Fake or Fact: Cattle Mutilations

[Kandinsky]

I can't make my mind up about the cattle mutilation stories. It isn't a subject that gets much of my attention, but I've read a little about it. I've also been pulled up in the past for not checking my sources on the subject. Some explanations range from testing for prions or radiation from weapons testing. I'm Swiss on the subject...neutral.

I've seen the comparative images of predation, degeneration and bloat causing the appearance of incisions and cuts. It's pretty compelling and certainly offers a 'prosaic' explanation. If most are an outcome of natural causes and predation, why not all cases?

The thing is, doesn't this argument run along the same lines as identifying Venus in a UFO report and concluding *all* UFO reports can be identified conventionally? Can *all* reports be assigned to conventional explanation? Case solved with a knowing smile...

One point that leaves me undecided is the contexts of these reports...specifically the people making the reports. Livestock farmers allow for and accept that a certain % of their animals will be found dead of numerous causes (rate of attrition). Typically, they represent a family trade and have the experience of their lives and those of preceding generations and neighbours. They've seen dead animals. They've seen predation and decomposition...it's a way of life surely?

In that light, how likely would it be that they can't tell the difference between a naturally dead animal and one with unusual post-mortem features? Also, why mainly cattle? Don't all livestock have the potential of being found dead...sheep, goats, horses? What about alpacas or llamas?

I wonder, what makes a livestock farmer statistically more likely to misidentify natural predation in cattle as being from artificial causes? Are they always accurate with other animals and somehow prone to mistakes identifying cause of death in cattle? This, to me, presents a flaw in the internal logic of *all* 'mutilated' cattle being misidentified natural predation.

 

[newmark.robert]

It's interesting in this recent case that the farmer said it's been happening repeatedly and not just a one time deal. Is that common? It always seemed to me these things would happen once or twice on a given farm. And more importantly does this farm (I believe it's in Georgia) fit into the Canadian Mutilation Grid?

Bobby

www.dystopiantimes.com

 

[Angel of Ioren]

As I stated Angelo, there is good evidence but contrary to what you say, it will never change your mind. As far as "belief," I don't believe any of this stuff. I go out and investigate, research and allow the particulars of a case to point me in whatever direction the facts lead. Unlike you, I am open-minded and willing to spend the time it takes to get all the facts.

That's the thing Christopher, I have listened to both sides of the argument. On one side I have what Randle is telling me, on the other I have what you're telling me. You've both done massive amounts of research in the subject and you come to different conclusions. I know that you think I should go and research it myself, but honestly, I don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. You guys write the articles and do the interviews, and I listen and read.

If you think I'm wrong for relying on what you and Randle have to say on the subject, I don't know what to tell you. Most of the people here are not investigators like you. It's great that you do this, don't get me wrong, but you don't need to go off on me just because I agree with the other guy. I can totally be wrong, and that would be okay - I'll gladly admit it when that's proven. Hey, I used to think there was nothing to global warming, and that it was based on unclear science. I changed my tune as soon as a the evidence went the other way. I am open minded.
I am just pointing out that two different people in the UFO community have researched the same topic and come to different conclusions. Where does that leave us?

I'm always accused of not being open minded. It seems to me that term gets misused. It's more like I disagree with a particular conclusion. That either makes me right or wrong, but not closed minded. Closed minded would be refusing to admit I was wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence. In the case of cattle mutilations, I don't see that. The same goes for most of the paranormal.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

All cattle mutilations can be explained without the need for anything nefarious or paranormal or alien to be involved.

I listened to the episode and, for the record, I actually agree with some of what KR and PK had to say about the so-called "mutilation" mystery. Scavengers can leave behind unusual-looking evidence that (to the untrained eye) can appear to be high-strange. However, having said this, I cannot agree with the blanket statement that all mutilations can be explained. This is simply not true and Randall knows it! FWIW: Out of the 200+ cases I've investigated (in my estimation) around 38-40 seemed high-strange and worthy of testing by veterinarian pathologists. True, I'm just an amateur, but I have been exposed to, and learned from, the methodology of professionals.

