May 9th Show : Moseley and Redfern

[lancemoody]

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[trainedobserver]

Messengers of Deception by Jacques Vallee is essential reading to anyone interested in the subject of contactees and ufo cults.

 

[AdamI]

Just one thought on the show:

The stuff about the contactees moving in "official" circles, about Adamski maybe having some special credentials, etc... that wouldn't surprise me one bit. I've been around charismatic charlatans before, and they often have an uncanny ability to network, self-promote, and worm their way into very high ranking circles. They don't stay there long, but they do often get there.

Some of these guys sound like charismatic delusional psychopaths or manics. Such people can have almost superhuman authority and charisma in person, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them with special access or running around in high level circles. It doesn't really mean anything though... it just means they're good at social tunneling.

 

[trainedobserver]

The stuff about the contactees moving in "official" circles, about Adamski maybe having some special credentials, etc... that wouldn't surprise me one bit. I've been around charismatic charlatans before, and they often have an uncanny ability to network, self-promote, and worm their way into very high ranking circles. They don't stay there long, but they do often get there.

A bit like Rev Moon getting members of Congress to host his crowning ceremony.

 

[AdamI]

A bit like Rev Moon getting members of Congress to host his crowning ceremony.

Exactly. Some people try to use that to link politicians to Moon, but I think it's just a function of Moon's skill at self-promotion. Seriously... charismatic manics and psychopaths are social battering rams. They're like self-promotion savants. It's really hard to describe unless you've seen it in person.

I think what it comes down to is that human beings are suckers for charisma.

 

[CapnG]

I think what it comes down to is that human beings are suckers

Simplified.

That said, one aspect that caught my attention in this week's show was this "soil sample" business. The conclusion of the hosts and guest seems to be that this is a psychological conditioning phenomenon, that people would expect to see alien "astronaughts" collecting soil samples because that's what we did on the moon and as soon as that faded out of the collective conciousness the soil sampling stopped.

What I'm wondering is why we don't seem to want to take it at face value, ie whatever purpose they needed to sample soil for, it was completed and they moved on. Similarily it goes in the abduction phenomenon. Many have said it's likewise sociological and now that the likes of Whitely Strieber and the X-files is outree so too the reports have tapered off. Yet guys like Jacobs and Hopkins assert that main the reason is simply because "the program" has drawn to a close.

It's weird. It's almost as if we're more open to believing these things could be real until we hear an explanation that's relatively mundane (within the context of the subject matter, that is) at which point we dismiss it altogether, as if we can't accept the prosaic fly in our paranormal soup, almost like a supernatural schizophrenia or something.

 

[Experiencer7]

Just one thought on the show:

The stuff about the contactees moving in "official" circles, about Adamski maybe having some special credentials, etc... that wouldn't surprise me one bit. I've been around charismatic charlatans before, and they often have an uncanny ability to network, self-promote, and worm their way into very high ranking circles. They don't stay there long, but they do often get there.

Some of these guys sound like charismatic delusional psychopaths or manics. Such people can have almost superhuman authority and charisma in person, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them with special access or running around in high level circles. It doesn't really mean anything though... it just means they're good at social tunneling.

Grigori Yefimovich Rasputin.

 

[icculus]

Apologize in advance for the negativity, but in my humble opinion, this is simply a boring topic. Why waste time talking about this nonsense? I don't get it.

 

[CapnG]

Apologize in advance for the negativity, but in my humble opinion, this is simply a boring topic. Why waste time talking about this nonsense? I don't get it.

Context is important. Understanding the contactee movement helps put the modern UFO/Abduction enigma in it's proper context.

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

The two parts of the show I enjoyed the most were:

(i) the all-too-brief discussion of 'modern' contactees, those individuals who are not apparently looking for publicity or seeking a cult following; is there important, credible evidence about the phenomenon that is not sufficiently in the public domain because we spend so much time talking about Adamski and a few other coconuts from the 1950s?

(ii) the discussion of the deceptive nature / trickster element to the contactee movement; again, what are some actual reported encounters and how do we analyze those reports (particularly from common individuals not seeking a cult following)? Is the phenomenon somehow reading our consciousness and tailoring itself in part to our expectations? What are the core messages being communicated, and does any of it extend beyond the obvious (e.g., general concern for the environment or nuclear war)?

I have always found interesting Phil Imbrogno's work with Dean Fagerstrom, one of the very few 'alien channelers' whom Imbrogno found to be credible. It would be interesting to compare some of the apparently legitimate modern contactees with Fagerstrom.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

An excellent show and Mr. Redfern did an excellent job co-hosting (maybe it was the accent?) I was quite uncomfortable, yet oddly intrigued when Mr. Moseley related the sheep-sex story.

