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James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014
- Thread starter wwkirk
- Start date
I think it was all definitely a wake-up call for him.
As Jack Nicholson said, when he played the Joker in Batman:
You could say the same for the UFO field.
As Jack Nicholson said, when he played the Joker in Batman:
You could say the same for the UFO field.
Han
piscator ψ
On a scale of 1-10 I give this episode 11!
I have not read the book so the following information might be included in it, but I feel relevant to the bigger picture:
When the Enigma code was broken a new problem emerged, this problem was how to use deciphered information in a way that maintained the illusion that the code remained "secret" That is to say the last thing that the Allies wanted to do was to let the Axis know that they had broken their code.
Many, many difficult decisions were made, including those that resulted in preventable deaths of allied servicemen (and women), agents and the loss of equipment to maintain the Allies secret.
It is important to note that although the Allies provided Russia with excellent and accurate information as to German Battle plans, unit strengths and capabilities they never revealed their source, instead they attributed the "information" to various real and fictitious spies or agents!
In a nutshell during the latter stages of the European/African conflict Allied commanders had as good and sometimes a better "picture" of German logistics, plans and orders than the Germans themselves meaning that they (the Allies) had scope for all sorts of manipulation and could check how effective it was in real time (PSYOP/Psychological warfare)
To my mind this demonstrates that the "Nazis" were nowhere near as advanced as seems to be the popular conception, they were in fact deeply flawed in their belief that they were "superior", the "unbreakable" Enigma code is typical of this kind of thinking.
To summarise the Nazi's brought a high visibility jacket and matching megaphone to a cloak and dagger fight.
I would love to hear MR Carrion on the Paracast again.
Thank you and best wishes.
I have not read the book so the following information might be included in it, but I feel relevant to the bigger picture:
When the Enigma code was broken a new problem emerged, this problem was how to use deciphered information in a way that maintained the illusion that the code remained "secret" That is to say the last thing that the Allies wanted to do was to let the Axis know that they had broken their code.
Many, many difficult decisions were made, including those that resulted in preventable deaths of allied servicemen (and women), agents and the loss of equipment to maintain the Allies secret.
It is important to note that although the Allies provided Russia with excellent and accurate information as to German Battle plans, unit strengths and capabilities they never revealed their source, instead they attributed the "information" to various real and fictitious spies or agents!
In a nutshell during the latter stages of the European/African conflict Allied commanders had as good and sometimes a better "picture" of German logistics, plans and orders than the Germans themselves meaning that they (the Allies) had scope for all sorts of manipulation and could check how effective it was in real time (PSYOP/Psychological warfare)
To my mind this demonstrates that the "Nazis" were nowhere near as advanced as seems to be the popular conception, they were in fact deeply flawed in their belief that they were "superior", the "unbreakable" Enigma code is typical of this kind of thinking.
To summarise the Nazi's brought a high visibility jacket and matching megaphone to a cloak and dagger fight.
I would love to hear MR Carrion on the Paracast again.
Thank you and best wishes.
DissectionStalker
Paranormal Adept
To Gene and Chris:
Those guys want to slice and dice me over there! I guess my Avatar "screen name" might protect me a bit longer.
Ok, ok, you're right... I've been "too harsh" and "a bot" ...but I can still change, maybe, hopefully... and improve my manners. (I am trying to do just that.)
You know, your show is soooo damn good it just blows away the others... its what C2C and Art Bell should have become. You're the best. I'm truly amazed at the reservoir of knowledge you both have and can share effectively too!
James Carrion is exactly the kind of guest you should keep having over and over. What an excellent "outside the box" thinker that I think is solving some real ufology mysteries.
James, I sincerely thank you for your excellent research and serious contributions. Wonderful and interesting.
Those guys want to slice and dice me over there! I guess my Avatar "screen name" might protect me a bit longer.
