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Obama on Gay Marriage

Free episodes:

1. Dilutes the definition/concept of the word and the relationship
2. Not allowing it doesn't keep gays and lesbians from having the benefits of marriage
3. Marriage is anthropologically and historically in human history between a man and a woman, or plural in some cases, but not same sex
4. Not allowing marriage doesn't stop gays/lesbians having a loving relationship
5. Breaks cultural tradition of what marriage has been/ is
6. Even where in history homosexuality is permitted or even accepted as a norm, formal marriage is between the opposite sex
7. Marriage is for reproduction
8. Marriage is heterosexual and additionally is for political alliance between kingdoms, tribes, etc.
9. Marriage is for children and additionally for passing on culture and for the cohesiveness of society
10. There have always been conditions/limits/requirements for marriage in societies, nations, cultures
11. I have read studies that purportedly show that statistically homosexuals have shorter life spans due to disease, and that in the west HIV is said to be spread mostly by gay and bisexual men
12. Children should be raised by a father and mother
13. What, exactly, is the point of legal civil marriage per se if all other benefits are available, health insurance, etc., from civil unions?
14. If this exception is allowed, what other reasons might people demand the right of legal civil marriage?
Bigamy, plural marriage are illegal.
15. Children may be confused by being raised by two parents of the same sex

Firstly, I acknowledge that you say this was an academic exercise and not a true reflection of your own ideology. I also accept that the above list is supposed to be void of religious concerns. Now, I would like to comment on each.

1. Dilutes the definition/concept of the word and the relationship.
I do not understand what this means. How does a same sex couple dilute the legal/social concept of a marriage? To me this dilution you speak of will always harken back to religious acceptance or lack thereof.

2. Not allowing it doesn't keep gays and lesbians from having the benefits of marriage
This is absolutely false. It hinders them from tax benefits, Insurance benefits, social categorization, credit consolidation, and other benefits currently reserved for "Next of Kin" or "Spouse" designations.

3. Marriage is anthropologically and historically in human history between a man and a woman, or plural in some cases, but not same sex
The concept of "marriage" has evolved over time. Woman were once considered property. Interracial couplings were forbidden. Non-Comptable religious limitations were imposed. Et Cetera ad nauseum.

4. Not allowing marriage doesn't stop gays/lesbians having a loving relationship
It also doesnt stop China from producing low cost foot wear, or locusts from swarming. But it does stop them from taking full advantage of all manner of social advantages afforded married couples and their families. This one is really about restriction by refusal to acknowledge. If I were to tell you that you had to go throughout life unable to speak or write the letters "Q" and "S" it would not hinder your personal appreciation of art and literature. But you would soon find it overwhelmingly restrictive. Its the same concept.

5. Breaks cultural tradition of what marriage has been/ is
Again, the institution of marriage is ALWAYS evolving. Lets look at how the typical family structure was perceived in the 1850's. The man ran the house. Socially the wife ceased to be acknowledged without first being linked to the man. Many a census record lists the wife as simply Mrs. Johnson. Even in the event of her husbands death she would be known socially as "The Widow Johnson". This concept was not truly broken until the late 1950's to early 1960's. We still hear echos of it today. My point is simply that you can choose any two eras in the history of marriage and the concepts will differ. Sometimes greatly and sometimes with more subtlety. But they will differ. This is representative of a social evolution of the concept. As a mental exercise write down your current concept of what a marriage is and then present this to the average Quaker of the mid 17th century. Are those concepts compatible?

6. Even where in history homosexuality is permitted or even accepted as a norm, formal marriage is between the opposite sex
I am going to assume that you are speaking mostly of Ancient Greek and Roman societies. To this I would say that the concept of legal marriage was not to consummate love but to declare a legal line of succession of assets from parent to offspring. Since same sex relationships would not generate a line of secession for asset transfer upon death, the concept was not expanded.

7. Marriage is for reproduction
Hmmm, then I guess the elderly, infirm, and sterile among society should likewise be denied the designation regardless of meeting the appropriate gender restrictions? This is just a silly argument.

8. Marriage is heterosexual and additionally is for political alliance between kingdoms, tribes, etc.
This just looks like your trying to fill out a list of ten items. Its silly and has no bearing in the modern world. Sure, in the European courts of 1542 it would certainly be applicable but in 2012 it is laughable.

9. Marriage is for children and additionally for passing on culture and for the cohesiveness of society
We have already addressed the first part of this. As far as passing on culture and the cohesiveness of society.... I am unsure what the heck you are talking about. Gay and lesbian relationships are part of our culture and in no way threaten the cohesiveness of our society.

