Contactee Psychology

[PararealitySaint]

Haven't follow this real closely that last day or two so forgive me if this has already been answered. So, does that mean the Greys have been in fiction and even story since the 1800's? Show does that mean that somehow the human pysche is attuned to them making them most certainly a real force in human evolution? Or are you saying that since they are in fiction they most certainly were simply stolen by later ufo people either by osmosis or on purpose? Personally, I don't "believe" in the Greys but the work by Nigel Kerner is provocative and I would start there if I were to take them seriously. Anyway, sorry for the butt in.

My original point to Angelo was that Greys are not just a "Western" myth derived from some cultural identity crisis. They came out of the Middle East within their God System thousands of years before, and were even spoken about in the older than "Communion" cases I presented, in both Russia and Africa.

He then went on about my "making up" a notion for subconscious, or spirit driven abduction, and basically poo pooed it as if I was just playing around with some personal occurrence he had...Which by the way I never singled out or mentioned at all.

Then we were privy to how Betty and Barney Hill never explained Greys in their states, both hypnotically and other, and after proving that wrong, we are now back to some more defensive posturing....that is until I pray the original questions I had are answered.

But don't hold your breath on that one, I am just a "well wisher" who obviously stave's to far from "science" and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[trainedobserver]

Here is the clear explanation of what Betty And Barney Hill explained they saw that day...From their own words:

A better and more reliable source for the original story is the book Interrupted Journey, by John G. Fuller published in 1966. In that book, which includes the Simon transcripts, the Hill's do not describe the modern day popularized version of the Greys nor do they describe the aliens as shown in the movie version your photo came from.

Have you ever read Interrupted Journey? I think you would like it.

The book includes some of their drawings of the creatures which do have large slanted eyes however the modern Grey alien type does not have a large nose, typically wear clothing (much less military-like uniforms), and more importantly they do not behave like the Hill aliens reportedly did. It would seem that if the Hill aliens were the modern Greys then they've shed their need for clothing along with their noses. You can see where the typical Grey alien has evolved by tracking the Hill's alien though its evolution throughout the years of the story being told by various parties, websites, movies, and what have you.

Oh, I'd just point out I'm certainly not the first person to notice this or comment on it. I'm trying to remember who wrote up a nice piece on it years ago. Was it Kevin Randle, Chris and Gene? I can't remember.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

And your point is? I didn't ignore anything here Angelo, you did! I stated very clearly the point that there were Alien like GREY explanations long before the "MEDIA DRIVEN" identities you hold on to so much, and you were wrong.

Sorry.

And by the way, the last I looked....CASE FILES and Wiki ARE TWO DIFFERENT SITES!!!

You said that the Hills' description was the first. In an earlier post, I suggested you take a look at the wikipedia site regarding grey aliens. You seem to have ignored the part I copy and pasted.
Anyway, are you trying to convince me of something? You politely asked me my thoughts on this subject and I gave them to you. You obviously think my opinion is incorrect, and that's totally cool. We have nothing but ideas when it comes to this topic. To me, the best explanation is the one I have given. It does not mean it's right.
Who knows, it could be demons, or angels, or aliens, or the ghost of little baby Jesus. We don't know if those things exist. We do know that psychological issues and sleep disorders exist. That's the one I'm going with for now, until further conclusive results appear.

Cool?

---------- Post added at 01:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------

But don't hold your breath on that one, I am just a "well wisher" who obviously stave's to far from "science" and shouldn't be taken seriously.

That's not the problem PRS. The problem is that you're rude and argumentative. As I said, all this came from you asking my opinion. I gave it. Take it or leave it.

 

[tyder001]

Hmmmm, now when I say James Randi is blah,blah,blah you are quick to jump and point out that you respect him and maybe I'm not being fair. But you can say stuff like the ghost of little baby Jesus which is VERY disrespectful and yet you feel even as a mod that this is ok? Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm! Point is that when it comes right down to it we all respect and want others to respect "our" worldview.

The thing you would not have done unto you...do not do to others...The Buddha!

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Hmmmm, now when I say James Randi is blah,blah,blah you are quick to jump and point out that you respect him and maybe I'm not being fair. But you can say stuff like the ghost of little baby Jesus which is VERY disrespectful and yet you feel even as a mod that this is ok? Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm! Point is that when it comes right down to it we all respect and want others to respect "our" worldview.

The thing you would not have done unto you...do not do to others...The Buddha!

