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"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013"

Infolad1

Purveyor of Hidden Things
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

These responses showed up in my email, or else I wouldn't even be back on here, but I have GOT to clarify some things in the great exchange I've been reading between tyder001 & trainedobserver for people who are interested in knowing.(And I've got to do it Reader's Digest style, I'm on a deadline).


As a result of the misinformed society that we have all been brought up in, people use the terms "soul", "spirit", "consciousness", etc. without having clear cut definitions of what they mean. The definitions I'm about to give are the same across all true cultivation systems, because the process is the same. The only things that are different are language & culture.

"Spirit" is not some imaginary construct. The word comes from the Latin spirare and means "to breathe". So when people say spirit, they're talking about the breath body. Your gross physical body is the densest part of the spirit, and is known as the Guph, or Khab in various traditions. you have subtler bodies interconnected with this body, and they're all powered by the spirare, the breath. Your left nostril breathes in negative ionic, or "yin" energy, your right nostril breathes in positive ionic, or "yang" energy. These oscillate throughout the day, and power all of our functions. This is what the Chinese call "Qi", the Japanese "Ki", the Indus Kush "Prana". It's the same principle as a car battery.

The body above the gross body is the electromagnetic, animating sensory body, known as the animal spirit, Nephesh, or Khaibit. This is powered by various external motive forces aka "emotions".

Above the animating breath body are the mental breath bodies, or spirits. They're know in various traditions by various names, such as Ab, Upper & Lower Ruach, etc. This is the realm of thoughts and images that act as matrixes that can come into gross physical manifestation.

Above these are three divine breath bodies, or spirits. The third one is your universal power aspect and is known as the Shekem, the Shekinah, etc. The second one is your universal knowledge aspect, known as Khu, Chiah, etc,. in various traditions. The first one is the world breath body or spirit, known as the Ba, Yechidah, Anandamaya Kosha,etc.

Above that is No Thing. Unconditioned consciousness/will, and undifferentiated energy/matter.

In other words, utilizing old William of Ocam's razor, every "thing" came from no thing. It's our true nature. The seer that can't be seen. It created itself first, and then created everything else.

Consciousness is what you are. It's immaterial, and not some mental fart from chemical reactions, as neuroscientists like to go on about. It's that which looks at the thoughts that pop up in the mental sphere, looks at the images. Looks at the body perceive sensations, urges, desires, etc.

When most people use consciousness, as I've seen it used in this exchange, they're just talking about the first two breath bodies & a third of the lower mental body. It's what most people call the persona (per sona= a thing through which sound comes through), personality (sound complex), individual (indivisible duality), what people mean when they say "me", "I", etc. This is actually what most systems call the "false self". It's an amalgamation of thoughts, images, urges, impulses, obsessions, neuroses,etc. that began when you first started believing that you were separate from everything else. And if you're in a culture that reinforces this
belief, that's where the troubles start.

What happens, to use a crude analogy, is that you (consciousness) drives this vehicle (the body) powered by a motor (the emotions). The problem is that due to various factors, you now think that you're the car and the motor ("I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm mad, well I think, my opinion is...oh damn, I'm dead". All lies).

All true spiritual ("Breath body") cultivation systems like Meditation, Qi Gong, Pranayama, Internal Alchemy,etc. are are techniques (technology) to bring the latent bodies fully online ( most people only function out of the lower two bodies and a third of the lower mental body).

This is how you verify this for yourself, by actually doing it. All people can do is point you in the direction of where to go, and give you good breath tech.

Part of the verification is various physiological and psychological transformations that occur along the way. William Bodri just came out with an excellent book called " The Little Book of Hercules", where he shows how Hercules' twelve labors are actually initiate code for the various physical transformations that occur when you first start. You can get it on Amazon. He also has various free downloads explaining this process and the ones above it, on his amazing meditation expert.com website.

All of these bodies, states, etc. can be directly experienced and verified.To say otherwise is to betray a serious lack of actual knowledge on the matter, and an attempt to sweep away with a broad cavalier stroke the experiences of tens of thousands of people in various cultures and systems.

If this hasn't been your experience, that's cool. But that doesn't invalidate what others have experienced, and that others can replicate (which is what true science (scire "to know") and philosophy (love of knowing) is supposed to be about).

This whole 2012 event is just the beginning of a new world cycle and energy signature. If all of your breath bodies are online, it's going to be interesting. If not, it's just going to be another day. And that's cool too. It takes all kind of people, at all kinds of different points in their development, to make a world.