Personally, I'll never forget the carnage that played out in the streets and common areas whenever gay couples married in New York. Oh the horror! Wait... thats right... none of that ever happened! Life and society in New York continue to function perfectly fine. As it did in Connecticut, D.C., Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont.

10. There have always been conditions/limits/requirements for marriage in societies, nations, cultures
Yes. But, those conditions/limits/requirements have always evolved to reflect the then current societal trend. The concept has always been fluid.

11. I have read studies that purportedly show that statistically homosexuals have shorter life spans due to disease, and that in the west HIV is said to be spread mostly by gay and bisexual men
Urban myth. The spread of HIV is not restrictive to sexual orientation. It is spread primarily by sexual promiscuity and indifference to preventive measures. The largest At Risk groups I am aware of are intravenous drug users and sex workers.

13. What, exactly, is the point of legal civil marriage per se if all other benefits are available, health insurance, etc., from civil unions?
Social acceptance. Equality. The concept you have described is not a new argument. The last time I heard it was when it was applied to racial segregation. Separate but equal. Which, I hope we can agree, was an F'ing ridiculous concept to begin with. Lets not repeat that same absurd mistake.

14. If this exception is allowed, what other reasons might people demand the right of legal civil marriage?
Bigamy, plural marriage are illegal.
Different concepts. Marriage to farm animals, pieces of machinery, or to bacon are also not covered in the same sex marriage argument.

15. Children may be confused by being raised by two parents of the same sex
*GASP* Hold on! You mean I might have to teach my child about confusing concepts or have a running dialogue concerning complex social and societal issues????? Screw that! I'd rather watch American Idol.
 
Seen logically and bio-logically it doesn't really seem to make much sense, does it? So is it just a glitch in nature? Just provoking here.

Not to stir the religous discussion (please?), but I think one should consider the possibility that sometimes people may be born with what they will later feel to be "the wrong sex". And, like certain strange birthmarks, phobias, children's remarks about former lives etc., homosexuality has not been really explained scientifically yet (as far as I know).

In the two cases I observed, of children making strange remarks (described here), the boy once told me in a seemingly joking manner (but I felt he was quite serious) that he might have been born in a "wrong body" and that he would like to "change his sex". And I have noticed (he is now approaching 20) that he is really quite undecided which way to go sexually. That was one of the more personal things I mention in the post and which at that point I didn't want to talk about (now, though, I'm quite certain that no-one in my vicinity is going to read this). I have the feeling that the "former life" he once told me of, when he was six or seven years old, may not be that of a male person. And maybe because that past life ended very abruptly and traumatically, some things "carried over", possibly including sexual identity. But again, I can't prove anything, it's just a personal conclusion.

Following these remarks, in the last years, I've come to think that there's really something inside us which is independent of the body and doesn't know sex at all. Maybe this legislation and speech is a sign of society becoming aware that we are not only biological machines. I sure hope so. Why not allow people of the same sex to marry? It's not the biological outfit that matters, only - well call it the soul, consciousness or whatever.
 
A "secular space" is where we all meet to function together, in spite of variance in personal values that will ALWAYS differ, be it between major religions, or within religions themselves.

Voting based on something others are doing that simply makes one feel angry or "icky" is a waste of resources. A crime is an act committed against others. A sin, by my definition, is an act committed against oneself. The first is actionable. The second, IMO, is a matter each person must decide for him or herself.

And yes, there is sometimes difficulty in defining the difference.
 
Wow Kim, you really don't get it, do you? I'm not religious, but that doesn't mean I am against Christianity, or any other religion. My entire family is Catholic, so is my wife's family. My daughter was baptized, I got married in a Catholic church. When I went to the marriage lessons the church has you go to when you get married, I was one of the more knowledgable people there.
That does not change the fact that the reason that people are against gay marriage is religious.
 
Oh,ok, you mean Benny hinn. Now I really know how abysmally ignorant and yes, cruel and stupidly cutting and jabbing you are, ezechiel. To judge Christians by Benny hinn. But of course you have no other recourse because the horrific depth of your ignorance, and the psychological and personal reasons, whatever they are, that give rise to this utter hatred and derision that you exhibit toward Christians, limit you to cheapness, crudity, cartoons, sweeping generalizations, and all around lowness. You are incapable of engaging in any true discussion because you can't even acknowledge any of the obvious truths I've written about the variety in Christianity and the truly wonderful things millions and millions of Christians do daily personally and as churches on a nationwide and worldwide level. They are in the forefront of moving inclusive views forward, fighting for them, the very things in your list you claim they despise.

