James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[James Carrion]

So we don't have to see if your theory is correct it's already out there as fact:
UFO Alien Alleged Military Deception 42714 | UFO Sightings|UFO News 2014

New York UFO: UFO Alien Alleged Military Deception Former head of MUFON, James Carrion has a new book out, he's claiming that the US and UK created UFO myth as part of a deception tactic in the opening salvos of the Cold War. "The Ghost Rocket wave of 1946 was part and parcel of this deception. Yes, US and UK taxpayers, your Governments created the UFO myth - all in the name of national security. Source: Special Thankx to our friend Norio Hayakawa Follow The Magic Thread: The Rosetta Deception
Gotta love how years of study by other folks gets tossed out the window overnight by one sensational book that's just been released.
Norio will be your new best friend.

I am sorry, who's years of UFO research on the Ghost Rockets? Or do you mean all of the other UFO non-ghost rocket events?

 

[James Carrion]

James,
Folks will still buy your book and hey Stan just had a heart attack and surely you would understand the term give a bloke a break as life to short ! and both work together ! Furthermore, the Rocket story did you trace any documentation to Argentina or Brazil while doing your research?

Nothing Argentina or Brazil so far. And why in God's creation is Stan Friedman getting on Internet Radio stirring up the hornet's nest with defamatory commentary when he should be in bed resting....if I were his doctor, I would be up in arms...
Oh and did I mention no one should be buying my book who doesn't mind reading it for free on their computer monitor?

 

[James Carrion]

Also curious about this article http://www.mudcat.org/thread_pf.cfm?threadid=133416 that shows a very similar phenomenon in the 1930's. It provided the same level of scrutiny by the Swedes as the 1946 deal.

It is interesting as it shows similar to the Ghost Rockets, sightings of "not so sophisticated to warrant interstellar travel" craft being sighted as well as the geopolitical fears that were prevalent. This time frame warrants its own discreet research....so which of you armchair warriors out there are going to get out of their armchair and take up the challenge?

 

[manxman]

What about the Whitesand's bogey's, in april 49 and april 50, where the same UAP's were recorded, by radar, theodolite, film, and expertly trained observers, stationed at 3 site's to observe the balloon test's, with the triangulation making the data rock solid, were they psy-ops jame's.

 

[Ufocurious]

James
Is this guy still there?
Follow The Magic Thread: August 2009

My name is James Carrion ... My hope is that this will be a safe haven for critical minds and a guidebook for navigating the labyrinth of the UFO Subject while maintaining one's sanity.
...
There is an ultimate truth to the UFO Phenomenon, but it will require that like Theseus you unravel a magic thread along your own journey so you can retrace your steps through the UFO labyrinth and emerge with a sound mind and with that ultimate truth in hand.

I do hope so.
And please, do discuss the Koran with Muslims, the Bible with Christians, and UFOs made by man with UFO believers, which, BTW, I am one of them.
I believe that only by discussing, arguing, and changing our minds in bits here or there, we can get closer to the elusive truth.

 

[James Carrion]

What about the Whitesand's bogey's, in april 49 and april 50, where the same UAP's were recorded, by radar, theodolite, film, and expertly trained observers, stationed at 3 site's to observe the balloon test's, with the triangulation making the data rock solid, were they psy-ops jame's.

Bucket argument...nothing to do with 1946 Ghost Rockets...

 

[manxman]

Bucket arguement ?, arguement >?

data so good they could determine the width of each UAP to 30ft diameter, height 56 miles.

Or as near an admittance by the Airforce as one will ever get, that they observed, tracked, filmed, and witnessed, 4 bogeys not of human construct, flying in formation.

 

[Constance]

Whoever said anything about dealing a death blow to UFO research?

That wasn't what I said. I said I have the impression that you hope your research on the ghost rockets and subsequent Roswell research you plan to publish will deal a death blow "to the rest of ufo research leading to the ETH." I'm not the only one here (or elsewhere) that has the impression that this is your goal. Indeed, you quoted Stan Friedman in your post #215 as observing "One would think that the Ghost Rockets as portrayed by James in his book are the sum total for ufology. I don't buy it." That is the impression you give.

Why do you feel so threatened if a period of events that has traditionally been thought to be UFO related is explained away using official documentation?

I don't feel threatened at all by that possibility, whether or not it turns out to be valid. I doubt that anyone else is threatened by it either. You make your animus perfectly clear in the following paragraph:

. . . if a UFO event is explained as mundane, the UFO crowd closes ranks and get all prickly because they feel their world growing smaller and their beliefs threatened. It is why Ufology is equated to a belief system - just like you don't mess with the Bible when you are among Christians or the Koran when you are among Muslims, God or Allah forbid you mess with UFO belief when you are among believers.