On a serious note, I did disagree with Nick's comment indicating that all UFO accounts and 'personalities' should be listened to and, in as such, given credit. I believe that people like Adamski and the like create far too much 'noise' within the 'signal' and hoaxers and charlatans such as these hinder the efforts of serious research in this field. Though I do acknowledge there is a entertainment side to UFO research (and paranormal research in general), I believe there are strong dividing lines regarding the serious nature of the study and the sort of goofy, campy entertainment side. For serious researchers, writing books, making DVD's, and attending seminars are critical to bringing in funding in order to perform more research, however there is a shady, cunning side of such; these hoaxers and charlatans who craft stories and fabricate 'knowledge, and pawn it off as serious search as well. When we, as Nick implies, listen to these people and give them a forum, they feed off of that and shout louder and louder until the more legitimate research is drowned out. Another negative effect of the BS some of these type of people create is it clearly mars the opinion in an already-negatively-biased public. Individuals with outrageous stories and claims, easily dis-proven or argued against, do nothing to the creditability of this field of study and indeed only stamp it's worth down further.

I strongly believe that filters need to be in place that allow us to weed out the BS'ers and elevate the more serious researchers and their findings.

My 2 cents.

 

[Kieran]

I've a funny feeling, The people who have alleged contact, probably watched far too much of the early black and white tv SCI-FI movies and got carried away with it all. These movies came from studio's in America, and were made primarily in the fifties and later i believe.

Some of these Aliens were monster looking creatures and some of these Aliens looked like you or me and the usually came from Mars or Jupiter as i recall," yes'.. i have seen a few of this movie's in the past, "but i never have been contacted by an Alien being thank God. Knowing me as i do, i would shit my pants if an alien being came into my life

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

I've a funny feeling, The people who have alleged contact, probably watched far too much of the early black and white tv SCI-FI movies and got carried away with it all. These movies came from studio's in America, and were made primarily in the fifties and later i believe.

Some of these Aliens were monster looking creatures and some of these Aliens looked like you or me and the usually came from Mars or Jupiter as i recall," yes'.. i have seen a few of this movie's in the past, "but i never have been contacted by an Alien being thank God. Knowing me as i do, i would shit my pants if an alien being came into my life

Hi Kieran,
I nearly did shit my pants with the two hodded creatures wearing black snake skin clothing or suits. No faces just dark shadows. Furthermore, the long finger nail running down my back while lying in bed reading on my own ws f....... frighting indeed. No I was not on any medications or anything else. Just one of those unexplained encounters with strange awarness.

 

[Kieran]

Hi Kieran,
I nearly did shit my pants with the two hodded creatures wearing black snake skin clothing or suits. No faces just dark shadows. Furthermore, the long finger nail running down my back while lying in bed reading on my own ws f....... frighting indeed. No I was not on any medications or anything else. Just one of those unexplained encounters with strange awarness.

I don't discount anyone's experience Blowfish, but realistically, i can't accept a story on word alone, yet remember, i not saying your telling me a lie here. I just don't know you personally to confirm your story.

 

[Jeff Crowell]

I, too, have a quick question about your encounter, Blowfish; if you were laying on the bed, presumably on your stomach, reading, and felt something on your back, how do you know it was a fingernail? Did you turn around and see anything there? What time was the encounter?

 

[Hoffmeister]

One of the best shows in a while imo. First of all, the story about the Sheep was one of the funniest moments in paracast history....in fact the only moment that made me laugh more was Don Eckers description (in his first interview i believe) of how he felt about Jim Moseley (see favourite show moments thread for more on this).
I nearly crashed my car i was laughing so much.

You know, some people say there is nothing gained by talking about this topic, and before I ever heard Nick talk about it I thought the same.... but upon listening to him it turns out he has made the subject really interesting. You might say what do we gain from it..... but what do we gain from talking about ANY of the paranormal?? At least there are FBI files etc to give it some grounding in truth.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

I, too, have a quick question about your encounter, Blowfish; if you were laying on the bed, presumably on your stomach, reading, and felt something on your back, how do you know it was a fingernail? Did you turn around and see anything there? What time was the encounter?

Hi Kieran & Sandanfire,
I was lying on my back actually the finger came through the bed and ran down my back and the time was about 8:00pm because I had the radio on. I don't care if you think its true or not just telling a true story. I don't mean to be rude at all and encourage anyone to question that what its all about.

Peace,
Blowfish

 

[Simonemendez]

Exactly. Seriously... charismatic manics and psychopaths are social battering rams. They're like self-promotion savants. It's really hard to describe unless you've seen it in person.

I think what it comes down to is that human beings are suckers for charisma.