You are tawdry and cheap in your method of discussion.

And you and SoCal offer each other little anecdotal stories of wife swapping regarding Christians.

You both are cheap, ignorant, hateful, and uneducated in the most fundamental ways.

I should wake up and see what others have told me, that I'm succumbing to trolls. I see what they mean. Kim

I related my personal experience while living in NC. If anything is tawdry, its people who are "christians" yet would do something like this. As for someone being a troll, you're it baby! I think most people here are tired of you hijacking every thread and trying to turn it into some sort of proselytizing experience for your "faith". This forum used to be intellectually stimulating and interesting. With you on board, its not.
 
I have steadfastly avoided doing anything remotely "proselytizing" and that is clear, and I've said it before. I have stuck to the history of Judaism and Christianity and facts.

I think religion had become a key subject, a very pervasive one, on these forums before I entered the fray, so to speak, some weeks ago. I have tried to have productive discussions, but the ingrained "utter hatred" (as Jabbermockey put it so well) toward religion, Judaism and Christianity primarily and chiefly without question, drowns out any hope of that.

I entered some key words into the forum search box and read posts having to do with religion for at least the past three years. Now, I did quite a bit of reading, but I don't claim it was exhaustive, but I did come away with some observations. I've been a member of the forum since 2006, but did little to no posting until April of this year. Little did I know what I was in for, but I don't regret it, and have received a lot of support and encouragement.