What's wrong with "the ghost of baby Jesus?" Tons of people have reported seeing religious images appear to them.

 

[tyder001]

Sigh! Ok Angel. Zing! Right ovah the ole head! I'm not gonna take sides in this but a little humilty and intellutial honesty is a mark of intelligence. "Good thing spellings not or I'd be in trouble.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Sigh! Ok Angel. Zing! Right ovah the ole head! I'm not gonna take sides in this but a little humilty and intellutial honesty is a mark of intelligence. "Good thing spellings not or I'd be in trouble.

Tyder, you seem to be sensitive today and you are on a mission to mention Randi, Darwin, Dawkins, Atheists, Fundies, etc any chance you get. I get it. You don't like that world view. It's fine.
Trust me, I'm not a moron. However, please tell me how I'm not being intellectually honest, because I don't get it.

 

[tyder001]

Trust me, I'm not a moron.

I know. I complimented you earlier on your intellect. That's what makes it so sad. Well, sad is a little to melodramatic. I'm not gonna nitpick here cause I don't really and truly have a dog in this hunt. I think Saint made some good points. You made some good points. The point I was "trying" to make was clear to me. But, I'll let it go since it seems humility and self reflection are in such short supply these days.


Three things cannot be hidden. The sun, the moon and the truth!...The Buddha

 

[Randall]

One of possibilities that seems to get overlooked is that the overwhelming nature of an abduction experience ( either positive or negative ) tends to instill in the experiencer, an automatic sense of belief in the content of the experience. For example if someone is abducted and told that they have been told to spread some message ( whatever ), the experiencer tends to believe that the message is true simply because it came from these seemingly advanced beings. Seldom do we see abductees take the next step and question the validity or truth of the information they are given. To use a sci-fi example, in Star Trek, The Final Frontier, members of the Enterprise crew are telepathically brainwashed into a sort of Stockholm Syndrome that leads them to believe that an alien is God. But Kirk doesn't buy in. He says he "needs his pain", and confronts "God" with the question: "What does God need with a starship?"

The point is that while Kirk sees through the facade, it didn't mean the experience itself was not real because others didn't. So perhaps, some experiencers have had a genuine experience that the critical minded among us have simply dismissed as a hoax because we weren't there. If this is the case, then what does the game the aliens are playing say about the psychology of the aliens? What are they trying to determine or accomplish by instilling humans with useless information and sending them back out into the community? If it is some kind of psychological experiment, how is it being monitored? Perhaps exploring these questions might lead to clues that are more useful than the "message" the abductees have been told to spread.

Other short comments and suggested reading:

http://www.ufopages.com/Reference/BD/Abductee-01a.htm

http://www.ufopages.com/Reference/BD/Contactee-01a.htm

 

[trainedobserver]

f this is the case, then what does the game the aliens are playing say about the psychology of the aliens?

Haven't you made a mistake by assuming that they are aliens? Doesn't that color everything else after that? I think you have to approach this from the standpoint that even the experiencers cannot tell you what they are. In fact some of these things firmly insist that they are not aliens at all. Something is happening. But what is it really? I'm not convinced that we understand the phenomena enough to draw conclusions about its origins or mode of operation. Doing so seems to lead folks down avenues they are reluctant to abandon. The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is probably the correct one.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Excellent points Rick and J.R.

 

[PararealitySaint]

A better and more reliable source for the original story is the book Interrupted Journey, by John G. Fuller published in 1966. In that book, which includes the Simon transcripts, the Hill's do not describe the modern day popularized version of the Greys nor do they describe the aliens as shown in the movie version your photo came from.

Have you ever read Interrupted Journey? I think you would like it.

The book includes some of their drawings of the creatures which do have large slanted eyes however the modern Grey alien type does not have a large nose, typically wear clothing (much less military-like uniforms), and more importantly they do not behave like the Hill aliens reportedly did. It would seem that if the Hill aliens were the modern Greys then they've shed their need for clothing along with their noses. You can see where the typical Grey alien has evolved by tracking the Hill's alien though its evolution throughout the years of the story being told by various parties, websites, movies, and what have you.

Oh, I'd just point out I'm certainly not the first person to notice this or comment on it. I'm trying to remember who wrote up a nice piece on it years ago. Was it Kevin Randle, Chris and Gene? I can't remember.

Whatever the book said, I quoted their own words.

