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Imbrogno & Guiley Show



J.T.

Maybe Logic
First off, I was extremely happy to hear Anomalist Books sponsoring the show. They publish GREAT books, and their Anomalist News service is my favorite daily Fortean compendium of news.
Check out THE ANOMALIST: World News on UFOs, Bigfoot, the Paranormal, and Other Mysteries at the Edge of Science

Now for the episode: A very entertaining show. I take the stories with a dose of salt, and the various levels of belief associated with the authors is a bit heavy to my mind… if they could only preface their statements with "it appears" or "the stories tell that..," but no. They talk of the Djinn intentions and factions and society and all that with a certitude that sounds factual and it bothers me.

However, they tell good stories with clarity and intelligence. They're obviously well-versed in the lore, though get a bit repetitive with the terminology. The tales Imbrogno tells (most of which I've heard now about four times) of his descent to the Majlis al Jinn and the mountaintop meeting with a geniah (djinniah?) chased by US troops are terrific, and throughout the couple of years he's been telling them, they remain consistent, with slight variation, which has the ring of truth to it. I believe he did descend into the cave, though whether the locals were pulling his leg is another matter, and I suspect he was told the second story, true or not.

Tying this all in with the Crowley magick, the burning bush and all that was very interesting. Good questions, mostly good answers, and fingers crossed for that live show from Chris and Rosemary. I'd like to hear the two converse more about ley lines, natural phenomena, native american myths, arcaeoacoustics and the like -- something which has been far less covered on the paracast.


Appendix:
To illustrate Imbrogno's descent, here's a great flickr set of the cave:
Majlis Al Jinn - a set on Flickr

The wikipedia entry on the cave:
Wikimedia Error
 

Angel of Ioren

Friendly Skeptic
A very entertaining show. I take the stories with a dose of salt, and the various levels of belief associated with the authors is a bit heavy to my mind… if they could only preface their statements with "it appears" or "the stories tell that..," but no. They talk of the Djinn intentions and factions and society and all that with a certitude that sounds factual and it bothers me. However, they tell good stories with clarity and intelligence. They're obviously well-versed in the lore, though get a bit repetitive with the terminology.

Well said JT. The show was entertaining and the guests were well spoken.
I was also a little put off by the conviction with which the guests discussed the topic as though it was a given that the Djinn are all around us. If one thing can be said, neither of them are wishy-washy about it.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
The thing about all of this about Djinn's social structure and motivations is where does this information come from? How was this information gathered? Humans eavesdropping? Direct contact? Revealed knowledge? That just rings in my head, "This information comes from where?"
 

J.T.

Maybe Logic
There is actually quite a bit of information online if you dig in. There are some awful translations of Islamic books on the subject, which nevertheless quote references to books which I can't read or find, but which probably do exist. The fact that there is a lot of printed material on the subject, and the fact that a lot of it is pretty uniform, suggests there is *some* basis to all this, whether it is simply legends and myths conveniently boxed up to decipherable form or actual knowledge.... who knows. None of this came through in the interview, but I suspect they do have references in the book itself.

One book I came across, which does concur with what Imbrogno and Guiley were saying (The World of the Jinn and the Devils by Umar Sulaiman al-Ashqar):

world of jinn and devils umar al ashqar

Requires a lot of skimming and mental editing (translation is horrible, though also suspect the original wasn't a literary masterpiece either) but there is interesting information within.
 

RJHark00

Skilled Investigator
I liked the show, if for no other reason than that it was a change of pace from the past couple of guests. Like others, I was concerned also by the extent to which the guests claim factual knowledge about the djinn -- social structures, motivations, the power to use magnetism to reorganize matter (though Imbrogno later slipped in that he had inferred this) -- but they were both articulate, polite, and legitimate researchers (and neither was drunk), so we should give them credit for that. I think that many of their claims were based on modern works; there just isn't enough information in the myths to make those detailed claims. The Clavicula Salomonis should not be construed as a reliable source for information about this at all; there are more intriguing parallels to be found in ancient incantation bowls.

The bigger issue for me is looking at ancient folklore and mythology for weird occurrences and interpreting them literally rather than symbolically or imagistically, essentially dispensing with the imaginations of ancient peoples or presuming that they were just recording what they did not have the scientific terminology to describe. This is how people like Sitchin and von Daniken made their bread, and it's compelling but fraught with methodological problems.