1. As I said, religion has been a pervasive subject on the forums.
2. The tone has remained the same, the slashing sarcasm, the hatred, the derision, the generalizations from "wife swapping stories" and similar personal experiences, the taking out of context stories in the Jewish and Christian scriptures and laying them out profanely with nothing short of pure glee.
3. The inaction of moderators to this has remained the same as now. Two moderators posted mild admonishments about stuff toward Muslims, but the posts they criticized were very, very mild compared to what I've seen expressed toward Jews and Christians, and these two moderators in the recent "wars" not only do not ask that members back off a little and be willing to acknowledge some good at least about Judaism and Christianity, but they in my opinion abet the attacks with their own generalizations that ignore my oft repeated refrain that tens and tens and tens of millions of Jews and Christians have and do work to move forward inclusive views in society on a number of key issues. Not even this is acknowledged, simply acknowledged, by anyone. Why? Who knows.
4. People never change, and this struck me immediately and forcefully, and also, as a teacher of three and half decades, sadly. As someone used to seeing students grow in knowledge and thinking, I was shocked to see how people here resist change on a variety of levels, and as it regards Judaism and Christianity, no effort made to see any good about the two faiths, even when pointed out politely by not only me but other posters. Similar to the "wars" of the past six weeks or so, those old wars show the same people spouting the same drivel, and derisive and ignorant drivel at that, showing such ignorance of basic history that you wonder if their educations stopped at sixth grade.
5. Continuing #4, sure enough, there are the same, EXACT same, youtube videos spouting the silliness, the easy way out of arguing with someone who wants to have a discussion on the facts.
6. The same jungle of cut and paste, sometimes the EXACT stuff culled from the internet to criticize and generalize about Jews and Christians.
7. I noticed a trend, I don't know the full extent of it, but I noticed that those who stood up for a fairer discussion, who had religious beliefs and were trying to explain the good, and even acknowledging the bad, and who were trying to engage in an intellectually honest discussion, evaporated. Their evanescence into vapor and absence from the forums was quite evident.
8. There's the same member from our much admired neighbor to the north, and I mean that genuinely, I love Canada, have friends there, but he was still doing his Christian bashing with his own unique style of, he thinks, rhetorical finesse, the open ended and seemingly profound rhetorical question, about, well, what? The US becoming a proclaimed Christian nation. Same old stuff.
9. Bless their hearts, and I hope he doesn't get angry with me, there's good ol' Steve, he of the genuinely good heart and Southern manners I admire so much, as my parents and ancestors were born and raised in the South, constantly trying to inject calm, pleading for fairness, criticizing the cursing, name calling, and methods of the haters who overwhelm with the worst they can cull from the internet. Steve, and I don't mean this condescendingly, grew in those years I researched the forum, and yet he is timeless. I know he helped me with my own frustration during these vile wars. I lashed out, too, but tried to and I think admirably succeeded in, sticking to the facts and history and countering cruel generalizations about Jews and Christians. Steve knew the tenor of the forum on this subject from years past, but I didn't until just this morning I did this research to try to understand the genesis of such loud and vulgar condemnation of two faiths which despite the rough spots, have done and are doing so much good.
10. Parareality Saint, too, tried to get his views across fairly, and he's stuck in there.
11. I learned in this research that religion, well, what are the terms, CANNOT be separated, or is it WILL NOT be separated, or SHOULD NOT be separated but, rather, IS NECESSARY TO the discussion of the paranormal. That is why SoCal's outburst toward me in his post above accusing me of "hijacking threads" and bringing my "proselytizing" of my "faith" into threads is so disingenuous. Not true. It was the posters in the threads past and present who CANNOT avoid it, be it a thread about consciousness, transhumanism, and on and on. In fact, when I would appear and post in some threads, I would stick to the subject of it, but the posters who had been the most hateful and derisive toward Jews and Christians, made a point of pointedly rejecting religion in support of whatever point they were making regarding the subject of the thread to continue to get the digs in.
12. I found the presence of religion in countless threads over the past three and more years, and the reaction was always the same, and always from nearly the same people.
13. But I suppose SoCal finds the forum intellectually stimulating. I don't disagree with that, but to blame the lack of interest for him now for the forum on me is a bit disingenuous. But he judges Christianity by a wife swapping story, and chances are if the full story was known, his little narrative was no doubt fleshed out a bit for effect.
14. The core membership of active posters on the forum has remained the same relatively few, very, very few. And I think the forum has lost and loses members because of its tone on many subjects, but I think it's a great mistake NOT to think that the views expressed toward Jews and Christians by some members has caused members to leave.
15. I know it was difficult as the "wars" progressed off and on in the Jesus thread, religion threads, etc., for those core members who have blasted religion so vehemently to have met someone who has actually and academically and with personal enjoyment studied the very scriptures, and read many scholarly books on the history of Judaism and Christianity. It's my hobby, what I taught. I know it sounds "pompous," but I think I steadfastly remained on the subject of history and facts, and fought the wrong "facts," misguided assumptions, non sequiturs, etc. with facts, evidence of different aspects of the history of Judaism and Christianity. This offended some members who were used to essentially ruling the forums with their perceived profundity on aliens, transhumanism and machine man, alien visitations, etc.
16. I also noticed something else in my last six weeks or so on the forum, and noticed it in my research into other threads and posts over years past. That is what I would call "picking on the weak." Now, by that I want to be very clear: it means the like of, for instance, Billy Meier, Greer, Talbot and Robbert, and I could list others. These guests and their experiences, not only these but many others, are, essentially, easy pickings for the self-proclaimed skeptics and profound wiseacres that some of the members on the forums are. Now, I'm not saying these skeptics are not intelligent, but they rest their reputations on the forum (and make no doubt about it, some members here make this forum a VERY, VERY large part of their lives, daily and long term) to denouncing in deep and self-conscious language how this or that person, guest in the UFO/alien/cryptid/ghost field is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. First of all, most of this stuff is wrong prima facie. But then to demolish it even more is, well, anyone with a half a brain could do it, and threads go on and on about clear frauds. That's picking on the weak, easy pickings, so those members can look at themselves and think how smart they are. Too, too easy.
17. So, when something comes up, Judaism and Christianity, behind which faiths are centuries and centuries and centuries of history, struggle, fine points of doctrinal arguments, in essence the whole history of the world, especially the ancient world of europe and the middle east, and on which rests so much of our western history, law, culture, etc., well, see that's not such easy pickings for someone who for personal reasons, bad experiences, stories of wife swapping, an experience of running into trouble over installation of a detection device having to do with the number of the beast, psychological reasons, or, yes, just plain ignorance of the subject in every way, well, no, not such easy pickings. And the profundity exhibited in demolishing Robbert and crop circles, and debating over whether the crop circle guy is possessive of a doctorate, well, those well-honed skills on which the member bases probably a good part of his self image, do not stand him in such good stead when it comes to actual sophistication, richness, COMPLEXITY, cause and effect, political movements, religious movements, the Reformations, Edward VI's Reformation, the disputations between Thomas Cranmer and his opponents, well not such easy pickings at all.
18. And the irony is that you don't really have to know the history of Judaism and Christianity to that extent to have a discussion, but the poster does need to have some sort of ability to transcend the "utter hatred" and revulsion that these faiths automatically engender in him. Kim
 
Kim, there's no war going on here. We get it, religion works for you. You're also missing the point of this forum - it's for discussions. You're also taking it WAY too seriously. You need to relax.
 