 

[boomerang]

Somewhere in this discussion regarding appearances and methods of the abductors, I suggest we make room for something like Jung's archetypes. These are shapes, creatures, and paradigms that live in the unconscious minds of all humans, a kind of collective racial memory and maybe much more. I think Jung has one of the best takes on how our unconscious speaks to us that one may find.

My opinion, of course, and Jung doesn't solve this mystery. But I find his arguments relevant and compelling.

 

[trainedobserver]

I used the word "aliens" because it is convenient and because the experience itself is alien to the experiencer and seems alien in nature, but you are absolutely right, assuming that it is an explicitly alien ( ET or whatever ) phenomenon is a judgement that should be reserved.

They used to be referred to for the longest time as occupants. I like the term over saucer pilots or anything else. I think most UFOs are not occupied though as they behave more like unmanned drones or projections.

I know of one case where a woman was abducted by kidnappers posing as aliens and an investigation soon busted them. Last I heard the kidnappers were facing charges and getting sued.

j.r.

That is incredibly interesting. What are the details? Can we read about this somewhere?

---------- Post added at 09:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------

Whatever the book said, I quoted their own words.

Actually, didn't you quote an article written by researcher Billy Booth, which only quotes the description in part from Fuller's book?

I'm just saying there is more there because I've read the book many times myself. I haven't found my copy of the thing yet but I'll be glad to quote the entire passage I'm referring to when I do. I'll include the sketches as well if I can.

I think the discussion I was referring to about the evolution of the modern Grey is in Randle's The Abduction Enigma: The Truth Behind the Mass Alien Abductions of the Late Twentieth Century. Have you read that book by chance? No matter if you agree with the conclusions or not, it really is a must read for folks interested in this stuff.

The whole evolution of the image of the abductor is something Vallee talks about too I think. He goes back to Brownie and Fairy stories that have similar aspects to modern alien abduction stories but different imagery and language describing it.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Actually, didn't you quote an article written by researcher Billy Booth, which only quotes the description in part from Fuller's book?

No, I in fact quoted the direct words of both Barney and Betty Hill from their hypnotic sessions which come directly from the casebook files themselves. The actual quotes were copied verbatim from both Betty and Barney during their sessions. Once again, here is what was quoted EXACTLY as written down from their own words:

The entities were described by the Hills as "...bald-headed alien beings, about five foot tall, with greyish skin, pear shaped heads and slanting cat-like eyes."-- This was the very first mention in UFO folklore of the so-called "greys." The Hills were taken into separate rooms during their examinations. These "tests" involved both physical and mental procedures.

Again, this points directly to the "GREYS" as mentioned earlier and whether or not Fuller used the quote, or anyone, it makes no difference.The fact remains that this is what they said. Initially it was told that Betty was quoted as saying they had "noses like Jimmy Durante", and also there was mention of Nazi outfitted soldier like uniforms, but what is quoted above comes from both of their sessions under hypnosis.

I'm just saying there is more there because I've read the book many times myself. I haven't found my copy of the thing yet but I'll be glad to quote the entire passage I'm referring to when I do. I'll include the sketches as well if I can.

The point still remains that they quoted what looked to them as "Grey" aliens. The point originally made to Angelo was that Grey Aliens were reported long before the "modern Western media" took it over, and the idea of anal probing and medical procedures weren't just a "Western" media induced phenomena. I also quoted other cases that happened in the early 70's and 80's, where anal probing was admitted to have happened to people in both Africa, Russia and other Middle Eastern areas of the world.

I think the discussion I was referring to about the evolution of the modern Grey is in Randle's The Abduction Enigma: The Truth Behind the Mass Alien Abductions of the Late Twentieth Century. Have you read that book by chance? No matter if you agree with the conclusions or not, it really is a must read for folks interested in this stuff.

No I have not as of yet, but I will do so soon and thanks for the heads up on that one!

I am currently finishing the latest fairy tale.....Jacobsen and her torturous story of Herr Mengele and thus....God! As I have mentioned to most of you who've befriended me on this forum, I have studied History, mainly focusing a lot of my time on World War Two History, for going on 30 or so years now. I have studied directly from original German archival information out of both Munich and Berlin, having been privy to extensive friends on both sides of the water, and I can state beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Josef Mengele wouldn't have involved himself with a "Bolshevik" if his life or his work depended on it. His devout almost godlike worship of the Corporal, Adolf Hitler, and his Aryan purity laws which he never personally let go of, would have gotten in the way.

