Feb 20 2011 James Carrion

[CapnG]

Meh. It was an okay show but the whole "It's all the government!" angle is just as irrational to me as the "It's all ET!" angle. The more time passes the more an more I feel a single-source explanation has little to do with the phenomena encountered and more to do with the human need to put things in easily recognized boxes. I don't doubt there is a certain level of government involvement in the UFO mystery (by default there has to be) but to try and paint every UFO sighting from the 40s on up as a secret test project? All those sightings? Makes ET visitation seem like a statistical certainty by comparison.

 

[boomerang]

I found Mr. Carrion to be articulate and well organized, and I thought this was a great episode.

Alas, we can never know what transpired between Mr. Bigelow and MUFON. Consider the lives of Percival Lowell and Howard Hughes for bios of eccentric ways the super wealthy indulge their interests. The possibilities are broad.

As for a third party connection--Our government has a long and well documented history of irrational involvement with the UFO phenomenon, including an inexplicable interest in grass roots groups devoted to UFOlogy. Mr. Carrion's explanation for this may or may not be correct. But it is the one that, to my mind anyway, makes the "least nonsense".

 

[trainedobserver]

Is it a major pre-occupation of the intel agencies? No, of course not.

That is a good point to remind ourselves of. In popular UFO mythology UFOs, Aliens, and intricate conspiracies involving shadowy government agencies are the major driving forces in human development, current events, and the future of the human race. To listen to many in the traveling faux-reality show that the UFO conference and lecture circuit appears to be, the subject is the preoccupation of world leaders and government agencies with infinite budgets. That does not exactly translate to the real world and its priorities however. I suspect it is just one stratagem in the large arsenal available to counter-intelligence, it's importance being overstated within the UFO myth itself.

I am not saying that I don't think there are true anomalous events involving actual UFOs. I think there is a long history of it. However, I need to constantly remind myself to be careful of the interpretations I ascribe to those events.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I believe that James Carrion came across as a very intelligent, well mannered individual. He put forth his point of view on the matter of extraterrestrial visitation, and it is only too obvious why they ensured his moving on because of it. We can discuss money issues and back room brawls all we wish, but let's face it, any International Director of MUFON who has the "temerity" to state that there hasn't been any real evidence for the belief that we are being visited, isn't going to fare too well with the Robert Marsh's of the world.

Unfortunately MUFON as an organization has transformed from a highly intensive scientifically
"skeptical" group whose basis of reporting was geared toward as much factual information as possible, to as James discusses, basically allowing reports to be loosely blemished, etc.

I have nothing personally against a MUFON per-say, but in this case I believe they lost someone who would have done a much better job of it if given an unbiasedly sincere chance.

 

[plumbbob12]

"In there lies the rub" as the bard would say. The idea that: "there hasn't been any real evidence for the belief that we are being visited", is the problem. As I have said in the past, I would estimate that there are about 1 percent, (while Blue Book and NSAS’s Condon Report puts the number higher as to "unexplained"), of craft that leave radar, photographic, radiation, antidotal, and other evidence that would strongly suggest that there are indeed vehicles of some type that are in our atmosphere that we cannot show either by engineering standards, or historically, are connected to human civilization. Of course that is all we can say, and the problem with J.C is that he takes it one step further and implies that this is all some kind of government conspiracy, either due to mind control techniques, (which we have no research showing that this is possible), or some kind of mass delusion. Either way we are creeping into the realm of “belief”. Once we cross this line, the intelligent conversation stops. Cheers.
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[jimp]

The problem with the "it's all a conspiracy" theory is that then everything can be a conspiracy. I thought Gene's "devil's advocate" question demonstrated this point. Maybe Carrion is part of a conspiracy to discredit ET. After a while it becomes pointless to even try to wade into this morass. The UFO hobby is pursued by a tiny percentage of the populace and a government attempt to suborn the hobby would affect very few people. Stephen Spielberg did more to put extraterrestrials into the mindset of our culture than all the UFO groups and enthusiasts put together -- and he did it without being manipulated by the government (or did he -- hmmmm -- there's the morass again).

I was disappointed by the debunking of the Skinwalker Ranch affair -- I really liked that book. Great stories -- but who knows what was really going on? But I guess if NIDS is now an evil corporation manipulated by government disinformation agents, we must distrust anything they have ever touched. I heard a BoA interview with Colm Kelleher and he seemed pretty credible (I guess -- who knows?).