You do get carried away. "Ufology is equated to a belief system" only by people who do not recognize the depth and detail of the past 65 years of ufo research and the discussions and debates that have gone on among ufo researchers during the entire length of that time.

Also I take it you and all the other Stan supporters here have read my book when you say "without persuasive and comprehensive evidence"?

No, I haven't read it yet, but I doubt it can be comprehensive if it covers only two years of the ghost rocket phenomena, which went on for more than ten years. And if it isn't comprehensive, how can it be persuasive? Still, I'll read it.

Not that it matters as it would go in one ear and out the other just like a creationist reading Darwin's On the Origin of Species.

The continuing contempt you express for us 'believers' is not going to help garner a readership for you.

 

[James Carrion]

James
Is this guy still there?
Follow The Magic Thread: August 2009

My name is James Carrion ... My hope is that this will be a safe haven for critical minds and a guidebook for navigating the labyrinth of the UFO Subject while maintaining one's sanity.
...
There is an ultimate truth to the UFO Phenomenon, but it will require that like Theseus you unravel a magic thread along your own journey so you can retrace your steps through the UFO labyrinth and emerge with a sound mind and with that ultimate truth in hand.

I do hope so.
And please, do discuss the Koran with Muslims, the Bible with Christians, and UFOs made by man with UFO believers, which, BTW, I am one of them.
I believe that only by discussing, arguing, and changing our minds in bits here or there, we can get closer to the elusive truth.

Yep, I am still here ... and as convinced as ever that truth should be pursued, not by proxy through other's research, but through independent research of your own...but that requires a sound framework of investigation through compartmentalization ...

There is a spectrum of belief in this field with "true believers" on one end and "true debunkers" on the other end of the spectrum. It is in the sober middle where the breakthroughs will come...the folks on the extreme ends already have their minds made up...

More important, even if you are a healthy skeptic with an open mind, if you don't recognize the human hand of deception in the field, that hand will slap you across the face and towards one of the extremes of the spectrum...

 

[James Carrion]

Bucket arguement ?, arguement >?

data so good they could determine the width of each UAP to 30ft diameter, height 56 miles.

Or as near an admittance by the Airforce as one will ever get, that they observed, tracked, filmed, and witnessed, 4 bogeys not of human construct, flying in formation.

Gene, can you please move manxman's post to the Whitesand's thread...

 

[manxman]

Jame's.

It is quite simple, i am asking were the 2 whitesand's event's psy-op's, its the same time period all this cold war malarky took place, if you dont know, an opinion will suffice..

 

[James Carrion]

That wasn't what I said. I said I have the impression that you hope your research on the ghost rockets and subsequent Roswell research you plan to publish will deal a death blow "to the rest of ufo research leading to the ETH." I'm not the only one here (or elsewhere) that has the impression that this is your goal. Indeed, you quoted Stan Friedman in your post #215 as observing "One would think that the Ghost Rockets as portrayed by James in his book are the sum total for ufology. I don't buy it." That is the impression you give.

I don't feel threatened at all by that possibility, whether or not it turns out to be valid. I doubt that anyone else is threatened by it either. You make your animus perfectly clear in the following paragraph:

You do get carried away. "Ufology is equated to a belief system" only by people who do not recognize the depth and detail of the past 65 years of ufo research and the discussions and debates that have gone on among ufo researchers during the entire length of that time.

No, I haven't read it yet, but I doubt it can be comprehensive if it covers only two years of the ghost rocket phenomena, which went on for more than ten years. And if it isn't comprehensive, how can it be persuasive? Still, I'll read it.

The continuing contempt you express for us 'believers' is not going to help garner a readership for you.

I hope my research will show how dangerous human deception is to human society and has nothing to do with ETH. Did you even listen to my interview on the Paracast? I stated very clearly that I believe that the possibility of there NOT being intelligent life in the Universe is nil. There is life out there. What you call ETH is the hypothesis that some of that intelligent life is visiting earth - today or in the past. I don't discount this as a possibility AT ALL. If your "impression" is that I am somehow crashing down the Ufology house by explaining away the Ghost Rockets or Roswell...you are way off base...and betrays that you are threatened by my research..

Yes, I do have contempt for those at the opposite ends of the spectrum of UFO belief..."believers" and "debunkers" alike because trying to convince them to adopt healthy skepticism and critical thinking is an exercise in futility... I have given up on that many years ago...but why I continue to answer your defensive posts is because lurking on this forum are those whose minds have not been made up and who are not looking for confirmation of belief but instead for guidance to navigate the murky waters muddied by human hands..

Ten years of Ghost Rockets? Care to cite your sources for this?

 

[James Carrion]

Jame's.

It is quite simple, i am asking were the 2 whitesand's event's psy-op's, its the same time period all this cold war malarky took place, if you dont know, an opinion will suffice..