Take what I just wrote as you will. I just wanted to do my bit to help folks that are looking like I was helped when I first started. For those that aren't looking, don't care, or think it's all BS, nothing to see here. Carry on. Buy Nikes. Peace.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Steve,

I was thinking on the drive home. We should agree on what we are disagreeing on.

I am saying that human beings are whole items. Their personalities are not detachable in the form of a soul of spirit but rather a part of the greater whole that supports it, just as humans are part of some greater whole. We are the universe which is a cause unto itself as far as we can tell. I firmly believe there is only one thing, the universe, and that only one thing is actually happening to it. We, by virtue of our position within creation or the system, if you will, have absolutely no visibility into what that is and what is actually going on.

I am arguing against world-views that see human beings as having some cosmic significance or views that promote the belief that humans can see out into the superset from our subset of space/time.

I am unsure at this point what part of that you own if any.

Peace, love, and all that jazz.
 

Hotkafka

Sanity is a default
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Trained. I think you have a well thought out model of consciousness, and that thanks to the soundness of the approach there appears to be a level of conviction there -however I'm having a hard time seeing beyond it's parallel to the Ol' 'Brain in A Vat' two-step, besides all it's elegant touches. I.e.

( P = any observation whatsoever)

  1. If I know that P, then I know that I am not a brain in a vat
  2. I do not know that I am not a brain in a vat
  3. Thus, I do not know that P.
And this obviously is reasonable enough.

However, there is a leap that is taken here when one attaches more power and meaning to the reductionist process than that of the process of experiential revelation/identification. I for one am not so sure about that leap.

It seems to me that both processes at their core essentially rely on an experiential reduction/or translation, the former process hanging its hat on what is evoked and proven through that process of deduction, i.e. an experience of applying method which produces an experience of perceiving repeatable results, and the later a shortcut of sorts which for whatever reason allows for a direct experience of knowing a thing, many things, all things, etc. -via transformation (or revelation). Perhaps it is true (and hard to argue) that devoting a greater degree of faith in the deductive process has proven infinitely more beneficial at least in terms of its usefulness to our present paradigm/version of humanity/manifest reality, (see the production of gadgetry, medicine, and technology) but it is another thing altogether to categorically disqualify experience as a means of obtaining equally valid insight into the nature of reality. Categorically disqualifying a direct experience because of its failure to meet reductionist logic and criteria just proves it can confirm its own bias -and that it can make "things" do tricks. In any case, this proposition that each position holds an experiential bias tends to get ignored in Cartesian logic. No one can deny our lens IS consciousness.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

... but it is another thing altogether to categorically disqualify experience as a means of obtaining equally valid insight into the nature of reality. Categorically disqualifying a direct experience because of its failure to meet reductionist logic and criteria just proves it can confirm its own bias -and that it can make "things" do tricks. In any case, this proposition that each position holds an experiential bias tends to get ignored in Cartesian logic. No one can deny our lens IS consciousness.
I'm not out to disqualify experience of any kind. The mechanism exists in the model for paranormal and anomalous events. It just says they are most likely not what they casually appear to be. That doesn't say they are not, it just recognizes that when something cannot be directly experienced it lends to a great deal of uncertainty.
 

Hotkafka

Sanity is a default
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Personally, I think consciousness is a cultural phenomenon, but anyway....

I'm not out to disqualify experience of any kind. The mechanism exists in the model for all many of paranormal and anomalous events. It just says they are most likely not what they casually appear to be. That doesn't say they are not, it just recognizes that when something cannot be directly experienced it lends to a great deal of uncertainty.
Ok, I give you that. Disqualify might not have been the best choice of words in terms of reflecting the subtlety of your position: however when you say "they are most likely not what they casually appear to be" you're extending a reductionist bias in that your conviction hinges on experience that confirms a material model of consciousness. We do not know where consciousness originates, many extend a bias as to where it does and in turn discredit those who think otherwise, mostly those whom cultivate these experiences through various practices. These people claim to have had a direct experience of consciousness, and they in turn report that consciousness is not limited to the brain. This is just another type of experiential bias. Of course in reaction to this view, on the reductionist side, we can produce tests and repeatable results that seem to prove the probability for such a proposition otherwise, but this to is in essence is confirmation that we seem to prefer experiences that allow us to produce and perceive repeatable results. Case being, this is just an "Elegant" experiential bias.