As for the eyewitness accounts, it has to depend on what you find believable. Imbrogno says he heard a voice and saw a green mist -- who am I to say that he just made that up? I've been to the Arab world and know Arabic, and my experience was that the djinni/genies is one of those cultural insider jokes that they like to "play up" for Westerners because it amuses them. I have had this happen in other places in the world; it's not cruelty, just a fascination with our image of their culture combined with a curiosity to see how far Americans will believe when they have to trust their guides and interpreters.

All in all, a very interesting show and topic. I like that Chris brings these different interests to the table.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
Fun show... But using current physics to support Djinn seems a bit much...

I can't reconcile the amount of energy required to support such a construct and the idea that these multi-dimensional entities would actually be trapped or confined somewhere... Control over matter would enable them to create their own planet... maybe ?

The movie Cocoon offers the premise of an accident forcing aliens to temporarily coexist and interact with humans until their mothership comes back to pick them up... Why else bother with the ants in your garden ? A better premise than the Djinn approach ;)

Smokeless fire = Plasma and magnetic field ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoon_(film)
cocoon4.jpg
Cocoon (1985)... the real Djinn lol

Djinn seems to want to put everything in the same box, convenient but a very earth-centric view at the same time. The earth has been a prison-planet for all the high-tech civilizations that have preceeded us ?
 

brado

↨··°≈⌠⌡⌠ ≡·▐▀▀▀▌
This is the third time in three weeks I have listened to their pitch (C2C, MU and Pcast). It is unfortunate that ancient folklore is not as popular as "the paranormal' these days. In my view, it is an excellent account of folklore and I appreciate the similarities with stories of other cultures. I also appreciate the way the topic was handled by Chris and Gene. These guests aren't crackpots like some of the others and they had good answers, based on their research, for the questions they were asked. In the end, it is evident that they put a lot of real time and real effort into this project and therefore cannot afford to not sell books. I hope they can find success in the scholarly folklore side of it as well. I believe that is where the true value of the information lies.
 

Beltemps

Paranormal Novice
Aaaah... what a change! I liked the show a lot... Phil and Rosemary are professional researchers and very polite guests with the right attitude towards the paranormal... I especially liked chris' questions this time... that's the spirit, guys...
 

red_pill_junkie

Paranormal Adept
Frankly I was a bit disappointed...

During the whole show I was expecting either one of the two hosts to finally said "You're listening to the Paracast, with Djinn Steinberg and Chris O'Brien".

Sorry— couldn't resist ;)

PS.- Seriously, though, I enjoyed the show. Both two guests are a pleasure to listen to, and the topic of the djinn is fascinating to me; although count me among those who are a bit uncomfortable with their certitude re. their (as-yet) unsubstantiated assertions.

Talking about djinns' intentions and social structure is all well and good. But shouldn't we be trying to prove their existence first?
 

Gene Steinberg

Forum Super Hero
Staff member
They are relying on folklore, legends, etc., etc., about the Djinn society, history and motivations. Proving such a thing would be terribly difficult, unless you could somehow capture one, or provide a photo that is clear and definitely not CGI. But if they want to mostly keep to themselves in a parallel universe, that's hardly likely.

Whatever you think, however, you have to admit it's a great story.
 

Ezechiel

Paranormal Adept
This show got me thinking...

Higher energetic level = Enhanced capacity to migrate....

We went from wheel to sail to combustion engine to propeller to jet to rocket to scramjet to ..... eventually fusion propulsion...

An interaction between Djinn and humans doesn't compute... unless the Djinn are multi-dimensional prisoners of this planet lol and catching them is a bonus to us :)
 

CapnG

Devil's Advocate
I don't know where to stand on the subject of this week's show. On the one hand as an open-minded fellow I accept fully the possibility of other dimesions and the inhabitants therein. I try to keep Clark's third law in mind when I listen to these sorts of topics and generally agree that we humans, being superstitious and lazy, would ascribe all sorts of weird powers and abilities to such unsual entities. On the other hand, when I hear people talking about summonings and possesion and Enochian magic and so forth with such certainty, my eyes roll so far back they almost fall out. It boils down to this: if magic were real, technology would be unecessary.