Ok, ok, you're right... I've been "too harsh" and "a bot" ...but I can still change, maybe, hopefully... and improve my manners. (I am trying to do just that.)
You know, your show is soooo damn good it just blows away the others... its what C2C and Art Bell should have become. You're the best. I'm truly amazed at the reservoir of knowledge you both have and can share effectively too!
James Carrion is exactly the kind of guest you should keep having over and over. What an excellent "outside the box" thinker that I think is solving some real ufology mysteries.
James, I sincerely thank you for your excellent research and serious contributions. Wonderful and interesting.
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Polterwurst
Paranormal Adept
I really think he might have solved the ghost rocket mystery at least, but I don't believe that the statements of the pilots in the 2007 National press club conference and the (ex-) military personnel in 2010 were part of an ongoing deception programme. These people definitely saw something extraordinary.
But it was highly interesting to hear about (post) WW II intelligence service methods and it does make one look at cases like the Arnold sighting, Maury Island and Roswell from a new perspective.
But it was highly interesting to hear about (post) WW II intelligence service methods and it does make one look at cases like the Arnold sighting, Maury Island and Roswell from a new perspective.
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I have to agree completely with DissectionStalker. I thought Jim Carrion and Gene and Chris were EXCELLENT in this show, and I mean it.
Jim managed to provide a plausible reason Maury Island was a psy-op. In support of his thinking, I remember two details from Maury:
1) The two counter-intelligence agents suddenly became unenamored of the entire affair after huddling with Crisman at the Hotel Winthrop. It would have been trivial for Crisman to use "spook cant" to let them know this was a deception campaign without Arnold and his fellow pilot in the same room catching on.
2) The "deep throat" in touch with the United Press and Tacoma Times reporters in his final telephone conversations said his job was done, he had managed to get people/newspapers "back east" to pick up the story. This means the phrase "flying saucer" or somesuch had made a splash and could be counted upon to enter encrypted Soviet diplomatic traffic, as Carrion noted, becoming a keyword for deciphering efforts. I thought the Verona (Venona?) code-breaking effort was already accomplished by summer of '47 though.
On a different note, Carrion seemed to me to contradict himself: early on in the interview he said he hadn't investigated the abduction phenomenon enough to speak intelligently about it iirc, but well into the second half of the show he said he DID investigate several abduction cases and found them compelling as sincere experience if not empirical truth. I might have "misremembered" this, but that's how I heard it (without taking the trouble to go back and relisten and post exact time-codes).
Obviously if Crisman in the Maury Island case was involved in a deception campaign, and that would explain why Harold Dahl called him his superior although Dahl owned the vessel upon which he supposedly witnessed the UFO event, then it makes some sort of sense that Garrison, the FBI agent in Tacoma at the time iirc, would decades later flash back upon Crisman as a military intelligence asset associated with Banister, who was nominally an FBI SAC stationed in Boise at the same time iirc.
It's hard to imagine what the "deception campaign" might have been at Malmstrom AFB/missile command. Perhaps it emanated from the other side?
Very interesting. I had to agree when he spoke about the lack of transparency at Skinwalker and MUFON board.
Jim managed to provide a plausible reason Maury Island was a psy-op. In support of his thinking, I remember two details from Maury:
1) The two counter-intelligence agents suddenly became unenamored of the entire affair after huddling with Crisman at the Hotel Winthrop. It would have been trivial for Crisman to use "spook cant" to let them know this was a deception campaign without Arnold and his fellow pilot in the same room catching on.
2) The "deep throat" in touch with the United Press and Tacoma Times reporters in his final telephone conversations said his job was done, he had managed to get people/newspapers "back east" to pick up the story. This means the phrase "flying saucer" or somesuch had made a splash and could be counted upon to enter encrypted Soviet diplomatic traffic, as Carrion noted, becoming a keyword for deciphering efforts. I thought the Verona (Venona?) code-breaking effort was already accomplished by summer of '47 though.
