear gradually, and subtly -perhaps even staging random events along the way-frequently measuring and monitoring the public impact of the meme until some future event could be seized upon to spring the trap. And just maybe, that is already in play, but I wouldn't bank on it. It seems far more likely that the recognition of the existence of an outside yet indecipherable and awesomely powerful player flitting around the edges of our perceived reality would demand an intense but predominately invisible response within governments- a concerted effort to understand and develop some level of capable defense against it. At this point of rapidly advancing technological capability colliding with the precarious state of affairs, it would be impossible to ignore. Based on these reasonable assumptions, there must exist more than 'informal' study groups and paltry funding directed to these concerns, Alexander's conclusions notwithstanding to my mind. We may be approaching 'Idiocracy" in many areas but I can't accept it that his investigative conclusions are conclusive; He is either out of the loop, or premature in his assessment, or executing the 'next step' in an evolving game. It bears our careful consideration.

 

[manxman]

Was Clementine a military mission?

It was a joint project between the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO, previously the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization, or SDIO) and NASA.

Sorry but it had nothing to do with nasa apart from using some of their arrays, and some funding, naval space command pulled the strings on this solely military operation and controlled the alphabet soup agencies involved, which in itself was part of the star wars technology testing.

Defense.gov News Transcript: DoD News Briefing


The Clementine Project, first of all, let me tell you was a joint project. Something very good took place in the government. The Ballistic Missile Defense Organization was in charge of the project. The Naval Research Laboratory designed and built the satellite. Lawrence Livermore Laboratory built the sensor package that was on board. Finally, NASA contributed by financial support of the scientific team that analyzes the data, as well as providing to us the use of the Deep Space Network array of antennas to receive the transmissions back from the Clementine. So this was truly a joint government operation between many arms of the U.S. Federal Government.

.................................................................................


On Star Wars...

Q: Can you update us on... The colonel mentioned that by the time he got to the office in 1989 it was pretty clear the U.S. wasn't going to deploy a space-based missile defense system. What's happened to the Star Wars program? How is your office changing? What are you using this technology for today?

A: Although many of the space platforms that were really envisioned as part of the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization program back in 1989 have not been supported and continued because of the change in emphasis, including the name of the organization to the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization, we're now primarily focused on theater missile defense and national missile defense -- defense of the U.S. continent and Alaska and Hawaii with a much reduced threat. And of course we have the demise of the Cold War to thank for that.

However, there is still a space-borne component to our theater and national missile defense architecture, and that is the space-based infrared satellite. That will allow us to do tracking, particularly in boost and in the mid-course phases of the trajectory of a ballistic missile. So all the technologies that were demonstrated on Clementine are technologies that we would hope would be either used or would be the grand-daddies of technologies that we would eventually use in our space surveillance platforms. So that part of the space architecture is still very much alive.

Q: But the role of the so-called Star Wars system now has shifted to more of a surveillance, as opposed to shooting something down...

A: No, it is still based on shooting down ballistic missiles by impact with interceptors. So this technology is important in order to track and pass the track files on to the interceptors in order to allow them to hit their targets. So it's very much a part of the architecture.

The Clementine Mission
Clementine



Version 1.5 of the Navy Browser...
Clementine Lunar Map 2.0 (Beta)


Version 2.0 of the Navy Browser...
Clementine Lunar Map 2.0 (Beta)


NRL was responsible for the design, manufacture, integration, and mission execution of the Clementine spacecraft for the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization. During its two-month orbit of the Moon in 1994, Clementine captured 1.8 million images of the Moon's surface. The Laboratory provides the Clementine Lunar Image Browser as a courtesy to scientific researchers, as well as the general public, and you are welcome to browse the over 170,000 images that are available.


.....................................................................................................................


Naval space command has been around since the fifties that i know of, 1985 in its blurb, is false.



Naval Space Command
(NAVSPACECOM) (U)


Description (U):

(U) Headquartered at Dahlgren, Virginia, NAVSPACECOM began operations October 1, 1983. NAVSPACECOM uses the medium of space and its potential to provide essential information and capabilities to ashore and afloat naval forces by:

-Operating assigned systems;
-Executing missions assigned by USCINCSPACE;
-Advocating naval warfighting requirements in the joint arena; and
-Advising, supporting, and assisting naval services through training and by developing space plans, programs, budgets, policies, concepts, and doctrine.

(U) NAVSPACECOM also serves as the naval service component of the United States Space Command (USSPACECOM), established in 1985. Component responsibilities include operating assigned space systems to provide surveillance and warning, as well as providing spacecraft telemetry and on-orbit engineering support. In addition, NAVSPACECOM provides facilities and staffs a command center 24 hours a day to serve as the Alternate Space Control Center (ASCC) for USSPACECOM's primary center located at Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Base, Colo. ASCC missions include operational direction of the entire global Space Surveillance Network for CINCSPACE. The ASCC also detects, tracks, identifies, and catalogs all man-made objects in space and provides ephemeris on these objects to approximately1,000 customers. It also monitors the space environment and informs owners and operators of U.S. and allied space systems of potential threat to their assets by continuous liaison with the systems' operations centers. Finally, NAVSPACECOM provides administrative oversight for two Echelon 3 operational Navy activities: the Naval Satellite Operations Center (NAVSOC) and the Fleet Surveillance Support Command (FLTSURVSUPPCOM).

Naval Space Cmnd (NAVSPACECOM) (U)





Take a look through the pictures until you come to the air-bourne direct energy beam kill of a ballistic missile, star wars in action.

The MDA has fielded an initial capability to protect the U.S and our allies against limited ballistic missile attack. The Ballistic Missile Defense System (BMDS) is becoming more integrated, robust, and global every day.

The Missile Defense Agency - U.S. Department of Defense

 

[Greg M]

Looking forward to this show, so much!!!!

Question - has there been anything new with the MJ12 papers, that give it more credence? Are people closer to saying this part of MJ12 is real, this one is questionable, this one is dis-information? I have read some of the MJ 12 papers, and they all seem plausible, but are they plausible because we have a different way of thinking now. We think like people from the year 2011, is it possible for our minds to step back in time and think in the time period that is being investigated forgetting what the researcher knows from this present date ( I guess i mean, is it possible to 'unkown' what we know presently and think accurately and fairly in the time period that is being researched ---- "mind archeology " at it's finest.