Butch Witkowski/ Human Mutilations.

[trl985]

I'm also very interested in the biological implications of all this, but I have a few questions and comments. Firstly, I'm curious about how many physicians or other experts in biology are called in these occurrences. I appreciate that people in law enforcement have experience with crime scenes and bodies, etc...but interpreting effects on the human body takes a lot more specialized knowledge. As per my background, my undergrad degree is in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and I'm in the process of applying to graduate programs in Tissue Engineering. At one time I had wanted to go to medical school so I've spent a fair amount of time shadowing surgeons and observing procedures, that having been said:

People comment on how difficult it is to remove organs through small incisions. That really is not the case. I've seen several laproscopic surgeries in which two small incisions are made to insert the tools used by the surgeons. In this manner a gall bladder (admittedly not a large organ) can be removed in a minimally invasive manner. Organs compress and skin/muscle/etc. can stretch. It's fair to assume that humans who have the motivation and the resources to perform a mutilation are capable of doing the damage observed.

As for DNA sampling of humans and other species, sampling is as simple as collecting hairs or swabbing the inside of the cheek. There is no reason whatsoever that one would have to kill or take apart an organism in order to get a hold of its DNA.

If the matter is farming us for spare parts, this seems incredibly unlikely for several reasons. First of all, it is a big stretch to assume that beings from another planet or dimension would even be able to interact usefully with our tissues. Transplanting organs between humans is extremely difficult due to immune responses rejecting the organ as foreign. For that very reason research is directed towards being able to develop tissues unique to individuals at some point in the future. Any being capable of traveling to this planet or from another dimension would have to have a level of technology sufficient to overcome such hurdles in their own biological sciences. Aside from the problems of tissue compatibility, we have to wonder if their biology is similar enough to ours for them to even consider using us a resource. We may be so completely different that there is absolutely no use.

That's my little science geek rant, but bearing that information in mind, I can't help but think that mutilations are directed by more earthly forces, especially given evidence such as eyewitnesses to helicopters or scavengers. I really enjoy the Paracast, but Witkowski seems like another guest who has a lot more stories than evidence. We all want to know what's happening, but wild speculation isn't going to get us there.

 

[aNorthernSoul]

I would wager that this isn't about science, but about eating the parts of animals and people that might be tastier to an alien species than any DNA sampling.

I had this epiphany after paying a medical bill.

Needless to say, this isn't about hybridizing, nor does it seem even remotely benign.

I would most definitely agree with your final point, and that it doesn't seem to be about science though I don't think it's about eating either. So much of various paranormal phenomenon seems to suggest that it seems very much about our reaction to it. Could it merely be that? Garnering our reaction and/or adjusting the outcome of a particular experience based on it? Though, I still find it somewhat ritualistic and think some exploration into a possible connection to this idea would be interesting.

 

[Roger]

Difficulties in researching those databases and statistics makes me think that paranormal "investigators" should not be trained to investigate, but to manage investigation projects. This would include, for example, putting together a team of subject matter experts who can navigate the technical intricacies that inevitably arise, etc.

 

[SgtRock]

Great episode guys. I've been waiting for this one for some time. Now let us know if you hear from anyone telling you to lay off the subject.

 

[Schuler]

Hey there everyone.

That was a very interesting episode, and this is one of the best threads in the last few months, and I don't have a good explanation for the fact that I don't post in the forums more often. Also, the contributions of mr. Ecker and Mr. O'Brien were straight to the point and highly relevant.

I might be a little late on this one, since the thread seems almost dead by now, but the episode reminded me of another very intriguing Brazilian case, that mr. Witkovski didn't talk about, and that I don't know if Don and Chris heard of. I recently told about this to The 13 Skulls' host TJ Stewart, and he talked about this briefly on his show. It's not one of the most well-known cases, since there's little information about it, even in Portuguese. But I find it rather interesting for two main reasons - one, the fact that the victim survived; two, the fact that it happened right in the area I was living in, and I remember seeing it on the news back in the day.

In November 1995, in the small southern Brazilian town of Estância Velha, 56 year-old farmer Olívio Correia was found lying in the bush beside a dirt road without his two eyes, that seemed to have been surgically removed. He was alive, but couldn't remember what happened, and could not, at least initially, explain how or why his eyeballs have been... stolen. Or by whom.

The doctor who first examined mr. Correia said in his statement that "there were no ocular structures present, as if he had been previously enucleated by the time he arrived".

That case received considerable coverage in the mainstream media at the time. Initial theories ranged from UFOs and aliens to the hypothesis that the poor man got drunk and passed out so badly that his eyeballs could have been eaten alive by vultures without him regaining consciousness in the process.

Olívio did remember later, though, that he was approached by three men in a blue car. He said the men put a knife to his throat and said they "just wanted his eyes".

Estância Velha is right next to my hometown, Novo Hamburgo. It's a very small German-founded town whose economy revolves around small scale agriculture and a few larger leather tanning industries. Mr. Correia was a very poor man, and that might explain why the case cooled completely after rumors started to point towards the town's mayor and his wife. Allegedly, the mayor took part in a mysterious underground satanic cult.

If I remember well, investigations were suspended soon after those rumors began circulating, with no conclusive explanation to what had happened. The police said that most likely mr. Correia had an accident and was too drunk to remember.