Anyway, that's probably a completely muddled mess of an explanation, but I'm in a rush... take it for what it's worth.
 

bbridges

Paranormal Maven
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

TO, TYDER, INFOLAD, HOTKAFKA, et all, What a great discussion! Kind of feels like an evening in a French Enlightenment era salon. TO, you and I have discussed your very helpful construct of perceiver/perceived and shared the Krishmurti statement of "the observer IS THE THING OBSERVED". I had the experience of attending several of Krishmurti's appearances in a small park in Ojai, Ca. back in the early seventies. He would sit on a straight-backed wooden chair on the small stage in the park and hold question and answer type exchanges with those of us gathered there. He was in his seventies, I'd say (whew, not that far off for me now!) and I can recall his resignation as he tried but failed to get across to most of us the profound but simple truth of that statement. I recall his passion as well, as he said, "Why can't you just see what is!" Thirty-five years later, it still dominates my musings. So simple, sooo confounding...
 

Infolad1

Purveyor of Hidden Things
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

TO, TYDER, INFOLAD, HOTKAFKA, et all, What a great discussion! Kind of feels like an evening in a French Enlightenment era salon. TO, you and I have discussed your very helpful construct of perceiver/perceived and shared the Krishmurti statement of "the observer IS THE THING OBSERVED". I had the experience of attending several of Krishmurti's appearances in a small park in Ojai, Ca. back in the early seventies. He would sit on a straight-backed wooden chair on the small stage in the park and hold question and answer type exchanges with those of us gathered there. He was in his seventies, I'd say (whew, not that far off for me now!) and I can recall his resignation as he tried but failed to get across to most of us the profound but simple truth of that statement. I recall his passion as well, as he said, "Why can't you just see what is!" Thirty-five years later, it still dominates my musings. So simple, sooo confounding...
Both Krishnamurtis (Jiddu & U.G.) were interesting characters. Interesting connection & interplay they had with each other. Like Gopi Krishna, they both would have been saved a lot of time & trouble if they had found someone who could actually do what they were talking about. Both were very good at calling BS on pretenders, I'll give them that.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Personally, I think consciousness is a cultural phenomenon, but anyway....
You needed a rim shot after that one.

Pardon me while I cherry pick and risk sounding mad as a hatter.

These people claim to have had a direct experience of consciousness, ...
Well this is what I'm talking about. Everyone is having a direct experience of consciousness. Some are aware that all they experience is their minds. Others, I think most, interpret their experiences as though they were experiencing the world directly. Under the default conditions a person mistakes their mind (their consciousness) as the real world. I keep harping on this because from this realization the breakdown of what I think of asthe illusion occurs. If both the perceived self sitting in the perceived world are not the originals in substance or form (for example: real light is not mind light) the nature of the real world is imperceivable and unknowable. This creates the conundrum that what we think of as material is obviously something else. It becomes a point of semantics and how many loaded terms you want to throw around. I think it can be reasonably argued that what is casually thought of as the real material world is more like what is traditionally thought of as the spirit world. An invisible, immaterial world where all the real work, real events, and real things exist as opposed to the illusionary versions that constitute our consciousness.

All of that really means that things are much different than what our limited perception and perspective allow us to experience. To me this has many implications worthy of considering. Not the least of which are our limitations as individuals and as a species (to say something about the whole cosmic significance business.)

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 PM ----------

TO, you and I have discussed your very helpful construct of perceiver/perceived and shared the Krishmurti statement of "the observer IS THE THING OBSERVED"... and I can recall his resignation as he tried but failed to get across to most of us the profound but simple truth of that statement. I recall his passion as well, as he said, "Why can't you just see what is!" Thirty-five years later, it still dominates my musings. So simple, sooo confounding...
I really appreciate our conversations and your point of view. That is just such a crystal clear way of putting it, isn't it? It really says so much. I stumble around the thing. One of the things that seems to have happened recently is that I've given up this search for the greater self or the true self. It really seems to me to be unreachable or more correctly an incorrect concept to begin with. The true human being is larger than its consciousness. Our true self being beyond consciousness. Or I could just be whistling in the dark ...
 
V

Voyager

Guest
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

You didn't insert time into the equation. I don't know about everybody else but my life has been a roller coaster ride of highs and lows. I remember when I was in my twenties standing on a beach at night, feeling connected and one with the universe. Fast forward and I'm signalling UFOs with a laser in Montana. Change is constant. Nothing is static. We cannot measure a non-material experience of consciousness. You cannot use the scientific method to measure that which cannot be measured. My view is this: There are two separate realities. There is the reality that Man creates, and there is the reality that is the manifestation of everything that exists. I believe it is possible to tune into that other separate reality. Necessity is the mother of invention.We created tools to survive. Cities are artificial environments and people have lost their connection with nature.
 

bbridges

Paranormal Maven
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Yeah, and what does it mean to choose a particular interpretation, since it is at best just that-a choice. In the hindu maps of consciousness, there is another step beyond 'cosmic consciousness, called the "void", that is all and nothing. Kinda hard to reach as I understand.
 