KR mentioned the NIDS investigation and research of a UT case from 1998 in Utah where the animal was thoroughly examined postmortem and found to have unusually low levels of copper. Here is the abstract from that report. Note that KR neglected to mention"the animal had extremely low liver copper levels," that could not be explained according to Dr. George Onett a veterinarian pathologist who conducted the testing for NIDS. And what about the "unusual, formaldehyde-containing blue gel like substance was found on the eye, the ear and the anus of the animal[?]" or this interesting detail: "the animal's heart was shredded, yet it's pericardium was intact." Or what about this fact? "the animal tested positive on two different pregnancy tests, yet there was no fetus present at the time of necropsy and no sign of a recent spontaneous abortion." Or how about this observation? "the animal's blood contained high levels of potassium chloride." To say that ALL CATTLE MUTILATIONS CAN BE EXPLAINED is disingenuous at best, and smacks of outright debunking.

Yup, this was a predator kill that was then subjected to mundane scavenger action who somehow introduced potassium chloride and an unusual formaldehyde-like substance to the carcass, nothing to see here, move along...

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Tyder, I don't go to the JREF forums because there's only one line of thinking there, and even though I agree with it, it's like a skeptical circle jerk, and there's nothing new to learn. In this forum, I'm able to express my point of view and have someone challenge it.
I think it was necessary for me to defend myself because of what Christopher said, in that I wasn't investigating the Montreal UFO, and he seemed to imply that even though he was busy, he was going to do the work to find things out. I was irritated, for sure.

About me only listening to skeptical podcasts, well, that isnt' true. The paracast is the only paranormal podcast I listen to, but the vast majority of the podcasts I listen to are about video games and stand up comedy. In fact, right now my favorite podcasts are WTF with Marc Maron and The Nerdist.

I hope that clears things up.

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

Yup, this was a predator kill that was then subjected to mundane scavenger action who somehow introduced potassium chloride and an unusual formaldehyde-like substance to the carcass, nothing to see here, move along...

That's fine, and yes, that may not be the correct solution, but what is the alternative?

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

That's the thing Christopher, I have listened to both sides of the argument. On one side I have what Randle is telling me, on the other I have what you're telling me.

No Angelo, what you have is someone (KR) that has made a blanket, disingenuous statement that I have refuted. I didn't bring up the case on PK's show, he did. And don't believe either of us, believe the veterinarian pathologists who have done the professional work on the case that totally refutes (IMO) KR's blanket dismissal of what appears to me to be a true mystery.

---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

Here is an article about it.http://www.ajc.com/news/cows-killed-mutilated-on-648522.html
Cows killed, mutilated on Hall County cattle farm

I spoke with Hall County Sheriff's Department investigator Daniel Corn and received a thorough briefing of this on-going series of highly unusual cattle deaths and disfigurments. The latest brings the total to 20 unexplained cattle deaths in a year on this ranch that is surrounded by other cattle ranches--none of which have been targeted. I won't bore you with all the details, but one thing that he told me should be noted: "In over 25 years of investigations, this is by far the most bizarre case I've ever had."

 

[pixelsmith]

No Angelo, what you have is someone (KR) that has made a blanket, disingenuous statement that I have refuted. I didn't bring up the case on PK's show, he did. And don't believe either of us, believe the veterinarian pathologists who have done the professional work on the case that totally refutes (IMO) KR's blanket dismissal of what appears to me to be a true mystery.

---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------




I spoke with Hall County Sheriff's Department investigator Daniel Corn and received a thorough briefing of this on-going series of highly unusual cattle deaths and disfigurments. The latest brings the total to 20 unexplained cattle deaths in a year on this ranch that is surrounded by other cattle ranches--none of which have been targeted. I won't bore you with all the details, but one thing that he told me should be noted: "In over 25 years of investigations, this is by far the most bizarre case I've ever had."

What are we looking at in this photo?

 

[trainedobserver]

The latest brings the total to 20 unexplained cattle deaths in a year on this ranch that is surrounded by other cattle ranches--none of which have been targeted.