Also, like Gene I found myself wondering why the Djinn don't just flatten us. Okay, so not all Djinn are evil, fine. But the evil ones ARE evil, right? And they're more powerful than we are, right? So what's stopping them? Other entities? Okay, who are THEY? And how do we know they're on our side (remember, lack of malevolence doesn't automatically mean benificence). Does anyone have a playbook I can follow?
 

Ufosopher

Paranormal Novice
When asked, I can pretty much explain the course of reasoning behind most every belief I adhere to. Most often I can also cite verifiable data which supports cogent arguments that help lead my audience to, if not the same conclusion, at least an understanding of why I hold such a position. If I don't possess such veracity for my contention then I will state that "it may be possible" that such and such is true. However, both authors spoke about a subject matter, modern day multi-dimentional Genies with a grudge, as if their criteria for belief had been easily fulfilled. Yet, they did not paint a good picture of what convinced them of such an extraordinary claim.

It is too bad that they did not convince me! The subject matter is extremely intriguing, if true it could answer many perplexing questions concerning historical folklore, and present-day phenomena. In fact, many current UFO videos appear to be plasma like apparitions which would fit a Djinn paradigm. The author's confidence and intelligence drew me in and made me want to believe them. Still, we all know what extraordinary claims require, and that condition was not met, or really even adequately addressed! I do want to know more, and if generating interest in the subject was the goal of the authors, then I think they succeeded.

It would be good to have them on again. But, require them to justify their claims a little better than they did, at least to the extent of why they believe them.
 

Apocalypto

Paranormal Maven
To illustrate Imbrogno's descent, here's a great flickr set of the cave:

Awesome photos. Thanks for sharing! It's pretty much exactly as I had imagined it from the interview (save, I was seeing a darker cave.) Still, it's impressive and intimidating, and if I heard a weird voice and saw a strange green mist rising up towards me I would have been very frightened! Geez, it's scary anough just hanging from a rope in a cave like that.

The djinn are a fascinating subject. They sound very real and very mysterious.

I always like hearing what Phil has to say and Rosemary was enjoyable as well. These are good people.

But now I have a weird story to share...

Yesterday I had to go to a special meeting with some folks in another department where I work. I had never met these people before. The first fellow was normal enough, albeit quite eccentric. Then I met this woman. Wow, after having just listened the interview and learned of how the djinn have trouble emulating human eyes, well.. let's just say this woman must have been wondering why I was acting so strangely when we met! She is clearly of East Indian or Middle Eastern descent, I am not sure which because her name is not giving me a definite answer one way or the other. She is quite short, probably no more than 5'2", but has a very strong personality which does not at all correspond with her physical stature. I'm going to discreetly ask around the office and find someone who can tell me what her nationality is.

The reason I bring her up, of course, is the eyes. They were a very, very strange shade of green... . I am always very studious of people's eyes, especially when I first meet them, so when I saw hers I was shocked. They weren't at all a green you would normally see. In fact, at first I thought they might be contacts, but I was interacting with her for quite a while on some project details and I had a good view of them and they were definitely not contact lenses. The color was sort of like that light green you sometimes see in pond water. I did a quick Google search and found this photo which gives a pretty good idea of the tint:

http://www.cdss.ca/images/images_newsflashes/green_pond.png

After yesterday's meeting a colleague and myself had to get back out to their site and do a quick follow-up on some details. This was an opportunity for yours truly to have another look at this person's ocular oddities. My oh my, they didn't fail to impress once again. Very, very strange eyes on this person. I'm not saying they were distasteful or anything. In fact, they were very pretty in a weird way, almost mesmerizing. They didn't seem... static? When you look at them you feel a literal vibration going on.

Anyway, great interview. Thanks guys.
 

tyder001

Paranormal Adept
I just bought and downloaded their new book onto my Kindle. So, I'm gonna read it and then come back to this thread and see if I have a better understanding of the subject. :)
 

dad2059

Temporal Transhuman
I love Imbrogno's stories and this is the first time I listened to Guiley, so my opinion is still out concerning her.

As for the djinn, well, in this age of government intervention (and we've all heard tales of the government keeping EBEs prisoner using Faraday cages), who am I to say that the tale borders on the incredible?

The government could very well be keeping extra-dimensional denizens prisoner and looking for more in other countries.
 

Kieran

Paranormal Adept
It's difficult to truly grasp the concept of how something that was allegedly made up of "Smokeless Fire" (plasma) could at will, change the shape once had, and reappear in physical human form, or change form, into something exotic and weird that would seem impossible to us. I guess this would be one of the many reasons, for why such stories are so fascinating to listen to, and if there is any truth, to the rhetorical science of the interdimensional universe, then would must allow, for the possibility some of these Djinn legends may be factual somewhat.