I don't know Manxman, or whatever your real name is, I haven't gotten that far in my research. Why not get out of your armchair and research that for me and report back to this forum with your documented findings. Warning, that may take more effort than typing out your trolling questions on your keyboard...

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Well James I bought your book and enjoying another perspective on this crazy field which some have heavily invested their lives. Maybe us younger generations need sometimes to give other a chance if they can't be bothered to read your book it there lost. Keep searching for the evidence. South America and South Africa is another aspect of this story needs more research.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

I am sorry, who's years of UFO research on the Ghost Rockets? Or do you mean all of the other UFO non-ghost rocket events?

Sounds like the early sightings, in the 30's was the Swedish Government and in the 40's also included the British , U.S, Greece and some of the other Scandinavian countrys. So if I understand correctly , if this was just mass hysteria planted by the U.S, either some or all of these country's were aware or they were duped too?

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

That wasn't what I said. I said I have the impression that you hope your research on the ghost rockets and subsequent Roswell research you plan to publish will deal a death blow "to the rest of ufo research leading to the ETH." I'm not the only one here (or elsewhere) that has the impression that this is your goal. Indeed, you quoted Stan Friedman in your post #215 as observing "One would think that the Ghost Rockets as portrayed by James in his book are the sum total for ufology. I don't buy it." That is the impression you give.



I don't feel threatened at all by that possibility, whether or not it turns out to be valid. I doubt that anyone else is threatened by it either. You make your animus perfectly clear in the following paragraph:



You do get carried away. "Ufology is equated to a belief system" only by people who do not recognize the depth and detail of the past 65 years of ufo research and the discussions and debates that have gone on among ufo researchers during the entire length of that time.



No, I haven't read it yet, but I doubt it can be comprehensive if it covers only two years of the ghost rocket phenomena, which went on for more than ten years. And if it isn't comprehensive, how can it be persuasive? Still, I'll read it.



The continuing contempt you express for us 'believers' is not going to help garner a readership for you.

I'm glad you've brought this up Constance. Through just a casual internet search I've come to realize that the mission for Mr. Carrion seems to be deep set on disproving the bulk of UFO culture by taking each case one by one and dismantling it. Although there's a place for this I'm not sure the mind set is helpful.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

It is interesting as it shows similar to the Ghost Rockets, sightings of "not so sophisticated to warrant interstellar travel" craft being sighted as well as the geopolitical fears that were prevalent. This time frame warrants its own discreet research....so which of you armchair warriors out there are going to get out of their armchair and take up the challenge?

How do you separate these two events? I understand that as a researcher you would need to have conclusive evidence from both time frames to link them, so what made you ignore this time frame in the 30's?

UFO report files :: Archives For the Unexplained
The UFO-Sweden/AFU report archives also include paper copies of some 3.000 Swedish UFO reports from 1933-34 (ghost flier wave), 1936-37 (second ghost flier wave), 1946 (ghost rockets) and from 1947 up to the present. The combined defence files (except the 1930s ghost fliers) also exist as digitised copies made by the FOI (Swedish Defence Research Agency) and Krigsarkivet (The Military Archives of Sweden).

 

[Wade]

How do you separate these two events? I understand that as a researcher you would need to have conclusive evidence from both time frames to link them, so what made you ignore this time frame in the 30's?

UFO report files :: Archives For the Unexplained
The UFO-Sweden/AFU report archives also include paper copies of some 3.000 Swedish UFO reports from 1933-34 (ghost flier wave), 1936-37 (second ghost flier wave), 1946 (ghost rockets) and from 1947 up to the present. The combined defence files (except the 1930s ghost fliers) also exist as digitised copies made by the FOI (Swedish Defence Research Agency) and Krigsarkivet (The Military Archives of Sweden).

I don't pretend to think I know James answer, or answer for him but I would suggest he didn't ignore it, on the show and in a few posts earlier he did acknowledge that there is still room for other explanations, but he found evidence there was clear deception in a number of cases in a particular time frame and he chose to tackle that. As to whether he needs to acknowledge up front that there could very well be other worldly reasons in a different time frame I don't think the onus is on him to do so, ( I haven't read either the online or ebook yet ) but i would point out that Walter Bosley took the same tack in his books when he offered up a more pragmatic explanation about the 1880 ' s airships phenomena and there certainly wasn't as big an outcry against it as there is here in this thread.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

We do need to get Bosley back on here. He shows up in the forums from time to time.

 

[Wade]

We do need to get Bosley back on here. He shows up in the forums from time to time.

I bear no animosity towards Walter for busting my balloons on the airship mystery because he pays a lot of lip service towards synchronicity. Now if James should ever claim to have uncovered some government deception towards false synchronicity events you'll probably see a lot of posts in here from moi.