That's pretty alarming. 20 head of cattle would justify a few surveillance cameras I'd think.

one thing that he told me should be noted: "In over 25 years of investigations, this is by far the most bizarre case I've ever had."

This is what gets me about this subject. You have cattlemen and police who "should be" very familiar with predators, pranksters, and what have you mystified by what you would think would be something they'd run into on a more less routine basis.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

What are we looking at in this photo?

The location of what used to be a bull's genitalia. Hall said that the incision was definitely made with a sharp implement (cut hair follicles were noted) I have quite a number of photos he and the rancher have taken and I included this one because it is one of the least graphic and most unusual. There are several details you can see that don't conform to the tearing and ripping commonly attributed to scavenging action. No scavengers have touched any of the 20 carcasses and one case tested positive for an unknown poisoning agent as determined by the U of GA veterinarian lab who conducted postmortem testing. There are no known poison plants in the area and this may be a vital clue as to the possible introduction of a poisoning agent as a potential cause of death.

 

[stphrz]

I think there is enough good evidence to suggest there is something going on regarding cattle/livestock mutilations.

Who or what is behind it is unknown to me. Paranormal in nature? I don't know. I'm not willing to make that kind of leap. However I do believe that the motivation behind what is happening is terror. Not study or anything remotely scientific.

Why do I think this? Simply because the carcasses are left out in the open to be found.

If this was a secret government (or even "alien") scientific study we would instead be wondering about livestock disappearances, not mutilations. Disappearances would not generate the same level of controversy as they could be explained any number of different, non scary ways. There would also be no evidence at all.

It's a blatant message. "Look at what we can do. You cannot do what we can do. You cannot stop us from doing it."

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I'm always accused of not being open minded. It seems to me that term gets misused. It's more like I disagree with a particular conclusion. That either makes me right or wrong, but not closed minded. Closed minded would be refusing to admit I was wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence. In the case of cattle mutilations, I don't see that. The same goes for most of the paranormal.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

The trouble is that you make inaccurate, sweeping pronouncements that indicate otherwise:

All cattle mutilations can be explained without the need for anything nefarious or paranormal or alien to be involved.

You can't say with 100% accuracy that they can be explained away so easily just as the " it must be aliens from Uranus" explanation is not in any way 100% correct.
We know where you are "coming from", Angelo. You do not believe in a certain subject and then you make giant leap in logic to say .."therefore if i do not believe in it then it does not exist!". And this is borne out by your pronouncements.

 

[stphrz]

The trouble is that you make inaccurate, sweeping pronouncements that indicate otherwise:


You can't say with 100% accuracy that they can be explained away so easily just as the " it must be aliens from Uranus" explanation is not in any way 100% correct.
We know where you are "coming from", Angelo. You do not believe in a certain subject and then you make giant leap in logic to say .."therefore if i do not believe in it then it does not exist!". And this is borne out by your pronouncements.

I actually agree with Angelo's statement insofar as the paranormal and alien aspects. Human beings with enough time and some special equipment could account for all strange cases. Introducing the paranormal into a hypothesis about what is happening is adding unnecessary complexity. Where I differ with him is about nefarious activity. Mutilating animals in such a fashion and leaving them to be discovered so as to scare people necessarily points to some pretty dark motives.

The questions I think need to be asked are: Who would benefit if the ranchers involved in these cases due to economic hardship and fear decided to get out of the business? Who would be the first to swoop in and buy the land?

 

[Ron Collins]

I grew up in a rural environment in Oklahoma. I have worked on a dairy ranch for doing things like loading bailed hey (back when they were rectangular) onto trucks, fixing fences, putting out salt licks for the cattle, and all manner of other ranch chores. Enough to convince me to work in an office with air conditioning and a massage chair. My brother on the other hand was a ranch hand for about a decade in west Texas and has been a life long rodeo bull and bronco rider. I can't stand the smell of a rodeo. So basically we are polar opposites.