Firstly, I acknowledge that you say this was an academic exercise and not a true reflection of your own ideology. I also accept that the above list is supposed to be void of religious concerns. Now, I would like to comment on each.


I do not understand what this means. How does a same sex couple dilute the legal/social concept of a marriage? To me this dilution you speak of will always harken back to religious acceptance or lack thereof.


This is absolutely false. It hinders them from tax benefits, Insurance benefits, social categorization, credit consolidation, and other benefits currently reserved for "Next of Kin" or "Spouse" designations.


The concept of "marriage" has evolved over time. Woman were once considered property. Interracial couplings were forbidden. Non-Comptable religious limitations were imposed. Et Cetera ad nauseum.


It also doesnt stop China from producing low cost foot wear, or locusts from swarming. But it does stop them from taking full advantage of all manner of social advantages afforded married couples and their families. This one is really about restriction by refusal to acknowledge. If I were to tell you that you had to go throughout life unable to speak or write the letters "Q" and "S" it would not hinder your personal appreciation of art and literature. But you would soon find it overwhelmingly restrictive. Its the same concept.


Again, the institution of marriage is ALWAYS evolving. Lets look at how the typical family structure was perceived in the 1850's. The man ran the house. Socially the wife ceased to be acknowledged without first being linked to the man. Many a census record lists the wife as simply Mrs. Johnson. Even in the event of her husbands death she would be known socially as "The Widow Johnson". This concept was not truly broken until the late 1950's to early 1960's. We still hear echos of it today. My point is simply that you can choose any two eras in the history of marriage and the concepts will differ. Sometimes greatly and sometimes with more subtlety. But they will differ. This is representative of a social evolution of the concept. As a mental exercise write down your current concept of what a marriage is and then present this to the average Quaker of the mid 17th century. Are those concepts compatible?


I am going to assume that you are speaking mostly of Ancient Greek and Roman societies. To this I would say that the concept of legal marriage was not to consummate love but to declare a legal line of succession of assets from parent to offspring. Since same sex relationships would not generate a line of secession for asset transfer upon death, the concept was not expanded.


Hmmm, then I guess the elderly, infirm, and sterile among society should likewise be denied the designation regardless of meeting the appropriate gender restrictions? This is just a silly argument.


This just looks like your trying to fill out a list of ten items. Its silly and has no bearing in the modern world. Sure, in the European courts of 1542 it would certainly be applicable but in 2012 it is laughable.


We have already addressed the first part of this. As far as passing on culture and the cohesiveness of society.... I am unsure what the heck you are talking about. Gay and lesbian relationships are part of our culture and in no way threaten the cohesiveness of our society.

Personally, I'll never forget the carnage that played out in the streets and common areas whenever gay couples married in New York. Oh the horror! Wait... thats right... none of that ever happened! Life and society in New York continue to function perfectly fine. As it did in Connecticut, D.C., Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont.


Yes. But, those conditions/limits/requirements have always evolved to reflect the then current societal trend. The concept has always been fluid.


Urban myth. The spread of HIV is not restrictive to sexual orientation. It is spread primarily by sexual promiscuity and indifference to preventive measures. The largest At Risk groups I am aware of are intravenous drug users and sex workers.


Social acceptance. Equality. The concept you have described is not a new argument. The last time I heard it was when it was applied to racial segregation. Separate but equal. Which, I hope we can agree, was an F'ing ridiculous concept to begin with. Lets not repeat that same absurd mistake.


Different concepts. Marriage to farm animals, pieces of machinery, or to bacon are also not covered in the same sex marriage argument.


*GASP* Hold on! You mean I might have to teach my child about confusing concepts or have a running dialogue concerning complex social and societal issues????? Screw that! I'd rather watch American Idol.
Quoted for Truth, well said.

Bravo
 
I related my personal experience while living in NC. If anything is tawdry, its people who are "christians" yet would do something like this. As for someone being a troll, you're it baby! I think most people here are tired of you hijacking every thread and trying to turn it into some sort of proselytizing experience for your "faith".
This forum used to be intellectually stimulating and interesting. With you on board, its not

Took the words right out of my (and i dont doubt many others) mouth.

His "what am i going to do with you" mechanism is transparent, Its the sort of thing a parent or teacher says to a small child, thus its use here is to belittle the target and paint a picture of superiority.
Its condescending and arrogant , and an insult to the high calibre of intellect we are lucky enough to have gathered here.