On a different note, Carrion seemed to me to contradict himself: early on in the interview he said he hadn't investigated the abduction phenomenon enough to speak intelligently about it iirc, but well into the second half of the show he said he DID investigate several abduction cases and found them compelling as sincere experience if not empirical truth. I might have "misremembered" this, but that's how I heard it (without taking the trouble to go back and relisten and post exact time-codes).
Obviously if Crisman in the Maury Island case was involved in a deception campaign, and that would explain why Harold Dahl called him his superior although Dahl owned the vessel upon which he supposedly witnessed the UFO event, then it makes some sort of sense that Garrison, the FBI agent in Tacoma at the time iirc, would decades later flash back upon Crisman as a military intelligence asset associated with Banister, who was nominally an FBI SAC stationed in Boise at the same time iirc.
It's hard to imagine what the "deception campaign" might have been at Malmstrom AFB/missile command. Perhaps it emanated from the other side?
Very interesting. I had to agree when he spoke about the lack of transparency at Skinwalker and MUFON board.
JeanLucPicard
Paranormal Maven
HI, IM JEAN LUC PICARD AND I LIKED THE SHOW.
Ufocurious
Paranormal Maven
Great show. The guy is eloquent and bright. However, the layers of deception he presented just makes one more curious than ever. As someone that has seen UFOs, and has no idea what they are, I wonder what was behind the deception, if it really is the case. I can only think of two options:
- Was the US govt trying to build a smoke curtain to cover up the real phenomena?
- Have they created a hype in order to discover if the phenomena was made up by one of their enemies?
Ufocurious
Paranormal Maven
Just read my post. I should read the book first. LOL
Ufocurious
Paranormal Maven
James Carrion
First, I want to apologize if you think my earlier post is a bit rude. Like you, I don't take stories as truth. In addition I have been trained to do research with phenomenology and narratives.
I took the time to read your blog. You are very intelligent, and write as well as you speak. I understood why you had to take this approach. IT ALL MADE SENSE. Ufology is full of junk, However the truth is hiding itself somewhere within the junk pile.
I do have the uttermost respect to people like you, who take the time and effort to search for the truth. I am the lazy one who waits for the fruit of your work.
I admire you because you have not seen UFOs and I guess you have not had paranormal experiences either. It is a gigantic leap of faith to go after the UFO truth. Gevaerd (UFO magazine) only saw some lights once or twice, but is an amazing researcher. I guess you two are alike in that. However, Gevaerd is surrounded but not so clear characters, and seems you got rid of them.
Congratulations. I will read your books and check your references.
I will get delighted if I come to the conclusion that Uncle Sam really took the green men path without knowing beforehand they were already here.
First, I want to apologize if you think my earlier post is a bit rude. Like you, I don't take stories as truth. In addition I have been trained to do research with phenomenology and narratives.
I took the time to read your blog. You are very intelligent, and write as well as you speak. I understood why you had to take this approach. IT ALL MADE SENSE. Ufology is full of junk, However the truth is hiding itself somewhere within the junk pile.
I do have the uttermost respect to people like you, who take the time and effort to search for the truth. I am the lazy one who waits for the fruit of your work.
I admire you because you have not seen UFOs and I guess you have not had paranormal experiences either. It is a gigantic leap of faith to go after the UFO truth. Gevaerd (UFO magazine) only saw some lights once or twice, but is an amazing researcher. I guess you two are alike in that. However, Gevaerd is surrounded but not so clear characters, and seems you got rid of them.
Congratulations. I will read your books and check your references.
I will get delighted if I come to the conclusion that Uncle Sam really took the green men path without knowing beforehand they were already here.
ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
Currently listening to the show agree this puts cats among the piegons ! and enjoying the research on the Rockets like to see what Mich Hanks comes back with in his next book? Still think a good way to cover is fire off a few yourself to cover is well tested method some would suggest?