But in saying all that, the fact most of these stories are in a 2000 year old book which has been claimed by the Muslim following to be the word of "God" himself", has me now wondering how many of the original Islamic stories of the Djinn have been changed to fit the teachings and the wording that would be found in the holy book of the the Qur'an?

The Djinn may have an existence in some shape or form, and live in some off-world place beyond or own earth, but if i had the time. I would like to go and scrutinize these legends, and myths, before deciding conclusively, what I do believe, because there is more than average chance here these Djinn stories would be an inaccurate account of what happened long ago, and some of these stories could and may, have been been twisted and manipulated by Islam, to reflect a religious ideas about human origin, importance, and our place in the universe? I personally would not be surprised if we're getting an inaccurate picture of Djinn behavior and agendas from the Qur'an.

I think Rosemary would be more willing to believe in more far out paranormal stuff then Philip, but I know very little about her work, only from her interviews, so I might be wronging her?

Philip is a one of those UFO researchers, I do admire, because he has investigated places around the world were he believes the answers to the UFO and paranormal phenomenon may rest. He claimed he went to Newgrange in Ireland, to check out its possible connection with the astonishing Hudson Valley sightings of the early eighties. So he has shown to me, his willingness to look at all theories to what UFO's could be, unlike lot of other talking heads in this field of research, who'll just dismiss ideas like his, because it doesn't really fit in with their pet theory to what UFO'S could be.

Finally I do have a problem with a unified theory to explain what people are experiencing, for me, the Djinn been behind behind a minority or even a majority of what people are seeing and experiencing, is at this time a baseless assumption. I see know reference would could link to and conclusively say the Djinn were behind the Fairy faith in Celtic countries long ago, ok yes there is some themes that run similar like, the Fairies and Djinn were both banished respectively from this world to another world by human beings. But here is the problem.

When Ireland starting to become christen in 430AD christens had to deal with the many legends and myths that had existed in Ireland prior to Christianity, a similar thing happened to Islam, as it too had to deal with the Djinn legends before it!! So what happened is humans beings were put ahead in importance, to what could have been there before, and we became the centre of attention of everything that is, the, Bible and Qur'an, obviously to me have influenced the Djinn and Fairy stories that existed way prior to the one god- religion that emerged in the middle east.

Christen monks believed the fairies left Ireland, after signing a negotiated treaty with humans. A war had taken place some time in our planets past, the fairies lost, we mortals got the surface of the planet, the fairies took the underworld ( which is a a parallel world or underneath the surface of the this planet) and now only venture out at night now since then, but the another theory that I find highly compelling is the reason for leaving was religion itself.

The legends of the Tuatha De Dannann (Fairies) are probably not 100% accurate account of what happened back then, as obviously fairy lore was messed with by those who practiced and followed and teached the Bible in Ireland, and the British Isles, many hundreds of years ago, but i will say if we do ever get answers to what UFO's are, i will be shocked if there is no Ancient UFO history connection to Ireland, for me the evidence is overwhelming to some unusual happenings having occurred in the country i live hundreds if not thousands of years back..
 

Artyom

Paranormal Maven
It's interesting coinsedence that I've listened this episode during the time I'm reading Leonard Susskind book "The Cosmic Landscape". It's about the long hard way of building a theory to unify General Relstivity and Quantum Mechanics. By Leonard own words by this day he doesn't feel confident enough to say that String Theory is the answer and actual way to build a bridge between these branches of physics, although it is the best candidate atm. And so when I heard Philip's claims about Djinn's ability to manipulate matter using Strings I was a bit surprised to hear it from a scientist. I mean I do not mind to speculate and brainstorm what can be a physical base for Djinns as a phenomena and how they can manipulate matter but I would add 'presumably' / 'I believe' / 'it may suggest' and so forth when I tell about such things.

Plasma is the 4th state of matter and comes next after gas, when a temperature so high so that atoms are loosing their electrons and become plasma. How it may interact with matter without destroying it? It is open question and I understand that Phillip as all of use can't answer this question.

It would be extremely interesting to figure out the way people on Middle East are digging their information about Djinns. I mean literally - is this all he said, she said?
 
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