His Ad nauseam insistance his book learnin makes him an authority on, and thus better judge of the issues being discusssed, is deflated and totally negated by the demonstration of his lack of reading and comprehension skills as highlighted by not knowing "benny" was pope benedict, mentioned in this very thread as someone who has spoken out against Obama's statement on gay marriage.

This forum used to be intellectually stimulating and interesting. With you on board, its not.

Preachin to the choir here mate ;)
 
Well, mike I don't think that was clear at all with the denigration of Christians and Jews that's gone on here. Referring to pope Benedict as Benny: what's wrong with his birth name or, indeed, his proper title? Is he as a man and as the pope worthy of some respect, or Christians and Jews, too, for the indisputable good they have done? I don't think ezechiel described pope Benedict at all fairly.

At the risk of being accused of "proselytizing", may I recommend two books by the pope, and I recommend them on an historical basis and perspective. They are Jesus of Nazareth: From the Baptism in the Jordan to the Transfiguration, and a second, Jesus of Nazareth: Holy Week: From the Entrance into Jerusalem to the Resurrection. I know the titles are full of buzzwords for you and others, but my intent is not to convert, never remotely has been, but academically to suggest two excellent books by the pope (not Benny; perhaps close friends or family call him that, but its use here was ridicule). The books are getting rave reviews on amazon, and I've read many glowing reviews as well as the books, or is that sounding condescending?

But, do you ever (ever?) want to learn about that which you so vociferously condemn?

I do genuinely thank you for pointing out that Benny was a reference to Pope Benedict XVI, mike.

And you know, give me my writing style of tongue in cheek, chiding, even some degree of condescension, a good amount of pedanticism, throw in some frustration and shake my head wonderment at the lack of knowledge, but I would much rather be those than vile and using derision as my only method of discourse. But this is old stuff, and you can read my post above. That's my last word on the subject and on personalities.

However, I will not shy away from confronting with facts any further accusations/falsities about history or of the histories of Judaism and Christianity when they occur, especially like your link to that website with the vile cartoons about Jews you posted, and regarding which I linked to certain posters that were similar. That's not a threat, just that vile generalizations should not be made about groups of people, whether the moderators want to call you on it or not, but I will patiently and no doubt to you condescendingly point out the facts. Kim
 
This article echos the very same points made here.
To the best of my knowledge the author is not a paracast member, and yet the decency and good sense is reflected across both venues.

“I support gay marriage” these four little words are seeming to affect the masses of the U.S. people. I personally can find no problem in people of the same sex getting married. If anyone wants to take on the challenging role of married life more power to them. To be honest never really thought of this as a big deal at all, but now that the Obama has made it public that he supports gay marriage it has spun out of control. First off I would like to remind everybody that he only now took this stance after being put on the spot by media and the remarks of Biden. I would also like to remind everybody that this is an election year so anything he can do to rally support you can bet your ass he is going to do so. Now to my dear friends and peers that are treating this lone statement as a victory for gay rights, nothing truly has been done. One man made a comment in support of gay marriage while an entire state chose to make a law that says it is illegal. Things like this should not even need to be voted on, what goes on in a house hold is between the family that lives there. As long as there is no kind of abuse, and no one is in danger let people be. I find it humorous when I ask most fanatical Christians that are antigay why they think that this is evil. Their response is god said so, so then I ask them to point it out to me. I have not had one person actually flip to the page in Leviticus that outlines the rules that the Israelites were given to follow. This is where it originates, archaic rules for starting out a civilization to make it last. So now I ask of you that truly believe that it is evil, do you go around your wife or girl friend while she is menstruating? If so you are just as evil as a person who fornicates with animals. As Leviticus mentions several rules outlining sexual conduct as a human being it was meant for survival of the population. The right wingers choose which they would like to follow and which they find are silly.
I find that it takes two loving individuals to deal with the constant hurdles that married life throws at us. Again I commend anyone that wants to take on such endeavors to join with another person for life be it a man and a woman, or folks of the same sex. Love conquers all.

Four Little Words | Sinclair News.Net
 
As far as Benny is concerned, he's entitled to his point of view. So am I and life goes on.

... But Benny has something more than a point of view. As the leader of the catholic sect he guards the only door to eternal life.

Convert or perish in eternal hell. For your gods sake Kim, there must be a strand of rationality left in your soul to acknowledge how destructive such a damning construct is ? That kind of judgmental power does not belong in human hands.
 