I don't believe in the accident hypothesis. An accident could not explain the complete removal of both ocular structures, as confirmed by the forensic examination. But in all paranormal topics, I tend to lean towards more human, down-to-earth hypotheses unless it's really impossible to hold them up. And the fact that the investigations were interrupted when rumors began to point towards high local authorities is something that can't be unseen.

African-Brazilian cults are very uncommon in that particular area. Almost all the town's population is of German heritage, and of Lutheran protestant faith. But that also doesn't eliminate the possibility that mr. Correia was the unwilling donor of ritualistic material for some kind of violent magical BS.

Mr. Correia, in that sense, can be a very important piece of the human mutilations puzzle. One that points to the fact that humans, and not aliens, may be the ones that do the most horrific, abominable things.


Now you gentlemen must excuse me, for I have a Metallica concert to watch. 8) [FONT=&quot]See you later!
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[Christopher O'Brien]

Mr. Correia, in that sense, can be a very important piece of the human mutilations puzzle. One that points to the fact that humans, and not aliens, may be the ones that do the most horrific, abominable things.
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Thanks for reminding me of the Correia case, I'd forgotten about it. I agree, this case could be highly relevant to our conversation regarding the identity of at least one party of the the group of perpetrators behind the mutilation mystery. Good post, I'm going to do some digging on this case...

 

[Tom From Hong Kong]

Christopher, have you ever talked to Phil Imbrogno about the human mutilations that supposedly occurred durning the Hudson Valley flap? Did Mr. Imbrogno ever get behind those stories? Are they all hogwash? I understand that there were cattle mutilations also reported during that time.

Increasingly it sounds like some type of organized human (government?) effort is behind the mutilation phenomena, all in an effort to create a (false?) public impression of some sort. We are left with some unexplained mutilation cases, however, such as the Skinwalker Ranch, if that can in fact be verified.

 

[Schuler]

Thank you, Chris.

I was really near that case when it happened, not because I knew mr. Correia or anything, but because I used to spend a large amount of time in Estância Velha every week.

My girlfriend at the time was the daughter of Estância Velha's Lutheran minister, who was himself a kind of community leader. He had also been my teacher in school, so we were close friends. It was in his house that I first heard the rumors that there could be a secret cult whose participants would meet somewhere in the town; that the cult was possibly to blame for the violence against mr. Correia; and that investigations would probably hit a brick wall since the town's mayor, even if not directly responsible for the extraction of mr. Correia's eyes, took part in it.

I can't remember the mayor's name. Actually, there's so little information about it, but since I'm going out on vacation next friday, maybe I have the time to dig this up a little bit. If I have the time (and patience), maybe I'll even translate some of the few articles about it to English and show it to you guys.

There's a novel by Jerônimo Teixeira called As Horas Podres (The Rotten Hours), that is set in Estância Velha during the time of the incident. I guess it hasn't been translated to English. I've never read it, too. Maybe another goal for my soon-to-come free time.

Thank you once again.

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And oh, the concert was f*cking awesome.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Christopher, have you ever talked to Phil Imbrogno about the human mutilations that supposedly occurred durning the Hudson Valley flap? Did Mr. Imbrogno ever get behind those stories? Are they all hogwash? I understand that there were cattle mutilations also reported during that time.

Increasingly it sounds like some type of organized human (government?) effort is behind the mutilation phenomena, all in an effort to create a (false?) public impression of some sort. We are left with some unexplained mutilation cases, however, such as the Skinwalker Ranch, if that can in fact be verified.

No, I've never met or spoken with Phil. I have heard about these alleged case(s?) from the Hudson Valley region back during the 80s. I've never seen proof of the the reality of these cases and the first I heard of this was re: Don's work.

Something about the scenario seems out of whack. The drowning element, where the bodies were discovered etc. As I mentioned earlier, human cases of this type are undoubtedly terrifying to law enforcement. I'm sure if cases occasionally occur, they are hushed up and a lid is clamped down tight on them. Thank the goddess or whomever that these cases of this type are probably rare—at least in the West. God knows what actually happens in the Third World boonies.

 

[Red]

Christopher, have you ever talked to Phil Imbrogno about the human mutilations that supposedly occurred durning the Hudson Valley flap? Did Mr. Imbrogno ever get behind those stories? Are they all hogwash? I understand that there were cattle mutilations also reported during that time.

Increasingly it sounds like some type of organized human (government?) effort is behind the mutilation phenomena, all in an effort to create a (false?) public impression of some sort. We are left with some unexplained mutilation cases, however, such as the Skinwalker Ranch, if that can in fact be verified.

Chicky Greer's antics notwithstanding, I thought the Disclosure interview with Dr. Carol Rosin was interesting about the staging of a future war with ETs. I started thinking about the things that could be done to present ET's as a threat. Building an invading "alien fleet" would be prohibitively expensive and then you would have to create a lot of destruction to prove that the threat is real and they mean business. And in the end, you would have to destroy the fleet because you have to justify the expense of the space weapons you just built. Then I starting hearing whispers of human mutilations. I think you could absolutely scare the crap out of the public and gain their support for a prohibitively expensive weapons program if they thought that the aliens were randomly murdering humans in order to harvest tissue and doing said actions to persons that are still conscious.