Enjoyable interview -- more high drama than high strangeness.

 

[PararealitySaint]

As I have said in the past, I would estimate that there are about 1 percent, (while Blue Book and NSAS’s Condon Report puts the number higher as to "unexplained"),

So having this information presented by someone who once attained such an authoritative position within a major UFO field organization, whose primary purpose it is to find out the truth about this phenomenon, and his conclusion is that there really isn't evidence for any extraterrestrial visitation of any sort, is unacceptable?

Would it have been just as easy for you to have stated how crazy an "ex" Director of MUFON was who in an interview such as the one Gene had the other day state that he personally has been visited by E.T. and knows the phenomenon to be legit?

1% of what? The entire percentage you refer to can just as easily be shown to prove the phenomenon must be Demonic in influence, or inter dimensional in influence, or Bozo The Clown influenced from his graveside beyond Kiddie Land.....

James was stating clearly for the record so that everyone in radio land would understand, that not one single solitary piece of evidence points toward any of this being "extraterrestrial" in origin only....I don't believe he is arguing that most of it didn't happen, just that it isn't proven to have originated from any probable vehicle at this point. I seriously appreciated his dissension of 47' and other cases as well. It was refreshing to hear someone finally have the balls to stand up in this silly field and actually admit he hasn't been summoned by the Star Seed council to make another airstrip for the ancient aliens.

Thanks Gene for a seriously EXCELLENT show.

 

[plumbbob12]

Once again, we are slipping into the realm of belief. The statement that J.C was once head of the most prestigious UFO research organization, and therefore his views are correct is called Appeal to authority, which is a common logical fallacy. It is assumed that the statement is correct because it is made by someone in authority. , and I must admit that I have used it myself, but none the less, it is a fallacy, and just because J.C was head of MUFON does not make his statements correct.
Not to slam you, but it is also incorrect to state that because I can show to a high degree of certainly that the UFO enigma has not come from human construction, then It is the same as attempting to therefore “prove” that it comes from “demonic influence, inter dimensional, or Bozo the Clown”. Just because I can prove what something is not, does not mean that I have proven what it is. All I said was this was as far as we can go in showing that the UFO phenomenon is something other than a human construct. I also said that J.C’s mistake was the same as the one you put forward in stating that it must be the stuff of secret military influence, and mind control. All we can say is that the phenomena is physical in the sense that it reflects electromagnetic and light rays, and that is occupies physical space. We can also show that out technology has not developed to the point where we can accelerate in the atmosphere the way these craft do. All this shows is what we know it not to be. One must not skip to the conclusion that they therefore know what it is.

 

[PararealitySaint]

We can also show that out technology has not developed to the point where we can accelerate in the atmosphere the way these craft do. All this shows is what we know it not to be. One must not skip to the conclusion that they therefore know what it is.

You see I cannot feel this way simply for the reason that just when we place "limits" on what we can supposedly do and not do, we're surprised to find that we've been doing it all along; just in a covert capacity. To me it's a heck of a lot easier believing that the govt. can cover up or maintain a level of secrecy on a vehicle of terrestrial origin, much better than it can do for any "thing" they have no control over. In the case of an E.T. driven vehicle, my assumption would be they (the extraterrestrials) would do what it is they want to do and thumb us if we didn't like it. Therefore I believe we would have known centuries ago that they existed because they wouldn't have been bothered by that notion in the slightest. This whole "Gene Roddenberry" idea of non influencing the population of planets is human based, and I wouldn't hold the same standard on any creature that enjoys anal prodding and sticking metal up peoples septum's......or likes to place hybrid children in woman's hands to see their reactions and then grab the kid away in glee, only to watch the woman cry.....etc.

James was an authority figure in the UFO field, attaining his position in a different way than just grasping at straws. The man carried an authoritative weight far heavier than the ordinary MUFON member, mainly because he had immediate "full" access to everything MUFON possesses, was the "in man" on the organization's progress, focus and even covert activity (if any) and has taken years and years researching the field. For a man like this to state emphatically that there is no evidence whatsoever that E.T. came to visit the planet earth in any of his cases is a big deal.