It also highlights how the concept of seperation of church and state is easier said than actually done, (but it must be done, lest we devolve back to the days of Galileo and the torture dungeon)

Its funny isnt it how benny can have a go at the President for his views on gay marriage, but says nothing about the fact they dont stone disobediant children to death in the US.

If the church doesnt want to marry gay couples, fine its their building, if they dont want gays in their congregation, fine. the local RSL club doesnt let you in wearing a singlet and shorts either.
Your club your rules, i get that

But he has no business trying to dictate civil policy in a system of Govt where the state and the church are not the same entity.
Catholic voters will be expected to tow the line and not vote for a candidate who thinks equality should be universal.
In a system that openly states the church and state are seperate, the church should respect that, not be trying to apply political leverage based on their archaic beliefs.
And again the shoe on other foot meme kicks in, how would he like a state legislating that catholic marriages should not be allowed....... they would be the first to start screaming personal choice is not the business of the state.
That people should be "FREE" to be catholic and married as a catholic couple
Of course they should.......
But by extension of the logic, they should also be "FREE" to be gay and married as a gay couple
 
However, I will not shy away from confronting with facts any further accusations/falsities about history or of the histories of Judaism and Christianity when they occur, especially like your link to that website with the vile cartoons about Jews you posted, and regarding which I linked to certain posters that were similar. That's not a threat, just that vile generalizations should not be made about groups of people, whether the moderators want to call you on it or not, but I will patiently and no doubt to you condescendingly point out the facts. Kim

Thats complete and utter Bullshit, and dont think we dont see what youve (whats this your third try now) tried to do with this.
I posted a link to the brick testament website, it highlights the absurdity of OT laws etc.
I posted links to the specific segments about stoning children to death, and the rules regarding menstrating women.

It was YOU who trawled through the site and found and posted a link to this.

The Brick Testament

And then attempted to spin the use of the word Jew, as somehow translating to me posting "vile cartoons about jews"....... did you hope that Gene who is jewish might not see through your pathetic charade, and deal with me as an antisemite ?

It was you who posted that link not me, and for the record i dont find the word jew in that link offensive.

There is nothing offensive about the word jew or about being jewish, your attempts to link that cartoon with nazi propaganda posters has despite three attempts failed to ellicit the response only you can imagine it should.

Its akin to Chris posting a link to a 2012 article at rense.com and me trying to paint him an antisemite since rense has some anti zionist links as well.......

There is no logical connection, Your grubby attempt to paint one where it doesnt exist is as transparent as it is pitiable
 
Guys, can we stop calling Pope Benedict "Benny?" To those on the forum that are catholic, it can be insulting. I don't agree with his philosophy, but some people may take offense to that.
That goes both ways though. Just because someone is not religious, it does not make them racist or anti-semetic. Some people are making sweeping generalizations of those that are not religious and it's unfair.
 
Mike, Angelo says in a post above that the purpose of the forum is discussion. I believed that when that original thread on Jesus was begun. It was never a discussion from your point of view. If all your posts and posts of some others were put side by side from that thread and others on religion your way of discussion is clear.

Read my post above about some research I did when Christianity came up in years past on this forum. I found posts a year ago from you word for word in places of the kind of stuff you post, and that was just a random search using key words. Sure enough, there's your post about Lot getting his daughters "preggers',with the "FFF Fornicate" stuff.

In other words, I came into the forums after years of not posting believing what Angelo said was true. You have had practice developing your unique brand of discussion about Judaism and Christianity, and so you were very prepared to hurl the vile stuff about. You were a veteran at it.

I got sick of your comments about the old testament, new testament, the Jews and their history, Christians and their history, modern day jews and Christians, and on and on. And you weren't the only one doing it. Other members did not like your methods either.

You can split hairs, but your link to that site and other links and media you included in your posts and your personal comments again and again were not to discuss but to inflame. My link to the posters showed a clear case (and I made clear in my posts that my point was to point out JUST ONE interesting example, about usury) of how the charge of usury had been used against Jews for centuries and how the cartoon on the site you linked to contained so very clearly that same charge. Yes, that cartoon segment was very similar to the three posters I linked to, albeit so much supposedly ha ha and "funny" and " cute". Yuk, yuk, yuk.

I also pointed out in my original post how a story in judges, a complex story, had been reduced on that site to a story of graphic "dismemberment". I won't explain again how horribly simplistic that is. Other old testament stories are taken out of context and distorted for effect. Jewish culture, history, and beliefs are distorted. I know you have never read any of the actual old testament accounts, and leaped upon this site as a means to inflame, not discuss. You have a history of that attitude toward religion, long before I entered thev"discussion".