But even if this wasn't the case....

Mengele wasn't even close to the east during the last few months of the war. He was in fact captured by the Americans and was released in June 45' under the auspices of another name. He then spent four years working as a laborer in Bavaria (eyewitnesses have him there the entire time, working under the name Fritz Hollmann or Hollman).

It was told to me by friends of my Stepfather who were involved back then that he was told by operatives in the new German government that War Crimes Investigators were on his tail, and he left the country and was first seen in South America around early 49' and was documented by the Mossad around April of 1960. So unless he was a doppelganger, he was no where near the Soviet Union AS A FACT between the years 1945 and 1960. If as Jacobsen states, Roswell was caused from a crash of a craft designed by the Hortens in East Germany and flown there by "Dwarfed mutant humans" developed by Mengele in 46' or right before the crash in 47'....

You decide how much of a stretch this stupid story is.

I remember someone doing a dissertation on the causality of ancient Middle Eastern God's and the Grey influence driven modern after effects years ago in College, and why the abduction phenomena is kept so secret out there by many victims too embarrassed or ashamed to discuss it. I also remember when the same student started in on Herbert Schirmer's nonsense and the so called Reptillian abduction case, and I had to leave the room from fear that my brain would explode from all the bullshit.

The whole evolution of the image of the abductor is something Vallee talks about too I think. He goes back to Brownie and Fairy stories that have similar aspects to modern alien abduction stories but different imagery and language describing it.

Yeah, that and the Middle Eastern God legends noted above and some from the "Vril" supposedly coming above ground to capture slaves and take them underground, etc.

Honestly, I have a lot of trouble with all of it and cannot believe when people think I am crazy, when I state that all of it is somewhat Demonic in nature. I know most of you think that the concept of God is only so much primitive thinking, especially my personal belief in Jesus Christ and the Bible, but subterranean Lizard like people or Extra Terrestrial Grey Aliens who abduct humans for slaves, yet Fairy's and Brownies instead of Demons and Devils....Why is one easier to believe than my supposedly nonsensical musings

 

[boomerang]

As Vallee points out, human history is replete with anecdotes of high strangeness interactions with a wide variety of non-human entities. Their morphology is so endlessly variable, I think it would be difficult to draw a distinct line between the classic modern "gray" and similar anthropoids.

The one constant over centuries seems to be creatures reported to be of short stature--i.e. small. But even this varies.

 

[trainedobserver]

No, I in fact quoted the direct words of both Barney and Betty Hill from their hypnotic sessions which come directly from the casebook files themselves. The actual quotes were copied verbatim from both Betty and Barney during their sessions. Once again, here is what was quoted EXACTLY as written down from their own words:

The entities were described by the Hills as "...bald-headed alien beings, about five foot tall, with greyish skin, pear shaped heads and slanting cat-like eyes."-- This was the very first mention in UFO folklore of the so-called "greys." The Hills were taken into separate rooms during their examinations. These "tests" involved both physical and mental procedures.

What casebook files are you talking about? You are talking about that UFO Casebook website correct? Don't you realize that is exactly what I said it was. An article written by Booth that used Fuller's book as its source? Look at the end where he gives his source. Is there an earlier source for the Simon sessions other than Fuller's book? The (...) ellipsis in the quotes indicates that it is incomplete.

Initially it was told that Betty was quoted as saying they had "noses like Jimmy Durante", and also there was mention of Nazi outfitted soldier like uniforms, but what is quoted above comes from both of their sessions under hypnosis.

What is your source for this? I guess I may have to run down another copy of Fuller's book but I believe that no mention of the occupants were actually made until hypnosis. Surely there are some others who are reading this that are familiar with this case that could chime in and help clear this up.

The point still remains that they quoted what looked to them as "Grey" aliens.

I think that is a matter of interpretation I guess. I see it as just another typically unique description of UFO occupants. Like the UFOs themselves it is rare that any two are alike and that goes for the occupants as well. That is if you're going to look at the details.

The point originally made to Angelo was that Grey Aliens were reported long before the "modern Western media" took it over, and the idea of anal probing and medical procedures weren't just a "Western" media induced phenomena. I also quoted other cases that happened in the early 70's and 80's, where anal probing was admitted to have happened to people in both Africa, Russia and other Middle Eastern areas of the world.