 

[jimp]

I was surprised that Carrion didn't know about the results of the blood test on the person who was buzzed by a UFO and developed radiation sickness. Results like this would seem to be really important. Positive results wouldn't mean that the witness saw ET, advance terrestrial technology, interdimensianls, etc., but it would indicate a physical phenomenon with physical effects, amenable to scientific study. Why didn't Carrion know the details about such an important case?

 

[PararealitySaint]

I was surprised that Carrion didn't know about the results of the blood test on the person who was buzzed by a UFO and developed radiation sickness. Results like this would seem to be really important. Positive results wouldn't mean that the witness saw ET, advance terrestrial technology, interdimensianls, etc., but it would indicate a physical phenomenon with physical effects, amenable to scientific study. Why didn't Carrion know the details about such an important case?

Perhaps he did but it just wasn't mentioned this time around. There were a lot of issues covered.

 

[exo_doc]

I thought it was a really good show. That plus the after-discussion here shows one of the infuriating things about the UAP/UFO field...-..the fact that it's so muddled! And disorganized. And polarized-in a very bad way.
I'm not really sure I can even describe it, but the fact is there is so much disinformation-intentional or otherwise, so much disagreement about even the basics of the phenomena, so much bickering and in-fighting versus honest debate....Ufology is not going to go anywhere in an environment like this.
Has it always been this way and I've naively been blind to it?
In the three or so years I've been posting on the Paracast I've seen some intelligent posts, and I've seen some gut reaction, knee-jerk posts that have no substance other than "Oh yeah? Well you're just stupid." type of posts. While those are probably in the minority, they are still stumbling blocks or quicksand to furthering the field.
In problem solving basics, here is what I've learned:
1. Identify the problem and define it exactly as best it can be.
2. Identify why it's a problem (this step seems to be left out most of the time, but it can be the most important question to ask).
3. Collect all the information you can about the problem.
4. Colate the data, and let the data organize itself to present any possible trends or associations.
5. Based on what the data says, extrapolate as many solutions as possible.
6. Find the solution that meets the most criteria to the problem, and/or list the possible solutions in order of most to least probable.
I haven't seen very much of this kind of thing in Ufology, at least not lately. Or am I just not seeing it?
Or is this the wrong approach? Considering our limited knowledge about each individual sighting, AND considering our limited knowledge of the Universe, maybe this is the wrong approach.
If it is wrong, what would be the correct approach? What approach will get Ufology moving????

 

[boomerang]

In the case of an E.T. driven vehicle, my assumption would be they (the extraterrestrials) would do what it is they want to do and thumb us if we didn't like it. Therefore I believe we would have known centuries ago that they existed because they wouldn't have been bothered by that notion in the slightest.

With all due respect and at the risk of nit-picking, we haven't the foggiest notion what the wants and ethical values of a superior civilization might be. Ascribing motivations is the purest speculation.

Deciding whether this phenomenon is of human or non-human origin is the first great fork in the problem solving flow chart of choices, all of which lead to value shattering conclusions. The kind of advancements in technology necessary to account for the technical and social power of the phenomena in question would be more than just so much classified science. It would constitute nothing less than a breakaway culture. Such a culture would be autocratic, insular, and in most aspects superior to the human society we think we know. I find this alternative to be almost as mind boggling as little gray guys from Z. Reticuli.

 

[trainedobserver]

With all due respect and at the risk of nit-picking, we haven't the foggiest notion what the wants and ethical values of a superior civilization might be.

Would it necessarily have to be a superior civilization? While they may have some technology that we see as more advanced than our own it does not automatically follow that they would be culturally, socially, or spiritually more advanced or superior to human civilization. I think that is one of the greatest and perhaps most dangerous assumptions that we could make with an encounter with a different civilization. They are different, not necessarily superior.

Ascribing motivations is the purest speculation.

Granted. However, there is one constant we see in all life on earth. The competition for resources. In any meeting of civilizations it would seem that has been a constant theme as well.