I wanted to discuss. You were a practiced purveyor of inflammatory stuff, and, yes, it took me a while to see your agenda, and that's what it was, an agenda. I should have done the research on how religion is "discussed" on this forum, and your specific tactics, before I did yesterday morning.

I, again, made clear in my original post that I was pointing out the distortions done to the accounts of the history of the Jewish people on that site. It is, among other things, a pornographic distortion, and I think many of your own posts were in their own way the same with the vile perspective you took on Judaism and Christianity.

What, really, is the difference between the cartoon about usury, BRINGING AN OLD TESTAMENT ACCOUNT INTO THE PRESENT, the 21st CENTURY, and three posters from a vile movement in THE PRESENT DAY that DEPICT USURY?

Jews are still depicted as usurers THIS VERY DAY.

I merely pointed this out. I accused you of nothing specifically, and you go back and read my original post.

I do indeed label you as a person who has taken the cheap and tawdry way in a forum that purports to be a place of discussion, and I do maintain that you never wanted to discuss religion, Judaism, and Christianity, and that you have a history of just wanting to pile up on it. My mistake is clear: I thought this forum was a place of discussion, of respect for others' views, that religion was at least given a fair hearing. I was wrong, and if I had bothered to do the research a lot earlier I would have known that far sooner.

I will NO LONGER post about this, mike, our feud. My research yesterday into past years of "discussion" about religion on this forum left me thinking what an utter fool I have been, vainly trying to have a discussion with some members here who have already over years finely honed their "methods". I do feel foolish. And I will continue it no more. Kim
 
I'm gonna say this. I don't read any links by Mike when it comes to religion. The reason is once you start a sentence with "bullshit" and "shove it" and "fairy tale" or whatever, it makes no sense to even think there would be any objectivity. I also, don't read all the links posted by Kim since, well hell to be honest once the link goes over the size of a small book I'm done. :p The fact is that Mike got kind of butt hurt because somebody (Kim) was able to refute some of the cut and paste bullshit that was thrown out there. Now, does he talk to much and go waaay over board. Sure, but if you don't want to read his remarks and diatribes on religion then just don't read it. Sheesh, some of you "openminded" folks sure do close off when it's something that bothers you. Otherwise you (and I've heard ya do it) tell folks that it's a free forum and if you don't like a post or poster then ignore it. Point is that Angel you are guilty of a double standard. The endless post after post by Kim pisses you off. But, the cursing and yelling by Mike? Not so much. :cool: Now, finally before I'm accused of being a "religious retard" or fanatic. Let me say this:
I do not think that you have to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist or even Believe in a higher power to be a wise or good person. I've just been really disapointed at the double standard here. Ezechiel, stated his case without getting (imo) overly nasty. Kim indeed took him to task and was on and on but that's his right. (Excuse me while I step away from my gentile southern upbringing and let my inner redneck speak for a minute.) Mainly, what I'm saying is Don't READ THE F***ING POST if you don't like the poster. But, stop the selfrightous bullshit of condesending junk. Just be honest with yourself. I know I'm not "objective" when it comes to certain things. But, I get a headache when it comes to religion on this board. Cause I know what and who are about to get their nasty on as soon as it starts. Angel, once a long time ago somebody made similar points about Islam that Mike makes about Christianity. You jumped and quited that one down at once. Now, FINALLY you have made a tepid remark about not calling the pope Benny. But, that horse left the barn a long time ago. I'm not Catholic but I have seen a couple of posters come on here and idenify themselves as Catholic. I notice they posted little after that. I wonder why.
 
Tyder, just because you don't see this in the public part of the forum, does not mean I have not discussed it with members through personal messages.
The truth is, you seem to be one of the few people that agrees with Kim on this. Kim is doing his best to prove that the controversy over gay marriage in not because of religion, but since he can't he's resorted to trolling by looking through the forum and bringing up past threads.
You do realize I'm not the only moderator in this forum, right? Why is it being left up to me? No one else seems to have a problem with this and you aren't complaining about it. What's with that double standard?
 
Angel, just because I'm the only one that "voiced" it doesn't mean I'm the only one that agrees or disagrees. Intimidation by cursing and cyber yelling isn't something that some folks desire to get into. Again, please look at the entirety of what I wrote. I think I made my points clear. Other than that I don't know what else to tell you.

Peace.
Steve
 
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