V

Voyager

Guest
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

I don't think any combination of words can describe it. We try to define reality but it is all relative.
 

Hotkafka

Sanity is a default
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

You needed a rim shot after that one.
Enter multicolored dancing bear tipping top hat and playing a banjo... Clickety clackety shoes. Yeah, leave it up to a psychotherapist to make a goofy statement like that. In any case, explaining it will take a little more time and energy than I presently have at the moment. Perhaps at a later date when I'm full of espresso and feeling super.


Well this is what I'm talking about. Everyone is having a direct experience of consciousness. Some are aware that all they experience is their minds. Others, I think most, interpret their experiences as though they were experiencing the world directly. Under the default conditions a person mistakes their mind (their consciousness) as the real world. I keep harping on this because from this realization the breakdown of what I think of asthe illusion occurs. If both the perceived self sitting in the perceived world are not the originals in substance or form (for example: real light is not mind light) the nature of the real world is imperceivable and unknowable. This creates the conundrum that what we think of as material is obviously something else. It becomes a point of semantics and how many loaded terms you want to throw around. I think it can be reasonably argued that what is casually thought of as the real material world is more like what is traditionally thought of as the spirit world. An invisible, immaterial world where all the real work, real events, and real things exist as opposed to the illusionary versions that constitute our consciousness.

All of that really means that things are much different than what our limited perception and perspective allow us to experience. To me this has many implications worthy of considering. Not the least of which are our limitations as individuals and as a species (to say something about the whole cosmic significance business.)


---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 PM ----------



Thanks for taking the time to stretch your explanation a bit more, however I'm pretty sure I think I understand what you're getting at. In essence, your explanation is still a brain in vat scenario -with consciousness representing the rabbit that gets pulled out of the hat, arising as a byproduct of body/brain processes, the whole of mind and awareness representing a closed loop. "The observer is the thing observed." Consciousness being the trick to initiate an investment in survival, something along those lines, but maybe you wouldn't go so far to propose any meaning at all. But ultimately, if I'm catching your drift, human consciousness is nothing but a creative throwaway. ..Or material grasping, or a system subset expression, the beginning of something not yet realized... I don't know, it's your baby, you'll have to fill in the blanks here.

However, the twist comes in your Supernatural counterplay. Placing humanity firmly in the realm of the Supernatural (along with everything else perceived and not-perceived) and proposing consciousness as a creative invention, a savior of sorts in its ability to reconstruct an orderly, tangible and perceivable illusion, is just an outright really cool reframe of the materialism perspective. In my opinion interjecting that reconceptualization deepens the materialism argument, which tends to suffer from its measured distancing from any suggestion of mystery at any level - i.e. that whole Blind Watchmaker buiz. If materialists were more comfortable adopting such a reframe, I think dialogue around the paranormal would probably be more productive.

But... What I think other systems propose in trying to cultivate a direct experience (Transformative, Transpersonal, revelatory experience) is a means for understanding the nature of experiential bias, as it places the responsibility for encountering the limitations of consciousness and its relationship to mystery upon the person. Understandably, you see the value of such a enterprise in different terms as you might see any experience as a dead end of sorts as it is the result of a misperception arising from manufactured consciousness - making it untrustworthy for anything but the elaboration of the exercise –however, with the Transpersonal folks, consciousness IS and the rest gets thrown away. There is no rabbit that gets pulled out of hat, it IS the life force and thing observed, and the experience is used as the measuring stick which confirms that. Persona, ego and the psychic complex is the savior and destroyer, a construction, similar to your model which recognizes consciousness altogether without having to resort to these terms. The absolute it seems is absolutely unknowable in your model, in the later Transpersonal perspectives, it is both knowable and UNKNOWABLE in that the experience of consciousness without boundaries obliterates all the usefulness of psychic constructions. I know you know all this, so forgive me if I'm boring you.

All in all each of these perspectives aren't so different. It's ultimately about connecting or rooting the essence of the human condition to an experience of consciousness -from where that consciousness originates, is located, and where it starts and stops is matter of perspective that appears to be informed through an experiential bias.