 

[plumbbob12]

I Don’t know guys, all the above are very good view points, and this is what science is all about. The "nit-picking", is what we need to do. I don't know if anyone has followed the peer review process, but it makes what we do look very docile by comparison. I agree that we need to find out where or how this event occurs. For most of us, I don't think that it is a question any longer whether or not the UFO phenomenon is "real" or not. I have to entertain the idea that it might be some sort of "secret covert mind control" experiment by the government. If I throw out this possibility just based on my own bias, then I too, become a "true believer". The only problems I have with the Mind control explanation put forth by JC, is that there is absolutely no physical proof as of yet. If and when that proof is supplied, I will change my mind, (or would that be have my mind changed...., The second problem with the Mind control hypothesis is that it is by its very nature "secret", and therefore a self filling proof. In other words, "because I cannot find the smoking gun, shows that it is very covert, and therefore proves that it is a secret project'. As I have said in the past, bio-engineering is not my cup of tea, but from the papers I have read, we are no where closet to doing mass mind control. We have no idea what conciseness is. We do not know how the brain stores or moves information. Maybe we will discover these secrets in the next hundred years or so. Maybe we cannot discover the nature of Mind with our limitations in physical science and our western philosophy of materialism. Maybe that is all it is, and we will. Who knows? Have to keep an open mind, and watch the data.

 

[softbeard]

For a man like this to state emphatically that there is no evidence whatsoever that E.T. came to visit the planet earth in any of his cases is a big deal.

I believe James stated during the show that "that there is no evidence whatsoever that E.T. came to visit the planet earth in any of his cases during his tenure". I think it's important to distinguish that from him saying that there is no evidence whatsoever for E.T. in any case he has seen.

 

[PararealitySaint]

I believe James stated during the show that "that there is no evidence whatsoever that E.T. came to visit the planet earth in any of his cases during his tenure". I think it's important to distinguish that from him saying that there is no evidence whatsoever for E.T. in any case he has seen.

Yes,

but no matter how you slice it, this is a great deal more important than saying he didn't think so, or there was maybe a little....During his tenure I am sure he didn't just ignore the many assignments and important responsibilities of his level of functioning, and for a man of this high degree in MUFON of all places to come out with this statement....whether it be with just "his time" or "for all time", because the last I checked he wasn't at Roswell yet had a lot to say about that having nothing to do with E.T.....that's something seriously important to recognize.

 

[pininmefin]

he served His intrests then just shit over everything for the last 7 months.He was due to leave but said he would stay till the SIP project ended. funny since HE ended it and almost has ended MUFON. he's very good at pointing fingers at almost any one the goverment but lets remember HE was incharge of the whole shibang by his own admission.

 

[PararealitySaint]

he served His intrests then just shit over everything for the last 7 months.He was due to leave but said he would stay till the SIP project ended. funny since HE ended it and almost has ended MUFON. he's very good at pointing fingers at almost any one the goverment but lets remember HE was incharge of the whole shibang by his own admission.

Ohhh I see....it's "his" interests when they don't agree with the going notion, but if he was part of the politically correct peace pot and microdot little gray aliens for everyone train, then he'd be the abused martyr who shouldn't be so persecuted by the "man!"

Ending everything "MUFON".....Funny, I thought MUFON was doing a great job of that long before he took the reigns.

The one time someone like a James Carrion steps up and attempts to ruffle the feathers of a stifling business as usual "getting nowhere" routine of an organization, and those who want so desperately to get to "the truth", can't handle it when it slaps them in their overly fattened Zeta Reticular' faces.

Dear Lord, let us continue to have the James Carrion's of the world intercede and re-light the fire under the, "WAKE THE HELL UP" cheeks of modern UFOLOGY!

I say use some of that good ole' E.T. magic and clone the man for future cleansings....

 

[pininmefin]

beats me where you get the "his intrests when they don't agree with the going notion".My point was and is that there is alot on the cutting room floor.So far we have heard only what james has to say.But what about ALL the others involved? james has come out with some spin control on this issue. Once again there is far more to this story than what he is telling you. the devil is in the details and he contradicts himself . by omission he is creating deception(pardon the rhyme). thats not say that the board is fault free.this was about crossed agenda's at the top. and now james will level his lance at the windmill of disinformation when he is in bed with them.I would like to see some of the others involved with the SIP project speak up.It was this issue that left MUFON esentialy broke in january when the project was ended. now james has given some truths about the workings of the upper tier at MUFON.Once again james has done some good things for MUFON to be fair.if you think it was just his "sudden notion" that this was all about black projects and not E.T.then you are woefully out of the loop on this my firend. lets get a 360 on this paracast.the peasants of MUFON are no longer content with the status quo.