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Vance
Skilled Investigator
I like that "cat among the pigeons" phrase. Expected more excitement on the forum after so many holy cows were mutilated. James has clearly done his research and reached plausible conclusions. May his tribe increase.
Burnt State
Paranormal Adept
Well especially after the recent Skinwalker episode exploded around the veracity of paranormal activity vs. psyops on the forum. You'd think there'd be much more criticism of Carrion's position. After all, he's continuing the theme of Mirage Men & that much of what we think we know about UFO's and their history has been manufactured consciously and unconsiously by disinfo agents of all stripes - the perpetuators of stories perhaps doing the most collective damage.
To hear Carrion's take on the situation, the history of MUFON & its shady Bigelow shenanigans, is to encounter more of a polar extreme compared to the warm fuzzy "what ifs" that usually populates the discussion. I found him to be refreshingly critical. But in every piece of paranormal history there's always some skeletons, hurt feelings & buried stories to expose. I wish this episode could have continued past the Ghost Rockets and into more of a developed look at the history and role of deception in ufology.
Polterwurst
Paranormal Adept
I guess most forum members just aren't of the true UFO/ETH/Roswell believer crowd. Judging from my own opinion, I've always thought that a big part of Ufology is exaggeration, myth-making, and, yes, deception, although I thought it was probably coming from "non-professional" deceivers (charlatans, hoaxers and money-makers). Carrion's research and the comparison with secret service methods during and after WW II shows that there could be more connections here than I thought.
Secondly, the true believers are probably just going to ignore the book, as they have done in other cases, so I wouldn't expect too much excitement there.
But, again, I think there are definetly enough credible sighting reports to say that it's not all deception and myth-making. The 2007 and 2010 National Press Conference statements and things like COMETA or Leslie Keans book are probably mostly deception-free, I guess.
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ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM
Whittingham
We'll currently reading the late Mr Terry Hansen book Missing Times would of been great if Mr James Carrion had done a book together ? Now Lance I will not throw the baby out with the bath water as of yet ! and stranger as seems still think more to come from better cases such as Bentwaters and future events of strange awareness .
Pegusta
Skilled Investigator
Great show overall, with some seriously thought provoking issues discussed. Carrion displays both a great deal of integrity and courage broaching these points. We need more of that bold and creative thinking in this field. Not to mention his thorough research work, in digging up facts and connecting dots. Kudos!
I remain a a bit skeptical that his conclusions regarding the 1946-1947 wave could be applied to encompassing the entire history of the phenomenon. As he has pointed out, it is a complex picture we have to decipher. And I really like that he himself does not come across as presenting the definitive answer.
As one listener pointed out in one question though, it would have been highly motivated to contact Ufo Sweden, and perhaps Clas Svahn in particular considering his expertise in ghost rockets. Perhaps something for a later book, or even a second edition? Carrion made a good point however regarding logistical difficulties.
Another good show though. Kudos to you as well Gene and Chris!
I remain a a bit skeptical that his conclusions regarding the 1946-1947 wave could be applied to encompassing the entire history of the phenomenon. As he has pointed out, it is a complex picture we have to decipher. And I really like that he himself does not come across as presenting the definitive answer.
As one listener pointed out in one question though, it would have been highly motivated to contact Ufo Sweden, and perhaps Clas Svahn in particular considering his expertise in ghost rockets. Perhaps something for a later book, or even a second edition? Carrion made a good point however regarding logistical difficulties.
Another good show though. Kudos to you as well Gene and Chris!
Charlie Prime
Paranormal Adept
I enjoyed the part where Carrion asserted the Conspiracy Theory that media editors work with intelligence agencies to run psychological operations and Gene was having none of it. He was all in until then.
Carrion makes a pretty good argument for his deception theories, but I find it strange virtually no ex military personnel that I know of have claimed knowledge of these deceptions and if Roswell was a deception against the Russians why wouldn't the military just say so. I don't see what the military would have to gain after all these years by not just admitting they were deceptions.