Personally I feel trying to explain or locate consciousness is the ulitmate boondoggle in that misdirects people from what is really important, acknowledging and embracing the mystery of being in the here and now. I have found that those whom have been able to take the time to care and nurture an understanding of self (and eventually of "other') in the moment, often end up unraveling an experience that answers those ultimate questions all on their own.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Yeah, and what does it mean to choose a particular interpretation, since it is at best just that-a choice. In the hindu maps of consciousness, there is another step beyond 'cosmic consciousness, called the "void", that is all and nothing. Kinda hard to reach as I understand.
I was speaking of recognizing that consciousness itself is just a small component of what makes up a human being. Its self importance perhaps echoed in human-centric philosophy.

I know I could be wrong but it really does seem to be me that the importance placed on the human personality as manifested in consciousness is somehow misplaced over a larger more deterministic component of the human being itself. It (consciousnesses) performs a function for the larger organism but it is itself not the driver it casually appears to itself to be. We may ask the question of self-inquiry, "Who am I." and journey to the point where we see this silent observer as "the real us" representing our soul, spirit, or true essence of being. I'm saying not so. It's just another component in the larger organism. Our real selves is this complete whole that our consciousness has no or very limited visibility into.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

Enter multicolored dancing bear tipping top hat and playing a banjo... Clickety clackety shoes. Yeah, leave it up to a psychotherapist to make a goofy statement like that. In any case, explaining it will take a little more time and energy than I presently have at the moment. Perhaps at a later date when I'm full of espresso and feeling super.
I apologize if that was taken as a flippant dismissal. I thought you were trying to be funny. No, of course, there is both the real phenomena of consciousness and the cultural trappings that society has erected around it. I see the ascension movement as mistaking the two.

In essence, your explanation is still a brain in vat scenario -with consciousness representing the rabbit that gets pulled out of the hat, arising as a byproduct of body/brain processes, the whole of mind and awareness representing a closed loop. "The observer is the thing observed." Consciousness being the trick to initiate an investment in survival, something along those lines, but maybe you wouldn't go so far to propose any meaning at all.
That's good. We are brains in a vat. Or more correctly, we ARE the vat and the vat is the planet Earth. Our brain/mind system creates an illusion of individuality and separation from it and each other.

I think there is a purpose for our individual consciousness or it would not be there. I think logically it must be there to benefit the entire organism and not as an end unto itself. I think human beings have some purpose within the system that may or may not be directly related to our possessing an individual consciousness. It may be that we and the other animal species on the Earth serve some larger purpose within that system that our consciousness only plays some supporting role in, otherwise it would be obvious to us and we would not be asking questions like, "Why am I here?". "Who am I?". "Where did I come from?" and so forth.

But ultimately, if I'm catching your drift, human consciousness is nothing but a creative throwaway. ..Or material grasping, or a system subset expression, the beginning of something not yet realized... I don't know, it's your baby, you'll have to fill in the blanks here.
It sounds a bit harsh when you put it that way. I would say it has as much importance as anything else in the system. It serves the whole, the whole does not serve it.

absolute it seems is absolutely unknowable in your model, in the later Transpersonal perspectives, it is both knowable and UNKNOWABLE in that the experience of consciousness without boundaries obliterates all the usefulness of psychic constructions. I know you know all this, so forgive me if I'm boring you.
No, you make an excellent point. Perhaps altered states of consciousness are possible that provide a reliable representation of the real world minus the constraints of the three dimensional individual template our brain/mind systems employ. I know of two people I have a great deal of respect for who claim that it is possible to transcend this limitation. I am apparently lacking in some way either through discipline, character, or genetic predisposition to achieve this however. But yes, I fear that this bit of myself that calls itself “I” has no facility to experience the absolute reality. Paradoxically, it is just as much a part of that absolute reality as anything else having being within it.

I feel trying to explain or locate consciousness is the ulitmate boondoggle in that misdirects people from what is really important, acknowledging and embracing the mystery of being in the here and now. I have found that those whom have been able to take the time to care and nurture an understanding of self (and eventually of "other') in the moment, often end up unraveling an experience that answers those ultimate questions all on their own.
That's what it is all about, an attempt to come to a better understanding of the self that is asking all the questions and whether the correct answers can even be recognized by it.

And thanks for taking the time to engage me in a conversation about these things. I appreciate your perspective.
 

trainedobserver

Paranormally Disenchanted
"Expert ET contactee: Half of humanity ascends to 5th dimension on March 21, 2013

This is pretty good and applies to the discussion about consciousness and the paranormal

 


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