Anyway, I have heard some stories about these type of mutilations first hand. I have hunted coyotes for the ranch and have one occasion to see the results of a pack attack on a calf. It was gruesome. About a year after I was employed there they had a mutilation event and that really sent some shock waves through my town. Ranchers started carrying shotguns and rifles and literally patrolling the fence line in case it was "Satanists" holding some ritual out in the boonies. Weird that a single event had that kind of reaction.

I have heard that the mutilation phenomenon is so different from predator attacks that it is unsettling to the ranch hands. Not only that but it is the reactions of the other animals. My brother says that they had one mutilation in his time at the ranch and that he thinks they probably lost 5 to 8 head a year to predators. He was adamant in telling me that everything about the mutilation case was completely different than the predator attacks. He has told me that the scene was pristine. That particular cow had a physical checkup within a week of the incident and was in good health. No tracks were seen around the the corpse. He said that the distance the rest of the cattle kept from the it was particularly odd and that the ranch dogs stayed 20 feet back and growled continuously when near the body. It was enough to creep everyone out. Interestingly enough, he says they didn't report it to the Sheriff and they listed it as a predator attack for insurance purposes. Apparently the ranch foreman wasn't keen on officially announcing the mutilation.

I think when talking about cattle mutilations it is easy to slap the 'Natural' label on it. It may very well be of natural origin. But, it is different enough that ranch smart folks are shocked by it and notice some weird things associated with it. These are guys that for the most part are more likely to confuse Hemingway with Picasso, check email with the frequency I check my oil, and use more double negatives in their speech than a bad spaghetti western. But they can look at cow dung and tell you the general health of the animal and how long it has been since it did its business. They can spot a sick or injured cow in herd while riding in the cab of a truck. They are good hunters with a very good understanding of predators and their tactics and can track them. These guys are repeatedly baffled by this type experience. That is enough to convince me that a more scientific investigation on the phenomenon needs to be conducted.

 

[Kandinsky]

I wonder if similar forces to the Bennewicz case are in play? The Myrna Hansen account claimed aliens had a vats of human parts and engaged in cattle mutilation. This alleged account had some impact on Bennewicz' mental breakdown and seeded some of the disinfo accounts fed to him by Doty and Moore et al. I've long suspected her account was actually contrived and designed to inject disinfo into the subject.

I'm only thinking out loud here...is it conceivable that some element is still pushing the disinfo and using cattle mutilation to add material focus to the plan? This might go some way to explaining why the bodies are left on display in unusual circumstances. It also helps to explain the alleged evidence of terrestrial steel blades being used...in one case a blade was found in the body.

For those potentially involved in this scenario, it would serve an agenda of disinformation and likely be great for team-building. There's been a steady trickle of perception management contriving the case for 'evil aliens,' that goes back to the late 70s. AFOSI/USAF are often considered to be responsible. Could they be staging these mutilations to perpetuate that myth of the 'evil alien?' Just wondering...

 

[Angel of Ioren]

The trouble is that you make inaccurate, sweeping pronouncements that indicate otherwise:


You can't say with 100% accuracy that they can be explained away so easily just as the " it must be aliens from Uranus" explanation is not in any way 100% correct.
We know where you are "coming from", Angelo. You do not believe in a certain subject and then you make giant leap in logic to say .."therefore if i do not believe in it then it does not exist!". And this is borne out by your pronouncements.

I guess the difference is that I think that it is a giant leap in logic to think that aliens or the paranormal are involved. I can concede on the nefarious part, but I still think that unlikely. I can turn it around on you Phil and say that you believe in a certain subject and make a giant leap in logic to proclaim something. Maybe we should average it out?

 

[Xylo]

The phenomenon may very well have a natural, albeit undiscovered, cause. However saying that 100% of the cases can be explained by natural causes is more of a leap and proclamation than saying that there are some cases which cannot be explained with current and conventional knowledge.

I don't know what to think of mutilations, which is why they still pique my interest. Ornate crop circles used to pique my interest as well, until the hoaxers announced themselves. Now it's something to which I barely pay attention. I hope that the source of cattle, livestock and other animal mutilations is discovered. But until that time I will still be of the opinion that there may NOT be a conventional explanation with a natural source.