This is an extremely important observation of yours. I came up against a CLASSIC CLINICAL Narcissistic Personality Disorder type ("Me me, it's what ---I--- want and need, gimmee, I DEMAND that you gimmee, and say what?! Now you are reacting badly as a result? How could you?! What have I ever done to you?! How can I ever trust you?!") Etcetera. And to ad insult to injury, .."Look, I realize you'v had a lot of problems (like being homeless for 5 years, From Someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth) but come on, already!" But everyone else worships this individual,
while he walks on water, of course.
I just ---cringe--- at the thought of sounding like I'm revenge bashing < if I was, I'd say this person's identity) it's-just-that Hero Worship in Ufology, can blind people to the TRUE 'Ology of Ufo, which is to try and learn what is really going on. Especially if the Charismatic One, is becoming swept away, by glory.

 

[AdamI]

This is an extremely important observation of yours. I came up against a CLASSIC CLINICAL Narcissistic Personality Disorder type ("Me me, it's what ---I--- want and need, gimmee, I DEMAND that you gimmee, and say what?! Now you are reacting badly as a result? How could you?! What have I ever done to you?! How can I ever trust you?!") Etcetera. And to ad insult to injury, .."Look, I realize you'v had a lot of problems (like being homeless for 5 years, From Someone who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth) but come on, already!" But everyone else worships this individual,
while he walks on water, of course.
I just ---cringe--- at the thought of sounding like I'm revenge bashing < if I was, I'd say this person's identity) it's-just-that Hero Worship in Ufology, can blind people to the TRUE 'Ology of Ufo, which is to try and learn what is really going on. Especially if the Charismatic One, is becoming swept away, by glory.

Yes, I've had that experience too. The thing that blew me away was watching how people enthusiastically fell in line behind this individual. It's like there's some unconscious process in which we recognize narcissists and psychopaths as leaders, obey them, and just fall into line behind them instantly.

Of all the things I've seen in my life, that probably damaged my faith in the human race more than anything else. It really made me think things like "are we just like the social insects, and are psychopaths just the 'queen bees' of the hive? Could it actually be within our nature to recognize psychopaths and narcissists as leaders?"

It does seem to wear off after a while though, at least for most people. A less depressing / cynical interpretation would be that we're just not accustomed to dealing with people like this on a routine basis. We're accustomed to people that send normal signals, not people that send always-on always-right always-dominant signals. I've found that once I was exposed, it's sort of like I'm inoculated now. When I run into narcissistic and psychopathic types now, they don't have much of an effect on me.

It's funny though... being immunized seems to make you unpopular sometimes. The narcissist or psychopath will sometimes get enthusiastically defended, and you'll look like the bad guy. Why would you have something against someone so charming and accomplished?!? I sort of see The Paracast as playing that role in the paranormal community, given how much flak they've received for debunking people who are obviously con artists and lunatics with delusions of grandeur.

But some people don't get immunized. I've seen that too. There also seems to be a substantial group of people who see such individuals as useful. I've noticed that sometimes experienced people who really do know better will play into the delusions and the manipulation for reasons that I sometimes can't figure out. Maybe they figure they can use the charisma to their benefit... in a sense turning the tables and using the user. I find that scummy too, and personally just distance myself. It's just another kind of abuse and manipulation. You are really just taking advantage of someone because they are mentally ill.

But remember... the charisma, the ability to induce excitement, the appeal, and the presence is because they are crazy. It is a side effect of a mental illness. As an analogy, consider that there are genetic muscular disorders that give you superhuman strength... at the expense of a shortened life span due to cardiovascular problems. These guys have superhuman charisma at the expense of rational thought, long term planning ability, and empathy.

P.S. I don't think you're revenge-bashing. As you noticed, I did not name any names either. Have you noticed that even discussing this subject makes people uncomfortable? It's sort of odd, since knowing about this ought to be something that everyone tells each other as a cautionary tale.

 

[Simonemendez]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, AdamI for your refreshing ---SANITY--- here. Being in (Any) Ufo chat forum often makes me feel like I am in a mental institution, from the pre-1950s ('Cookoos Nest'). It feels so incredibly g*d-d****d-GOOD, to encounter someone who understands, doesn't it? I'm SICK AND TIRED of feeling like I am the bad guy, in UfoDumb. And you are SMART for a change, as well. How refreshing is that, in a Ufo chat forum?

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 PM ----------

P.S. I don't think you're revenge-bashing. As you noticed, I did not name any names either. Have you noticed that even discussing this subject makes people uncomfortable? It's sort of odd, since knowing about this ought to be something that everyone tells each other as a cautionary tale.

THANK YOU. Again. I recall, when I tried to whistleblow awhile back, someone said, "That makes me uncomfortable."

Now----I have found, that, when I am uncofortable, I merely change my underthings to clean and dry new things, and baby powder and stuff, and then feel alllllllllll better. Maybe others should try it, before they dislike my post.