Well, I think there is a great deal to be said for the standardization of the alien mythos through the modern global ufo community's and entertainment industry's use of modern media. One thing that has always struck me is the incredible diversity of ufo reports throughout history. To me, that fits more in to the demonic hypothesis if you're wanting to go with that.

 

[PararealitySaint]

[/I]
What casebook files are you talking about? You are talking about that UFO Casebook website correct? Don't you realize that is exactly what I said it was. An article written by Booth that used Fuller's book as its source? Look at the end where he gives his source. Is there an earlier source for the Simon sessions other than Fuller's book? The (...) ellipsis in the quotes indicates that it is incomplete.

Trained....Betty and Barney Hill just didn't have two sessions and then it was over with. They had over 2 years of this and Betty Hill changed her stories numerous times. My point was AT ONE POINT in the many years she spoke of this, that she mentioned the "GREYS" as if she had first hand knowledge of thus....

Here's a quote even from a well known skeptics rag:

Betty and Barney Hill: The Original UFO Abduction

"Betty's written description of the characters in her nightmare depicted short guys with black hair and "Jimmy Durante" noses. It was only in Barney Hill's hypnosis sessions that we got the first description of skinny figures with gray skin, large bald heads, and huge black eyes. After Betty Hill heard these sessions, suddenly her own hypnosis accounts began to describe the same type of character, and from that moment on, she never again mentioned her original Jimmy Durante guys. Many modern accounts wrongly state that her original nightmares also described grays."

So it wasn't the original descriptions of Betty that spoke about the "Greys" but it was his, and she later changed over to the same.....This proves my original point of the Greys to Angelo, and that's all I mentioned it for.

I don't know how many more sources you want me to quote here. The fact remains that every time I find some different explanation, no matter what site, reading material or even book (And by the way I was quoting an excerpt from Encounters At Indian Head by Karl Pflock and Peter Brookesmith by the way...which was a re-edited account of the EXACT words she used, including Barney's), they all explain the "Grey" story or developed explanation for what they looked like.

What is your source for this? I guess I may have to run down another copy of Fuller's book but I believe that no mention of the occupants were actually made until hypnosis. Surely there are some others who are reading this that are familiar with this case that could chime in and help clear this up.

Read above. You don't have to find a book by Fuller Trained. It doesn't matter. Fuller or Brookesmith or the Casefiles site, or the Skeptics, or whatever....they all talk of their eventual agreement that the creatures looked like Grey aliens in most of their sessions.

I think that is a matter of interpretation I guess. I see it as just another typically unique description of UFO occupants. Like the UFOs themselves it is rare that any two are alike and that goes for the occupants as well. That is if you're going to look at the details.

Again, they DIDN'T agree initially....Barney was the only one who described the Greys in detail. Betty decided to change her opinions of thus only after hearing Barney's description, and this after she thought they had Jimmy Durante noses and Nazi like uniforms. Either way, the fact still remains that they both eventually agreed on a "GREY" type alien as their best explanation for the look of these creatures....My point to Angelo.

Well, I think there is a great deal to be said for the standardization of the alien mythos through the modern global ufo community's and entertainment industry's use of modern media. One thing that has always struck me is the incredible diversity of ufo reports throughout history. To me, that fits more in to the demonic hypothesis if you're wanting to go with that.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this. I personally see the very tendency to hold onto this "abduction" scenario in its all inclusion state as Demonic in influence, no matter if you call them Greys, Lizard men, Aryans, etc. The fact still remains though, when they do happen, I very rarely have heard it being "wanted" by the victim...especially the probing, the metal insertions, the hybrid baby holding and having, and all sorts of machinations I could easily call "evil" in manipulation.

 

[PararealitySaint]

Sure, on the surface you could dump alien abduction into the "evil demon" category, and we could all go back to visiting witch doctors and leeches too. Religious belief does not integrate the reasoning required to understand that "the transports from hell" hypothesis is a purely subjective interpretation and therefore they will not have the benefit of considering other hypotheses that are in all probability much closer to the truth. You know reading the Bible is actually more interesting when you take the "religion" out of it.

j.r.

Actually, I feel the same way about the "E.T." explanation for the phenomenon. When you take the "religion" out of E.T. worship I find it much more fascinating. The "subjective interpretation" of an actual extra terrestrial has been wildly and over zealously used for too many years now, and it really should be put in the background for a more confluent, or reasoned theory instead.